C Berkly Catton - Spokane Chiefs, WHL (2024, 8th, SEA)

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I do feel like it's odd to give him praise for not being good enough to make the Team Canada.

Reinhart scored at a higher pace in a lower scoring WHL, which didn't lose players to the NCAA route nearly as often, and had more team success. Draisaitl also did more with less.

They are also late birthdays. They were older their draft seasons than Catton was.

Being as good as one of those two also would be a great career.

 

[Zarzh]

I do feel like it’s odd you picked guys with late birthdays to compare his season to.

Well there's not many scoring forwards coming from the WHL, it's not so much that scoring is harder it's simply that there's fewer scorers. I don't think it's blasphemy to compare the CHL leagues as a whole with slight caveats.

They are also late birthdays. They were older their draft seasons than Catton was.

Being as good as one of those two also would be a great career.

But they have tools he does not. Even if we include RNH in this comparison, he's bigger with better defensive tools and had a probably career altering injury.

Plus there's a 2 month age gap, not a 6 or 8 month gap between Catton and the others.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Well there's not many scoring forwards coming from the WHL, it's not so much that scoring is harder it's simply that there's fewer scorers. I don't think it's blasphemy to compare the CHL leagues as a whole with slight caveats.

But they have tools he does not. Even if we include RNH in this comparison, he's bigger with better defensive tools and had a probably career altering injury.

Plus there's a 2 month age gap, not a 6 or 8 month gap between Catton and the others.

What are these tools Reinhart has that he doesn’t?

Draisaitl, maybe so. Then again, I don’t think being worse than a top 10 player of his era is some big insult.

 

[WeThreeKings]

6th overall in Pronmans latest rankings, first player in his 3rd tier.

 

[Zarzh]

What are these tools Reinhart has that he doesn’t?

Draisaitl, maybe so. Then again, I don’t think being worse than a top 10 player of his era is some big insult.

Size, defense, versatility. You're comparing a player who fits in any system and supports teammates well, to a guy in Catton who still needs to learn to be an effective part of a system.

A great outcome would be Seth Jarvis who scored at about the same rate, a guy who can score when put in a good situation where he isn't leaned on too heavily.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Size, defense, versatility. You're comparing a player who fits in any system and supports teammates well, to a guy in Catton who still needs to learn to be an effective part of a system.

A great outcome would be Seth Jarvis who scored at about the same rate, a guy who can score when put in a good situation where he isn't leaned on too heavily.

Reinhart took a while to develop and Draisaitl was overwhelmed by the NHL pace when he started for the Oilers. It also took them both a while to develop as star players.

Every 18 years old prospect will have to adapt and improve the "skillset" you mentioned, Reinhart and Draisaitl did. Some will fail, other will succeed, that's the development part.

You need to evaluate their talent level and project what they will become 3 or 4 years from now. With Catton his natural ability to create offense and transition game is his bread and butter. He has a scoring instinct, great hands, he is an amazing playmaker that can also play with pace and play with high confidence. His game translate well to the NHL, he is not a leacher, he can create his own offense (also supported by the fact he is the leader in short handed goal). You mentioned Jarvis although they have similar physical traits and production I would say Catton has a higher skill level and Jarvis is more aggressive on the forecheck and tenacious.

Also if Catton develop into a Jarvis type of player who is not even disimilar to Reinhart at the same age that would be a great pick. I think people see his size as a huge problem, I see it as a huge opportunity and untapped potential as he will become stronger and faster when he eventually fill out, which will improve other parts of his game like his board game, skating, shot velocity. I think he will be scary good 4 years from now if he develops well. I could see him develop into a borderline superstar and maybe even franchise player.

 

[Zarzh]

Reinhart took a while to develop and Draisaitl was overwhelmed by the NHL pace when he started for the Oilers. It also took them both a while to develop as star players.

Every 18 years old prospect will have to adapt and improve the "skillset" you mentioned, Reinhart and Draisaitl did. Some will fail, other will succeed, that's the development part.

You need to evaluate their talent level and project what they will become 3 or 4 years from now. With Catton his natural ability to create offense and transition game is his bread and butter. He has a scoring instinct, great hands, he is an amazing playmaker that can also play with pace and play with high confidence. His game translate well to the NHL, he is not a leacher, he can create his own offense (also supported by the fact he is the leader in short handed goal). You mentioned Jarvis although they have similar physical traits and production I would say Catton has a higher skill level and Jarvis is more aggressive on the forecheck and tenacious.

Also if Catton develop into a Jarvis type of player who is not even disimilar to Reinhart at the same age that would be a great pick. I think people see his size as a huge problem, I see it as a huge opportunity and untapped potential as he will become stronger and faster when he eventually fill out, which will improve other parts of his game like his board game, skating, shot velocity. I think he will be scary good 4 years from now if he develops well. I could see him develop into a borderline superstar and maybe even franchise player.

Reinhart scored at a similar rate to Jarvis in a bad situation, and more in a good situation, they aren't particularly similar players either.

No his huge problem is he's a small player who doesn't play well in systems or use teammates well. There's very few players who had that issue in their draft year as centers, and fewer who had that problem as playmakers.

Transition game is the least translatable skill in regards to winning or even scoring consistently. He doesn't do anything that will translate easily, unless you'd count a Ryan Strome type of career as a huge win.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Reinhart scored at a similar rate to Jarvis in a bad situation, and more in a good situation, they aren't particularly similar players either.

No his huge problem is he's a small player who doesn't play well in systems or use teammates well. There's very few players who had that issue in their draft year as centers, and fewer who had that problem as playmakers.

Transition game is the least translatable skill in regards to winning or even scoring consistently. He doesn't do anything that will translate easily, unless you'd count a Ryan Strome type of career as a huge win.

Have you ever heard of player like Jack Hughes, Sebastian Aho, Matthew Barzal who are smaller player but are amazing at transition and that are able to generate offense. That's his range. He is not there yet but he definitely has the talent. I could also point out Brayden Point but Catton is more advanced than Point was at a similar age.

Also how in hell could you make the assumption that he cannot play in a system or use his teammates well? That is very random and contradictory for a guy leading his team in scoring and being the driving force on one of the best offensive line in the WHL. I think he would thrive even more if he played with more talented players.

If you want to look outside the WHL, he was also running the show at the Hlinka tournament. The U18 will be a very important showcase for him to expand more on that front.

 

[TLEH]

More important thing for Catton is that he isn't soft. He really isn't even that small. 5'11 in todays NHL is more than fine.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You'd think Catton is 5'5 with the way some people talk about him. He's 5'11 and thin. If he's 5'11 190 in five years this will be a non-issue.

He's not going to be built like Matthews. So what? There are many different types of good players. Some are forwards with below-average size.

 

[Faceboner]

You'd think Catton is 5'5 with the way some people talk about him. He's 5'11 and thin. If he's 5'11 190 in five years this will be a non-issue.

He's not going to be built like Matthews. So what? There are many different types of good players. Some are forwards with below-average size.

Even though Buffalo's system is filled with guys his size (savoie, benson, jjp,rosen) I'd still take him

 

[majormajor]

How would folks assess a game like this?



In case you want to form your own opinion first, I put my take in spoilers here:

Spoiler

This isn't enough motor to be a very useful NHLer, outside of the powerplay. I don't think Catton is too small. And I've heard he has good compete. But I've never seen that compete when I've tuned in and it's not in this game video, which is the only game video of his on youtube. So I'm wondering if I just missed it? I need to see him fully engaging in puck battles, and consistently using his speed to push back defenses.

 

[Playmaker09]

How would folks assess a game like this?



In case you want to form your own opinion first, I put my take in spoilers here:

Spoiler

This isn't enough motor to be a very useful NHLer, outside of the powerplay. I don't think Catton is too small. And I've heard he has good compete. But I've never seen that compete when I've tuned in and it's not in this game video, which is the only game video of his on youtube. So I'm wondering if I just missed it? I need to see him fully engaging in puck battles, and consistently using his speed to push back defenses.

I'm with you. I haven't seen the level of engagement others seem to compliment.

 

[Zarzh]

Have you ever heard of player like Jack Hughes, Sebastian Aho, Matthew Barzal who are smaller player but are amazing at transition and that are able to generate offense. That's his range. He is not there yet but he definitely has the talent. I could also point out Brayden Point but Catton is more advanced than Point was at a similar age.

Also how in hell could you make the assumption that he cannot play in a system or use his teammates well? That is very random and contradictory for a guy leading his team in scoring and being the driving force on one of the best offensive line in the WHL. I think he would thrive even more if he played with more talented players.

If you want to look outside the WHL, he was also running the show at the Hlinka tournament. The U18 will be a very important showcase for him to expand more on that front.

Barzal is 6"1.Hughes is a lot more talented, and we have yet to see it lead to consistent team success. Point you can squint and see it, but he's a ceiling raiser more than a floor raiser. Most of those guys have results which have underperformed their talent.

That's literally one of the most common scouting criticisms of him. Why hasn't he? He hasn't gotten the most chances but he hasn't looked good in any of them.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Barzal is 6"1.Hughes is a lot more talented, and we have yet to see it lead to consistent team success. Point you can squint and see it, but he's a ceiling raiser more than a floor raiser. Most of those guys have results which have underperformed their talent.

That's literally one of the most common scouting criticisms of him. Why hasn't he? He hasn't gotten the most chances but he hasn't looked good in any of them.

What about Hughes, Makar, and Fox? Or they don't count because they are defenseman?

There are a lot of these types of players (and Bedard too). Seems like it's a little bit silly to dismiss everyone who isn't Matthews size.

 

[landy92mack29]

what are you smoking? He's the best play driver in the WHL and uses his linemates very well making insane passes basically every shift. Dude backs dmen down deep into the zone with his skating and is elite at finding lanes whether for a pass or shot.

He's not small and competes harder than players a lot bigger than him, has ever since he played up in bantam AA as a underager

 

[Zarzh]

What about Hughes, Makar, and Fox? Or they don't count because they are defenseman?

There are a lot of these types of players (and Bedard too). Seems like it's a little bit silly to dismiss everyone who isn't Matthews size.

Well defensive transition games are different, those players have other traits, and they're more extreme cases.

Bedard for instance is a great goal scorer, with massively more innate talent. I don't see how he's relevant.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Barzal is 6"1.Hughes is a lot more talented, and we have yet to see it lead to consistent team success. Point you can squint and see it, but he's a ceiling raiser more than a floor raiser. Most of those guys have results which have underperformed their talent.

That's literally one of the most common scouting criticisms of him. Why hasn't he? He hasn't gotten the most chances but he hasn't looked good in any of them.

Again you are comparing Barzal size now and not as 18 years. Here's a refresher from 2014 and 2015 NHL Draft Combine Measurements.

Here's 2015 NHL draft

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2488519-nhl-combine-2015-full-results-measurements-highlights-and-top-prospects

Player	Position	Height	Weight (Pounds)
Sebastian Aho	F	5'11.25"	172
Mathew Barzal	F	5'11.25"	175
Anthony Beauvillier	F	5'10.25"	173
Anthony Cirelli	F	5'11.5"	160
Kyle Connor	F	6'1"	177
Vince Dunn	D	5'11.75"	187
Jake DeBrusk	F	5'11.75"	174
Travis Konecny	F	5'9.75"	175
Mitch Marner	F	5'11"	160

Here's 2014 NHL draft

NHL Combine 2014: Full Results, Measurements, Highlights and Top Prospects

While many NHL fans have their eyes tuned to the Stanley Cup playoffs, the next batch of stars is preparing for the upcoming NHL draft...

bleacherreport.com

First Name	Last Name	Pos	Height	Weight
MICHAEL	BUNTING	LW	5'11.0"	174
NIKOLAJ	EHLERS	LW	5'11.0"	162
ROBERT	FABBRI	C	5'10.25"	170
KEVIN	FIALA	LW	5'10.0"	180
WILLIAM	NYLANDER	C/RW	5'11.0"	169
DAVID	PASTRNAK	RW	6'0.0"	167
BRAYDEN	POINT	C	5'9.75"	160
NICK	SCHMALTZ	C	5'11.5"	172

Most good and star players would be considered undersized and weak by your standards.

He has normal size for an 18 years old. I have watched him many times and every time I am always frustrated by his teammates, the only conclusion I made is that he is probably playing with one of the team with the less talent in the WHL. His teammates are simply put not very good. He is the standout on his team. Does that mean he is the best prospect ever, no has a lot to improve but the raw talent is there, he does not rely on other to create chances and produce. When you evaluate a prospect you need to project and watching him in the WHL is not ideal because he is all by himself and he has a tendency to cheat and develop bad habits because of that. This is why when you scout players you need to watch them in different context and at the Hlinka tournament he was dynamite. He also shown a lot of flashes of superstar in junior. IMO the best indicator would be at the u18 when he will compete against his peer and with better talent around him.

In the end, he is a raw talent that will require development and coaching but his tools and upside are through the roof.

 

[dickiedunnwrotethis]

Reinhart took a while to develop and Draisaitl was overwhelmed by the NHL pace when he started for the Oilers. It also took them both a while to develop as star players.

Every 18 years old prospect will have to adapt and improve the "skillset" you mentioned, Reinhart and Draisaitl did. Some will fail, other will succeed, that's the development part.

You need to evaluate their talent level and project what they will become 3 or 4 years from now. With Catton his natural ability to create offense and transition game is his bread and butter. He has a scoring instinct, great hands, he is an amazing playmaker that can also play with pace and play with high confidence. His game translate well to the NHL, he is not a leacher, he can create his own offense (also supported by the fact he is the leader in short handed goal). You mentioned Jarvis although they have similar physical traits and production I would say Catton has a higher skill level and Jarvis is more aggressive on the forecheck and tenacious.

Also if Catton develop into a Jarvis type of player who is not even disimilar to Reinhart at the same age that would be a great pick. I think people see his size as a huge problem, I see it as a huge opportunity and untapped potential as he will become stronger and faster when he eventually fill out, which will improve other parts of his game like his board game, skating, shot velocity. I think he will be scary good 4 years from now if he develops well. I could see him develop into a borderline superstar and maybe even franchise player.

Great points.

 

[dickiedunnwrotethis]

Another player comparison:

Joe Sakic was 5'10" and 160 lbs in his draft year. After one year of pro he was 5'11" and 185 lbs. He finished his career at 5'11" and 195 lbs. Note Sakic played much in a very different NHL where size and strength mattered more due to prevalent clutch and grab tactics, particularly in the dead puck era.. Size concerns are overblown.

 

[TLEH]

How would folks assess a game like this?



In case you want to form your own opinion first, I put my take in spoilers here:

Spoiler

This isn't enough motor to be a very useful NHLer, outside of the powerplay. I don't think Catton is too small. And I've heard he has good compete. But I've never seen that compete when I've tuned in and it's not in this game video, which is the only game video of his on youtube. So I'm wondering if I just missed it? I need to see him fully engaging in puck battles, and consistently using his speed to push back defenses.

The people who watch the WHL constantly have seen the compete. It’s an opinion I’ve formulated after watching 10+ games of his. This game is also from October. Like 50 games ago. Lot of development since then. I really don’t watch much YT when it comes to prospect so not sure what’s out there on him.

 

[coooldude]

Another player comparison:

Joe Sakic was 5'10" and 160 lbs in his draft year. After one year of pro he was 5'11" and 185 lbs. He finished his career at 5'11" and 195 lbs. Note Sakic played much in a very different NHL where size and strength mattered more due to prevalent clutch and grab tactics, particularly in the dead puck era.. Size concerns are overblown.

There are always outliers and I'm not a Catton hater. But what we really need are the total #s of first round picks at, say, 5'11" or shorter and 170 or lighter, and then see how many of them became Joe Sakic and how many didn't.

Ideally we'd also see this for the first, say, three rounds, or getting greedy, all rounds.

 

[Zarzh]

Again you are comparing Barzal size now and not as 18 years. Here's a refresher from 2014 and 2015 NHL Draft Combine Measurements.

Here's 2015 NHL draft

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2488519-nhl-combine-2015-full-results-measurements-highlights-and-top-prospects

Player	Position	Height	Weight (Pounds)
Sebastian Aho	F	5'11.25"	172
Mathew Barzal	F	5'11.25"	175
Anthony Beauvillier	F	5'10.25"	173
Anthony Cirelli	F	5'11.5"	160
Kyle Connor	F	6'1"	177
Vince Dunn	D	5'11.75"	187
Jake DeBrusk	F	5'11.75"	174
Travis Konecny	F	5'9.75"	175
Mitch Marner	F	5'11"	160

Here's 2014 NHL draft

NHL Combine 2014: Full Results, Measurements, Highlights and Top Prospects

While many NHL fans have their eyes tuned to the Stanley Cup playoffs, the next batch of stars is preparing for the upcoming NHL draft...

bleacherreport.com

First Name	Last Name	Pos	Height	Weight
MICHAEL	BUNTING	LW	5'11.0"	174
NIKOLAJ	EHLERS	LW	5'11.0"	162
ROBERT	FABBRI	C	5'10.25"	170
KEVIN	FIALA	LW	5'10.0"	180
WILLIAM	NYLANDER	C/RW	5'11.0"	169
DAVID	PASTRNAK	RW	6'0.0"	167
BRAYDEN	POINT	C	5'9.75"	160
NICK	SCHMALTZ	C	5'11.5"	172

Most good and star players would be considered undersized and weak by your standards.

He has normal size for an 18 years old. I have watched him many times and every time I am always frustrated by his teammates, the only conclusion I made is that he is probably playing with one of the team with the less talent in the WHL. His teammates are simply put not very good. He is the standout on his team. Does that mean he is the best prospect ever, no has a lot to improve but the raw talent is there, he does not rely on other to create chances and produce. When you evaluate a prospect you need to project and watching him in the WHL is not ideal because he is all by himself and he has a tendency to cheat and develop bad habits because of that. This is why when you scout players you need to watch them in different context and at the Hlinka tournament he was dynamite. He also shown a lot of flashes of superstar in junior. IMO the best indicator would be at the u18 when he will compete against his peer and with better talent around him.

In the end, he is a raw talent that will require development and coaching but his tools and upside are through the roof.

Catton isn't by himself, he plays on a team that's equal or better than most top prospects. This just goes back to him cheating for offense, and a transition games being less impactful on winning and difficult to play with.

Are you seriously trying to hype up a prospect as a superstar because he had a good not great Ivan Hlinka in his draft year as (I'm 99% sure) the oldest player on his team? Wake me when he does something at the U-18s at least.

Yes, guys like Fiala, Schmaltz, and even Nylander are less impactful on winning in real life than their point totals or salary suggest. I don't understand how this is a point of contention.

 

[Boonk]

Catton isn't by himself, he plays on a team that's equal or better than most top prospects. This just goes back to him cheating for offense, and a transition games being less impactful on winning and difficult to play with.

Are you seriously trying to hype up a prospect as a superstar because he had a good not great Ivan Hlinka in his draft year as (I'm 99% sure) the oldest player on his team? Wake me when he does something at the U-18s at least.

Yes, guys like Fiala, Schmaltz, and even Nylander are less impactful on winning in real life than their point totals or salary suggest. I don't understand how this is a point of contention.

Literally only Conner Roulette is the only other player worth a damn on that Chiefs roster and hes not the line driver at all despite being an overager. He has 9 less goals and is 8 points behind Catton for team lead in scoring. 97pts as an overager vs his 105 pts draft eligible team mate. The 3rd leading scorer has like 68pts. Huh, doesnt seem like Catton is being carried now does it?

Also, if those top 6 NHLers that you try so hard to discredit as "not winners" (lol btw) are the types of players Catton is being compared to, it seems like hes in pretty good company you are aware he played a whole season of hockey after the Ivan Hlinka too right? You should probably watch some games.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Catton isn't by himself, he plays on a team that's equal or better than most top prospects. This just goes back to him cheating for offense, and a transition games being less impactful on winning and difficult to play with.

He is playing with overagers on his line that never had above ppg in their whl career before this year. The next best forward is at 33 pts. His team stink. Especially the defenders that can barely transition the puck which make them rely on their forward to move up the puck. He is clearly the best forward on his team by a landslide. He is not less impactul, he is heavily relied upon. How can you say with a straight face that he is less impactful when he is at 49 goals and 105 pts with one of the best PPG for a draft eligble player from the WHL. That does not make any sense at all. Unless you expect him to produce at similar pace to Bedard and score 70 goals+ and above 140pts. In that case he would be considered generational.

Are you seriously trying to hype up a prospect as a superstar because he had a good not great Ivan Hlinka in his draft year as (I'm 99% sure) the oldest player on his team? Wake me when he does something at the U-18s at least.

No, I am not hyping him up. I am just outlining his obvious skillset and talent. He was by far the best talent at the Hlinka for team Canada. You can diminish it as much as you want it's still a fact. I am not waking you up, you are already dead sleeping on him.

Yes, guys like Fiala, Schmaltz, and even Nylander are less impactful on winning in real life than their point totals or salary suggest. I don't understand how this is a point of contention.

I am not sure if you are being serious or just trolling at this point. Any draft pick that develop and produce at similar pace than Fiala or Nylander at the NHL level would be a huge success for the team that drafted him. Unless you have clearly delusional view on prospect but there won't be more than 5 players at best that should develop as over ppg forward from this draft and have similar careers to them. At this point, I truly believe you are just taking the piss with me and arguing just for the sake of it.