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- Dec 28, 2015
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C Auston Matthews (2016, 1st, TOR) VII
- Thread starter Stolie the Goalie
- Start date
Kamiccolo
Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
There is 0 argument to be made that he is not the same level prospect, if not a better one. More complete player who outscored him in every league as they developed. You can't fault him for not being old enough for the draft.
Now he may not turn out as good as him, but he is undeniably the same level of prospect.
HockeyGuruPitka
Registered User
What separates Matthews in my mind is his compete. Hes always working to gain possession and when he has it, its on a string. This is a prototypical Babcock player.
Yup. Extremely talented, extremely smart and extremely hard-working. Kid's very very special. And in my opinion, being coached by Babcock is what's going to take him to that next level and actually reach his full potential.
Don't want to stir anything, but I was randomly scurrying around for Matthews stuff and I thought this quote from a scout of a Canadian team before the lottery was interesting.
Royal Thunder
Frolunda Mode
- Feb 21, 2012
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Man Bear Pig
Registered User
That quote has been around for a while(the one about how much better he is vs Eichel). We don't need him to be miles ahead of Eichel. I'll gladly take a #1 center who can dominate in every zone and put up some points. If Matthews can replicate what Eichel did in his rookie campaign, I'll take it.
I hope it is true, but I think it is just one very over the top scout, who was either very high on Matthews, and also quite low on Eichel. I mean, what would Matthews have to do this year for that quote to look somewhat reasonable? Be a ppg player? Have high-end D and be a 70 point guy? Would love for either of those to happen, but I'm not confident on that happening in year one. Eichel had a rookie season that compares quite evenly with Tavares.
Either way, I hope we get a great rivalry out of it, both teams have amazing young talent, and owners dedicated to spending.
Sundinisagod
****
I'd like to see a scout attach his name to that quote. It's pretty ridiculous to claim either one couldn't carry the other's skates...
skates only weigh a lb or two, both look strong enough to carry em.
It's a saying meaning that he believes that Matthews is far, far better than Eichel.
However, what we should also keep in mind is that just because a scout says something, it doesn't mean it's true and it's possible or even likely that another, just as reputable scout has an opinion that's the complete opposite.
However, what we should also keep in mind is that just because a scout says something, it doesn't mean it's true and it's possible or even likely that another, just as reputable scout has an opinion that's the complete opposite.
HockeyGuruPitka
Registered User
After watching Matthews at the world championships and Eichel last season id define both players as the following
Matthews is a work horse that is always on the puck at both ends of the ice and never quits on a play. Hes not one to stand around and watch, hes a player that will dictate the pace of the play and mostly everything will flow through him. Hes already a player that can be trusted in the defensive zone. He has great ability to strip players of the puck and good manoeuvrability in the corners. His offensive style is more of quantity then quality. Constantly moving and passing taking advantage of any chance that may result in a goal/assist. He has a good shot and good vision. He doesnt seem to have that ability to analyse a play and thread the needle. He usually uses his speed to force the defence out of position in order to open space for team mates.
Eichel is an explosive offensive dynamo. Hes a player that will slither his way into open areas and quick strike. He uses his speed an explosiveness to throw defenders off. His skating ability allows him to create cross seam plays and/or explode passed a defender. If there isnt a lane he has the ability to score from any area of the offensive zone. Fantastic ability to gain the zone. At this point his defensive game is still under construction, and has been know to fall idle during plays. Watching instead of battling for the puck. He has been known to take gambles to put offence before defence. These are things that will be cured with time
If i were to compare either to proven NHL stars Matthews would be Zetterberg where Eichel would be Seguin. I'd say toews/kopitar for Matthews however he has yet to play a single game in the NHL and is a long ways away from getting that type of praise.
Matthews is a work horse that is always on the puck at both ends of the ice and never quits on a play. Hes not one to stand around and watch, hes a player that will dictate the pace of the play and mostly everything will flow through him. Hes already a player that can be trusted in the defensive zone. He has great ability to strip players of the puck and good manoeuvrability in the corners. His offensive style is more of quantity then quality. Constantly moving and passing taking advantage of any chance that may result in a goal/assist. He has a good shot and good vision. He doesnt seem to have that ability to analyse a play and thread the needle. He usually uses his speed to force the defence out of position in order to open space for team mates.
Eichel is an explosive offensive dynamo. Hes a player that will slither his way into open areas and quick strike. He uses his speed an explosiveness to throw defenders off. His skating ability allows him to create cross seam plays and/or explode passed a defender. If there isnt a lane he has the ability to score from any area of the offensive zone. Fantastic ability to gain the zone. At this point his defensive game is still under construction, and has been know to fall idle during plays. Watching instead of battling for the puck. He has been known to take gambles to put offence before defence. These are things that will be cured with time
If i were to compare either to proven NHL stars Matthews would be Zetterberg where Eichel would be Seguin. I'd say toews/kopitar for Matthews however he has yet to play a single game in the NHL and is a long ways away from getting that type of praise.
Kamiccolo
Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
So can someone explain why Matthews is looked at as less offensively gifted than Laine? I even believe Matthews has just as good of a shot. I feel like Laine is so good that some people try and prop him up so he doesn't get under rated, and therefore people will say "His shot is the best".
Look at these highlights from the two. While Laine seems to be more inclined to find open ice in the slot and shoot (He'll need a setup guy with him and I'm not sure how well this will work in the NHL), Matthews is hounding the puck, making the plays himself.
One seems to be a complimentary piece, the other a driving player.
Their shots are really really similar, and Matthews brings so much more. I don't understand how there has been such a debate.
Look at these highlights from the two. While Laine seems to be more inclined to find open ice in the slot and shoot (He'll need a setup guy with him and I'm not sure how well this will work in the NHL), Matthews is hounding the puck, making the plays himself.
One seems to be a complimentary piece, the other a driving player.
Their shots are really really similar, and Matthews brings so much more. I don't understand how there has been such a debate.
Solid analysis. I'd call Matthews shot and vision better than 'good', but other than that I agree.
I think both players have the potential to be better than Zets and Seguin respectively, but I'm assuming those are stylistic comparisons.
WTFMAN99
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- Jun 17, 2009
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HockeyGuruPitka
Registered User
youre right in that the tools are similar, however its how either player uses their shot. This is why there is the center vs winger debate and why Matthews ultimately went 1st. Matthews doesnt have the same opportunities as Laine to sneak into open space and snap home shots/one timers. Hes more heavily relied on to gain possession and get the puck to his wingers. If you moved Matthews to wing and had him play similarly to Laine you would see similar results. However if you moved Laine to center it would be a disaster. I do believe though that Laine is more gifted offensively then Matthews, however its by a very slim margin. Matthews play at both ends of the ice makes him leaps and bounds more valuable then Laine.
I performed an analysis of this before. The red shot to green shot ratio is significantly skewed towards green shots for Matthews's goals. That is, the vast majority of the goals he scores are off high quality scoring chances, ones that generally only occur a couple of times a match. That is, if Matthews has 3 shots on goal on average(A pretty normal amount), how many of those will be green shots? If I was a betting man, I'd predict that to be at well below 1 on average.
He shoots close to the net, which in general is a very good thing if you are able to pull this off. Connor McDavid actually had the shortest average shooting distance for his shots this past season, and we know how good of a player he is. Sidney Crosby and several other high caliber players also have a low average shooting distance. However, what this also means is that you have to be an extremely good player to regularly shoot so close to the goal. While it's possible that Matthews is going to be able to join that group of players, getting close enough to score goals like those ones in NLA is not going to be nearly as easy to do in NHL. In addition, if an option to shoot from afar just doesn't exist for Matthews, that's one less thing for the defense to worry about.
In general, the question would be this: "If Matthews's shot is so good, why are practically none of his goals scored from further away?" Or is it that he just cannot generate as many shots on goal? But in that case, if 2 players have the same shooting percentage but one generates 5 shots on goal while the other generates 3, one player is going to score 50 goals while the other scores 30. This actually is a big reason for Ovechkin scoring so many goals - His shot generation is off the charts and far and away the highest in NHL. His actual shooting % doesn't come anywhere near players like Stamkos or Benn, for instance.
Personally, I'd like to see Matthews's ability in scoring consistently from further away. When you're so close, how good your shot is hardly matters. All sorts of players can bat in a rebound or snap shot a pass when a couple of feet away from goal. Another thing that's missing is a one timer. How many one timers are even in that video that you linked? Follow-through: How many goals did a player like Eberle miss out on due to not having a proper one timer?
Here are my reasons for having the opinion I do.
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HockeyGuruPitka
Registered User
It is stylistically. My first thoughts went to Toews/Kopitar for Matthews however without i single NHL game played i found it hard to actually make that assertion.
With that said Matthews and Eichel are both going to be players that we will be comparing other prospects to in the future. These are guys that will find their own lane.
Kamiccolo
Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
Interesting. However is MAtthews not praised for his elite skating edge work? He has the size, he has the skating, and the IQ, why can't he get close to the net in the NHL?
I'd say it's more likely he can work into the slow with the puck in the NHL than someone is going to give Laine space in the slot to shoot.
Randy Randerson
Registered User
If I was guessing at the reason that his average shooting distance is so close and scores so many goals from in tight, it's probably because at every level he has played so far, he's been able to get to the front of the net for a higher quality chance so easily at every level he's played so far so why bother shooting from the perimeter? He went to a men's pro league last year and was the Rookie of the Year, plus a runner up for the MVP. In his USHL time, he was setting records and at least among the top few players, maybe the best.
You also cite that some of the NHL's top players have extremely short average shooting distances, so Matthews having the same seems like a good thing to me. Maybe he'll have to adjust as his competition gets better, he's almost assuredly not going to be a top 2-3 player in the NHL and his average competitor will be MUCH better, but there's still plenty of reason to believe that he'll be among the league's elite so he should still be able to get inside with his speed/power combo. And if he has to adjust, his shot certainly seems up to the challenge.
Side note: watching the Laine isolation vids, he seems to take shots from anywhere - and while that generates some unreal goals when he picks a corner from 50 feet with a snap shot, it also wastes alot of possession on the ones that don't go in
Yes, McDavid certainly uses his skating to get so close to the net in a successful manner. However, that has nothing to do with the player's -shot-. McDavid's shot by consensus is relatively mediocre. However, he's a brilliant player and was on pace for almost 30 goals.
Now, whether I'd be as confident in Matthews's ability to even be able to do that as successfully as with McDavid, I'm not so sure. I'm also not sure why the discussion suddenly shifted away from specifically the shot, which is the only thing I was attempting to talk about.
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To #1: Yes, I completely agree. It isn't necessarily a negative, but I can't just think "well this should be the case" if he hasn't shown he can do it.
To #2: That's true in a way. Having a short average shooting distance is a very good thing. The wonder is in whether he's able to pull this off as well in NHL.
To #3: His shooting % was 14.1% in the playoffs. That's pretty good for "taking shots from anywhere".
For the record, Auston Matthews averaged 3,58 shots per game and had 18,60 shooting %. Considering the quality of all sorts of random players that had shooting %s in the range of 20+ with one having 26 shooting % over 49 games, I can't help but assume that this shooting % will come plummeting down. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.
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Generating and scoring on green shots is a positive thing, not a negative. Most goals are scored on green shots, so players that can generate more of them will score more goals. Its not like Matthews has been struggling to score. He set records in the USNDP and let a mens league in goals per game at 18 this year. He also scored the same amount of goals as Laine at the WJC, and one less at the WC.
There is literally nothing negative about that green shot stat. Auston Matthews is an elite goal scorer.
There is literally nothing negative about that green shot stat. Auston Matthews is an elite goal scorer.
Randy Randerson
Registered User
#1 - I think Matthews has shown an ability to do it everywhere that he's played though, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he can continue until he proves otherwise. Even if he can't, he does have tools to adapt
#2 - time will tell, I've got faith
#3 - I didn't mean that to knock Laine, he might have the best release for an NHL prospect since Ovechkin so I understand why he uses it alot. Some of the shots he takes in his iso videos are just really low percentage floaters on net where there were passes available to wait on something better, so I think he'll have to adapt as well. 14.1% is anomalously high though, you would think, and maybe part of the reason he made a run up the draft boards in the second half of the year?
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You are correct, but this isn't about goal-scoring, it's about "shot".
Speaking of WHCs, one thing that I found surprising is that Matthews was so far down in the "total shots" category.
Goal scoring is about shot though. Matthews has an elite shot, thats why he scores so many goals.
Crawford, who has seen the shot way more than any of us, compared his release to Sakic.
The shot is one of his (many) strengths. Is it better or worse than Laine? Who cares. Its better than most players.
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