C Aleksander Barkov - Tampere Tappara, FEL (2013 Draft) - Part II

[Juxtaposer]

I don't see the nastiness of Joe Thornton in him. Barkov doesn't shy away from physical play, but he isn't as mean as Thornton. I've always liked the Anze Kopitar comparisons. Excellent defensively, amazing hands, high hockey IQ, strong with the puck, but isn't the best skater in terms of explosiveness and speed.

I see Joe Thornton (current Joe Thornton, not 100-point Joe Thornton, although this incarnation is the superior player) in him, but I wouldn't argue with a Kopitar comparison. Big and hulking, average skating and quickness, elite defensive play, great vision and hockey IQ, extremely hard to knock off the puck-- essentially what you're saying. I'd agree that he seems to be a bit more of a low-key personality than Joe.

 

[SoupyFIN]

SM-liiga will take a break due to international games next week. The men, the U18's and the U20's will all play in a tournament, but Barkov's going to rest.

They wanted him on the men's team though:

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/jaakiekk...98386/tappara-evasi-barkovin-paasyn-leijoniin

Tappara asked the national team management not to choose Barkov to the team and let him rest instead. Team GM Jari Kurri says it's understandable due to the heavy game load but that he's regarded very highly by the men's team's management. My guess is that he'll debut in the men's team in the WC.

Would be pretty impressive if he could make the team as a 17yo without taking part in any of the EHT's.

Even if he was dead tired after the long season, he'd still be hell of a lot better than any of Kummola's saunabuddies, Pyörälä for instance to name one.

 

[Pellegrino]

You're complitely wrong... FEL is now stronger than ever. Back in the days there was couple of teams who had stacked roster and star players on that team but after that there was an enormous drop. There was many very weak teams to stack points against. You might e right that FEL might not have absolute stars anymore but the depth is much better nowadays. Competition is much harder for playoff spots. Worst team can beat best team pretty easily.

To be honest, both FEL and SEL are worse now than 10-15 years ago due to KHL. You could also argue that the better depth might be an illusion as the best players in the league are worse than before (so many play in KHL now), and the amount of top top players in the league is also smaller. That makes the bottom/depth players look better compared to the leagues top players.

Yet, that doesn't mean that today's FEL and SEL are crap leagues, but they are not as strong as they used to be.

As for the young players. I've been on this message board for years and seen so many Finnish prospects getting hyped by Finnish fans, but in the end they actually rarely succeed in the NHL. That's quite a contrast from SEL prospects, who tend to succeed in the NHL more often. That's one of the reason I just can't take this "FEL and their prospects are almost as good as SEL"-thesis seriously. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong in the future though.

 

[Jussi]

You're completely wrong... FEL is now stronger than ever. Back in the days there was couple of teams who had stacked roster and star players on that team but after that there was an enormous drop. There was many very weak teams to stack points against. You might e right that FEL might not have absolute stars anymore but the depth is much better nowadays. Competition is much harder for playoff spots. Worst team can beat best team pretty easily.

No, it isn't. It's more even now than but that is largely due to fact that other leagues are now luring all the best players earlier than before. It's no longer possible to build a powerhouse team that could challenge the best clubs in Europe the likes that Jokerit and TPS had in the 90's and Kärpät in the middle of last decade.

 

[thomast]

To be honest, both FEL and SEL are worse now than 10-15 years ago due to KHL. You could also argue that the better depth might be an illusion as the best players in the league are worse than before (so many play in KHL now), and the amount of top top players in the league is also smaller. That makes the bottom/depth players look better compared to the leagues top players.

Yet, that doesn't mean that today's FEL and SEL are crap leagues, but they are not as strong as they used to be.

As for the young players. I've been on this message board for years and seen so many Finnish prospects getting hyped by Finnish fans, but in the end they actually rarely succeed in the NHL. That's quite a contrast from SEL prospects, who tend to succeed in the NHL more often. That's one of the reason I just can't take this "FEL and their prospects are almost as good as SEL"-thesis seriously. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong in the future though.

There isn't much difference in SEL and FEL prospect/player developing pretty even nowadays IMO. The gap at player developement is very big because of the other developement leagues in both countries. Compare allsvenskan to mestis or superelit to A-nuorten SM-liiga. There have been plenty of players who have jumped straigth from allsvenskan to the NHL.

You're right that KHL takes talent off FEL but hockey is much more professional in FEL and coaching, training is much better. I challenge you to watch non playoff game off 90s and compare it to nowadays. The game itself have developed alot, quality of league is much better. Like i said the tip isn't as sharp but depth and the league is much better.

 

[Gaps]

As for the young players. I've been on this message board for years and seen so many Finnish prospects getting hyped by Finnish fans, but in the end they actually rarely succeed in the NHL. That's quite a contrast from SEL prospects, who tend to succeed in the NHL more often. That's one of the reason I just can't take this "FEL and their prospects are almost as good as SEL"-thesis seriously. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong in the future though.

Are you implying that Barkov will be just another bust? After having almost everyone and their brother (not just Finns) hype him? The development of Finnish players has improved in the last few years, the reason why the Swedes have done better in the past is because there were severe flaws in our development system compared to Sweden's. It's better now and the results are starting to show after many thin years.

 

[Tree-hugger]

As for the young players. I've been on this message board for years and seen so many Finnish prospects getting hyped by Finnish fans, but in the end they actually rarely succeed in the NHL. That's quite a contrast from SEL prospects, who tend to succeed in the NHL more often. That's one of the reason I just can't take this "FEL and their prospects are almost as good as SEL"-thesis seriously. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong in the future though.

Well you should not take them too seriously but as far as I'm concerned, Sweden has been icing junior teams, for the last twenty years or so, where talent times size comfortably exceeds The Finns.
It all fluctuates - I wish I'd been a gamer like Jonas Brodin. I like that dwarf - a lot.

 

[Haite]

I wish I'd been a gamer like Jonas Brodin. I like that dwarf - a lot.

A 6'1 dwarf?

 

[Gabranth]

To be honest, both FEL and SEL are worse now than 10-15 years ago due to KHL. You could also argue that the better depth might be an illusion as the best players in the league are worse than before (so many play in KHL now), and the amount of top top players in the league is also smaller. That makes the bottom/depth players look better compared to the leagues top players.

Yet, that doesn't mean that today's FEL and SEL are crap leagues, but they are not as strong as they used to be.

As for the young players. I've been on this message board for years and seen so many Finnish prospects getting hyped by Finnish fans, but in the end they actually rarely succeed in the NHL. That's quite a contrast from SEL prospects, who tend to succeed in the NHL more often. That's one of the reason I just can't take this "FEL and their prospects are almost as good as SEL"-thesis seriously. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong in the future though.

Pretty much this, Finns are becoming extinct in the nhl. There are what... 15 finns (most of them 4th line energy players, or juniors that are going to be dropped to AHL anyway) and 50 players from Sweden. We used to have about equal number of players, but in the recent years Sweden has gotten some amazing prospects, seems like everyone of them become decent or even elite players.

I think Barkov will drop in the end, just like Teravainen.... You have to consider the Finnish-factor. Then again he has Russian blood flowing through him, no wonder he has at least some talent.

 

[YARR123]

As for the young players. I've been on this message board for years and seen so many Finnish prospects getting hyped by Finnish fans, but in the end they actually rarely succeed in the NHL. That's quite a contrast from SEL prospects, who tend to succeed in the NHL more often. That's one of the reason I just can't take this "FEL and their prospects are almost as good as SEL"-thesis seriously. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong in the future though.

Obviously SEL has had and still has more NHL prospects than FEL. However it's not really relevant to take some of the recent years of Finnish prospects into account when assessing who has the better prospects NOW. It's no secret that 87-91 born classes have been pretty atrocious for us. 87s had some decent potential but tbh none of them were top tier prospects, so it's not a case of players not panning out (it's also that but not predominately so).

 

[Pellegrino]

There isn't much difference in SEL and FEL prospect/player developing pretty even nowadays IMO. The gap at player developement is very big because of the other developement leagues in both countries. Compare allsvenskan to mestis or superelit to A-nuorten SM-liiga. There have been plenty of players who have jumped straigth from allsvenskan to the NHL.

You're right that KHL takes talent off FEL but hockey is much more professional in FEL and coaching, training is much better. I challenge you to watch non playoff game off 90s and compare it to nowadays. The game itself have developed alot, quality of league is much better. Like i said the tip isn't as sharp but depth and the league is much better.

I don't know how good Mestiis is compared to Allsvenskan. But if Allsvenskan is much better than Mestiis, then I would assume the depth of SEL is much better than the depth of FEL, as the SEL clubs would have a much deeper prospect prospect pool to choose players from.

What you're talking about anyway? Plenty of players from Allsvenskan jumped straight into NHL? "Plenty"...? Surely a few did, but wouldn't say plenty.

Are you implying that Barkov will be just another bust? After having almost everyone and their brother (not just Finns) hype him? The development of Finnish players has improved in the last few years, the reason why the Swedes have done better in the past is because there were severe flaws in our development system compared to Sweden's. It's better now and the results are starting to show after many thin years.

I haven't seen enough of Barkov to comment. Each player must be individually scouted and not judged by the class of the league he's currently playing in.

 

[BusQuets]

Pretty much this, Finns are becoming extinct in the nhl. There are what... 15 finns (most of them 4th line energy players, or juniors that are going to be dropped to AHL anyway) and 50 players from Sweden. We used to have about equal number of players, but in the recent years Sweden has gotten some amazing prospects, seems like everyone of them become decent or even elite players.

I think Barkov will drop in the end, just like Teravainen.... You have to consider the Finnish-factor. Then again he has Russian blood flowing through him, no wonder he has at least some talent.

Does this mean that Granlund still has chance because he has swedish surname? What about Komarov he has estonian blood running in him? Now i'm confused.

 

[YARR123]

There isn't much difference in SEL and FEL prospect/player developing pretty even nowadays IMO. The gap at player developement is very big because of the other developement leagues in both countries. Compare allsvenskan to mestis or superelit to A-nuorten SM-liiga. There have been plenty of players who have jumped straigth from allsvenskan to the NHL.

You're right that KHL takes talent off FEL but hockey is much more professional in FEL and coaching, training is much better. I challenge you to watch non playoff game off 90s and compare it to nowadays. The game itself have developed alot, quality of league is much better. Like i said the tip isn't as sharp but depth and the league is much better.

You have some points with which I agree. It's true that hockey now is very different to the 90s, and any 90s team would get absolutely torched by any SM-liiga team of today. That said, I don't think anyone is saying that the level of the league has deteriorated in absolute terms, but in relative terms. SM-liiga isn't as tough in relative terms than it was in the late 90s - early 00s. More top finnish players were playing in the SM-liiga. Back then there were the NHL players, and most of the players that couldn't quite make it in the NHL or were fringe NHLers played back home(players like Janne Ojanen, Raimo Helminen, Esa Keskinen, Kai Nurminen etc, would all be playing abroad if the KHL situation would have been around in the 90s). Today those top 30 players not quite good enough or on the fringe play in the KHL. Only a few players that can be considered among those top 30 are maybe guys like Väänänen, I. Filppula, Salminen. But those guys are growing increasingly few.

What you say about depth probably has some merit, back in the 90s some of the smaller teams were very unprofessional and the difference between best and worse was a lot bigger than today.

Also I agree that a big reason why Swedish player production is so good is because Allsvenskan is such a good league, and also many of the organizations have such good development programs. Still I think SEL organizations have better junior development than SM-liiga, maybe not by quite as much as some people think but it's still considerably better imo.

 

[Pellegrino]

Obviously SEL has had and still has more NHL prospects than FEL. However it's not really relevant to take some of the recent years of Finnish prospects into account when assessing who has the better prospects NOW. It's no secret that 87-91 born classes have been pretty atrocious for us. 87s had some decent potential but tbh none of them were top tier prospects, so it's not a case of players not panning out (it's also that but not predominately so).

I understand what you're saying, but it matters to the general discussion as it has became a "the wolf is coming!"-thing in the discussion.

 

[Gabranth]

Does this mean that Granlund still has chance because he has swedish surname? What about Komarov he has estonian blood running in him? Now i'm confused.

Granlund doesn't have swedish blood so no chance for him.

 

[YARR123]

I don't know how good Mestiis is compared to Allsvenskan. But if Allsvenskan is much better than Mestiis, then I would assume the depth of SEL is much better than the depth of FEL, as the SEL clubs would have a much deeper prospect prospect pool to choose players from.

Mestis is a lot worse than Allsvenskan. I think there's only a few Mestis teams that could do ok in the Allsvenskan (enough resources, fan base, etc). Thats probably a big reason why SEL is a deeper league. THe player pool in the country is tougher, meaning that top teams have a) more to choose from and b) getting roster spots is tougher for the players, young players have a harder time breaking into rosters etc.

Also SEL has 12 teams as opposed to the 14 of the SM-liiga, which again makes our depth slightly worse.

 

[Oan]

Pretty much this, Finns are becoming extinct in the nhl. There are what... 15 finns (most of them 4th line energy players, or juniors that are going to be dropped to AHL anyway) and 50 players from Sweden. We used to have about equal number of players, but in the recent years Sweden has gotten some amazing prospects, seems like everyone of them become decent or even elite players.

I think Barkov will drop in the end, just like Teravainen.... You have to consider the Finnish-factor. Then again he has Russian blood flowing through him, no wonder he has at least some talent.

You seem to be happy, no, even delighted about the fact there are so few finns in NHL, and things generally going worse for finns, and yet, you are a finn too? Do you wish ill for all future finn hockey players?

 

[thomast]

Like i said that Barkov has been phenomenal this year and he is constantly breaking records. Barkov was still one of the best player of the league when there was NHL-lockout players. I would see that FEL was quite much better than earlier because of lockout and Barkov proved what he can do. He has played majority of his season with NHL-lockout players afterall and those players made our league better than usually. Remember guys, Barkov is 2 weeks off 2014 entry draft and hes already making strong case for men WHC, he is already one of the best player of the league and one of the most versatile players. He is an special talent for sure.

 

[Gabranth]

You seem to be happy, no, even delighted about the fact there are so few finns in NHL, and things generally going worse for finns, and yet, you are a finn too? Do you wish ill for all future finn hockey players?

More like I've low expectations for anyone coming out of Finland. Finns tend to hype Finnish prospects way too much, just like they did with Rajala and Pulkkinen, btw both are just horrible. I'm just trying to give an unbiased opinion, unlike most Finns.

 

[YARR123]

More like I've low expectations for anyone coming out of Finland. Finns tend to hype Finnish prospects way too much, just like they did with Rajala and Pulkkinen, btw both are just horrible. I'm just trying to give an unbiased opinion, unlike most Finns.

lol, you're not unbiased, you're biased towards your own ridiculous "expect nothing so you'll lose nothing" attitude.

Pulkkinen and Rajala were drafted in the 4th round. 4th rounders bust. Barkov is a likely top-3 pick. Top-3 picks bust a lot less than 4th rounders. Easy game.

 

[Apathetic]

lol, you're not unbiased, you're biased towards your own ridiculous "expect nothing so you'll lose nothing" attitude.

Pulkkinen and Rajala were drafted in the 4th round. 4th rounders bust. Barkov is a likely top-3 pick. Top-3 picks bust a lot less than 4th rounders. Easy game.

Barkov sounds a lot like Barker, Barker went 3rd overall, Barkov is projected to go 3rd overall. Logical conclusion is to not draft him he is gonna bust.

 

[edd1e]

Everything come's to skating ability and strong lower body in NHL. Without these abilities you have to be special player to be successful in NHL, and finns have been drawing blanks on these for many years now.

To see more finnish NHL players we need to develope our prospects strenght on legs.

There are also few factors like pass receiving, shot among other things that needs to get better in a wider range.

Barkov is strong enough to play in the boards, and im sure he'll get faster in a few years. In my opinion he also has very underrated shot.


This is entirely my opinion, but im sure Barkov will be successful in NHL.

 

[JabbaJabba]

Pretty much this, Finns are becoming extinct in the nhl. There are what... 15 finns (most of them 4th line energy players, or juniors that are going to be dropped to AHL anyway)

Mikko Koivu, Saku Koivu, Valtteri Filppula, Teemu Selänne, Sami Salo, Lauri Korpikoski, Kimmo Timonen, Olli Jokinen, Joni Pitkänen, Mikael Granlund, Toni Lydman, Leo Komarov, Teemu Hartikainen, Jussi Jokinen, Lennart Petrell + Pekka Rinne, Tuukka Rask, Kari Lehtonen, Niklas Bäckström, Miikka Kiprusoff, Antti Niemi. There, 20 Finnish players who have played this season. Also I would like to include Tuomo Ruutu and Sean Bergenheim who are injured right now.

Petrell is probably the only one who plays on 4th line. Komarov is being used on 3rd line and Hartikainen as well if I remember correctly. Bergenheim would be in bottom 6 if he played. Granlund isn't going to get dropped to AHL and neither is Hartikainen.

Where are the 4th liners you were talking about?

 

[thomast]

Everything come's to skating ability and strong lower body in NHL. Without these abilities you have to be special player to be successful in NHL, and finns have been drawing blanks on these for many years now.

To see more finnish NHL players we need to develope our prospects strenght on legs.

There are also few factors like pass receiving, shot among other things that needs to get better in a wider range.

Barkov is strong enough to play in the boards, and im sure he'll get faster in a few years. In my opinion he also has very underrated shot.


This is entirely my opinion, but im sure Barkov will be successful in NHL.

Barkov is just 17 and he is already 6'3 and probably +210lbs. Had huge growing spurth which made his skating suffer alot. But when you compare his skating from last year to this year it has developed with huge leaps in every possible way. I'm sure when his leg strength grows he will be good to great skater. Look at his skating style. It's very good stride, long smooth stride which look slower but it is better on bigger players. Barkov doesen't have to chance thing in his skating style the problem is that he doesen't get much power in his strides. If he continues his developing in his skating like last summer it will be more than good enough his style of game doesen't need high end skating it relies on his extremely high hockeyIQ, excellent strength and positioning.

 

[Metalcommand]

Hopefully these new guys (Granlund, Barkov etc.) can succeed in the NHL. Our player production after 1983 has been absolute garbage. That's a 10 year black hole of prospect production. It seems things are trending up for us and hopefully that continues.