Proposal: Buffalo-Minnesota

[Irie]

No, I'm being a realist. Buffalo fans are dealing in hypotheticals as if they are guaranteed to happen.

He's a 4th line center on Minnesota. He makes ZERO sense as a trade target. At his current best, he wouldn't crack the top 9 that Minnesota currently has and his best shot to do so would be as a center against Gaudreau. I expect Rossi to perform better than Mittelstadt would.

If Gaudreau walks in a year then Rossi takes his spot at 3C. The following year you move Rossi up to 1C, Ek still at 2C, and then you hope that one of Khusnutdinov, Shaw, Hentges or Khovanov can hold the spot over for 1 year to get out of the dead cap era. If Fiala is traded for 7th overall (my expectation), then I don't think the cap is that big of a problem and hopefully by then the player selected will be nearing NHL ready.

You didn't even correct me. You couldn't provide one shred of evidence that Mittelstadt is better than Hartman, Ek or Gaudreau.

Enough with the strawman. This argument is going in circles.

I never said Mittelstadt was currently better than the three.

I never said Minnesota should trade for him. Although I think he'd be a lot better asset to your organization than you are willing to admit, given your future cap situation and prospect pool.

Buffalo is not trading him, the one poster that tries to trade him in every thread on these boards is out to lunch.

Eriksson EK, Hartman, and Gaudreau were better top 3 options last year than Mittelstadt.

Mittelstadt is a better top 6 center than any of the three were at the same age and currently has more upside, but is still very young, has a lot of developing yet to do, and has in no way entered his prime yet.

Mittelstadt is not a 4th line center. He was the best player on the ice in several games this season, so there is an argument to be made that he might bump one of your centers if he was in the mix.

Do you ever call Rossi a 4th line center? Would you call Shane Wright a 4th line center if you acquired him for Fiala? You are spinning your words now and it is disingenuous.

We are not trying to sell you on Mittelstadt, he is not for sale. We are just taking exception to the way you are dismissing and mischaracterizing him.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

it’s a very safe bet if Mittlestadt stays healthy he puts up more points than E-Ek In 22/23 season

Hartmrnt is not a safe bet right now to repeat his season numbers.

If he stays on that line next year, it’s not a dangerous one.

 

[Djp]

No, I'm being a realist. Buffalo fans are dealing in hypotheticals as if they are guaranteed to happen.

He's a 4th line center on Minnesota. He makes ZERO sense as a trade target. At his current best, he wouldn't crack the top 9 that Minnesota currently has and his best shot to do so would be as a center against Gaudreau. I expect Rossi to perform better than Mittelstadt would.

If Gaudreau walks in a year then Rossi takes his spot at 3C. The following year you move Rossi up to 1C, Ek still at 2C, and then you hope that one of Khusnutdinov, Shaw, Hentges or Khovanov can hold the spot over for 1 year to get out of the dead cap era. If Fiala is traded for 7th overall (my expectation), then I don't think the cap is that big of a problem and hopefully by then the player selected will be nearing NHL ready.

You didn't even correct me. You couldn't provide one shred of evidence that Mittelstadt is better than Hartman, Ek or Gaudreau.

Rossi as a 1C is being a realist???

Mitts is still younger than thrm all. And as the chance to be better offensively.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Enough with the strawman. This argument is going in circles.

I never said Mittelstadt was currently better than the three.

I never said Minnesota should trade for him. Although I think he'd be a lot better asset to your organization than you are willing to admit, given your future cap situation and prospect pool.

Buffalo is not trading him, the one poster that tries to trade him in every thread on these boards is out to lunch.

Eriksson EK, Hartman, and Gaudreau were better top 3 options last year than Mittelstadt.

Mittelstadt is a better top 6 center than any of the three were at the same age and currently has more upside, but is still very young, has a lot of developing yet to do, and has in no way entered his prime yet.

Mittelstadt is not a 4th line center. He was the best player on the ice in several games this season, so there is an argument to be made that he might bump one of your centers if he was in the mix.

Do you ever call Rossi a 4th line center? Would you call Shane Wright a 4th line center if you acquired him for Fiala? You are spinning your words now and it is disingenuous.

We are not trying to sell you on Mittelstadt, he is not for sale. We are just taking exception to the way you are dismissing and mischaracterizing him.

How is what I'm saying a strawman?

I don't know how many times I have to directly say or imply that I was talking about him as a 4th line center on Minnesota. I even went back and edited the first post to clarify what I meant. Clearly he's a middle 6 center on a team like Buffalo.

Eriksson Ek was better at age 23 than Mittlestadt at age 23. Hartman wasn't a center until Evason stuck him there last playoffs against Vegas.

I don't think Mittelstadt would have bumped Gaudreau simply because Gaudreau brought defensive responsibility to Fiala's line while also having the speed to keep up with him. I'm not sure Mittelstadt would have fit that role well.

Rossi is 20 with 2 NHL games played. Clearly he wasn't good enough to beat Gaudreau out for the 3rd line center spot. 4th line center doesn't fit his style and wouldn't be good for his development, so he was sent down to the AHL for the year.

Shane Wright hasn't even been drafted yet. Mittelstadt is 5 years older and has 195 NHL games played. How is that even comparable? And I'm supposedly the one using a strawman fallacy...

Again, I'm not mischaracterizing him. I have yet to be proven wrong about him being the 4th best center Minnesota would have.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Rossi as a 1C is being a realist???

Mitts is still younger than thrm all. And as the chance to be better offensively.

Not sure it would work out, but I don't know if Minnesota will have much of a choice due to the cap. They have to try him there if Hartman is gone and there is no one else. I don't see them breaking up Greenway-Eriksson Ek-Foligno.

I do know that if three years from now Rossi has a career high of 25 points in a single season that would be a catastrophic disappointment given he'd be playing with one or two of Kaprizov/Zuccarello/Boldy

 

[Zach716]

I do know that if three years from now Rossi has a career high of 25 points in a single season that would be a catastrophic disappointment given he'd be playing with one or two of Kaprizov/Zuccarello/Boldy

The guy has had lengthy injuries every season of his career except his rookie start. It's fair to say he's made of glass, but calling him a 25 point player like he actually resembles that on ice is disingenuous. He's gonna need to stay healthy this year or else Sabres are going to have to make some serious considerations, but they aren't related to the guys talent.

 

[Irie]

How is what I'm saying a strawman?

I don't know how many times I have to directly say or imply that I was talking about him as a 4th line center on Minnesota. I even went back and edited the first post to clarify what I meant. Clearly he's a middle 6 center on a team like Buffalo.

Eriksson Ek was better at age 23 than Mittlestadt at age 23. Hartman wasn't a center until Evason stuck him there last playoffs against Vegas.

I don't think Mittelstadt would have bumped Gaudreau simply because Gaudreau brought defensive responsibility to Fiala's line while also having the speed to keep up with him. I'm not sure Mittelstadt would have fit that role well.

Rossi is 20 with 2 NHL games played. Clearly he wasn't good enough to beat Gaudreau out for the 3rd line center spot. 4th line center doesn't fit his style and wouldn't be good for his development, so he was sent down to the AHL for the year.

Shane Wright hasn't even been drafted yet. Mittelstadt is 5 years older and has 195 NHL games played. How is that even comparable? And I'm supposedly the one using a strawman fallacy...

Again, I'm not mischaracterizing him. I have yet to be proven wrong about him being the 4th best center Minnesota would have.

You called him a 4th line center.

When called out on it, you played it off like you always meant 4th best center on the WIld, and pushed an argument that no one responding to you made.

We said Mittelstadt is not a 4th line center.

You went back and edited your post, so that it does not say exactly what you were called out for, and you are asking us to debate a different point that no one ever implied or argued.

That is very much a strawman.

You didn't like the value, and that is a very valid opinion, but the response was unnecessary.

If the Kings offered you Byfield or the Avalanche offered Newhook and a first, would you respond,"I'm not trading Fiala for a 4th line center?"

Both of those guys would likely be the 4th on your depth chart this upcoming year, but since I imagine you would like the value better, you might make the deal and not call them 4th line centers.

I am done with this discussion. I told you that we did not say he was better than Hartman, Gaudreau or Eriksson EK, just that we took exception to calling him a 4th line center. And yet you keep coming back and asking who of the three he is better than.

 

[Digitalbooya]

The guy has had lengthy injuries every season of his career except his rookie start. It's fair to say he's made of glass, but calling him a 25 point player like he actually resembles that on ice is disingenuous. He's gonna need to stay healthy this year or else Sabres are going to have to make some serious considerations, but they aren't related to the guys talent.

I didn’t call him a 25 point player. I said if Rossi has a career high of 25 points in one season three years from now then he would be a catastrophic disappointment. Injuries can cause a player to be a disappointment.

 

[Digitalbooya]

You called him a 4th line center.

When called out on it, you played it off like you always meant 4th best center on the WIld, and pushed an argument that no one responding to you made.

We said Mittelstadt is not a 4th line center.

You went back and edited your post, so that it does not say exactly what you were called out for, and you are asking us to debate a different point that no one ever implied or argued.

That is very much a strawman.

You didn't like the value, and that is a very valid opinion, but the response was unnecessary.

If the Kings offered you Byfield or the Avalanche offered Newhook and a first, would you respond,"I'm not trading Fiala for a 4th line center?"

Both of those guys would likely be the 4th on your depth chart this upcoming year, but since I imagine you would like the value better, you might make the deal and not call them 4th line centers.

I am done with this discussion. I told you that we did not say he was better than Hartman, Gaudreau or Eriksson EK, just that we took exception to calling him a 4th line center. And yet you keep coming back and asking who of the three he is better than.

Whatever fits your narrative dude. I’m done arguing the semantics of one line I wrote at 2am.

All of the example players you mention are 19-21 years old and most probably shouldn’t be playing in the NHL. They have 2-4 years of development before they reach Mittelstadt’s age. Those years represent potential and added value. One case the player has already beat Mittelstadt’s career high (Newhook). One case the player wasn’t given a chance to play at the NHL level (Rossi). One case the player wasn’t even eligible to play NHL hockey (Wright). Then there’s Byfield… I remember talking with Kings fans last offseason about how it would take Byfield to trade Kaprizov during his contract stuff. They scoffed at it. Wonder how they feel about that now…

At some point, Mittelstadt is just gonna be what he is. Most players you know what they are by age 25.

 

[Irie]

At some point, Mittelstadt is just gonna be what he is. Most players you know what they are by age 25.

Age 22-23

Casey Mittelstadt - .475 PPG
Kevin Fiala - .469 PPG
Ryan Hartman - .407 PPG
Joel Eriksson Ek - .467 PPG
Frederick Gaudreau - wasn't even in the league yet, but his rookie year at age 23-24 he had a .111 PPG. and a .150 PPG the following year at the age of 24-25 .

 

[Digitalbooya]

Age 22-23

Casey Mittelstadt - .475 PPG
Kevin Fiala - .469 PPG
Ryan Hartman - .407 PPG
Joel Eriksson Ek - .467 PPG
Frederick Gaudreau - wasn't even in the league yet, but his rookie year at age 23-24 he had a .111 PPG. and a .150 PPG the following year at the age of 24-25 .

You posted numbers from ages 22/23 for something I said about 25 year olds?

 

[Irie]

You posted numbers from ages 22/23 for something I said about 25 year olds?

Mittelstadt is only 23 so it would be pretty difficult to post age 25 comparisons for him to all the older players you are comparing him to in this thread

"At some point, Mittelstadt is just gonna be what he is"

Your words.

Are you not implying that you believe you already know what Mittelstadt will become?

You called him a crappy prospect, and yet, he outscored all of your guys when they were his current age.

"But at least you admit Mittelstadt is a crappy center."

You took the original poster's words out of context when he was just making a general comment. Maybe it was a joke. Either way, Mittelstadt outproduced all four of the guys you've been comparing him to i here at a similar age while clearily playing hurt for half of his games.

 

[KrakenSabresMike]

On some other team, maybe he's a 2nd or 3rd line center. He's not better than Hartman, Eriksson Ek, or Gaudreau at this point. His upside isn't higher than Rossi who is looking to crack the roster to provide young ELC production.

"Starting the year he was buffalo's best offensive player before he got injured." The guy got injured in the first game of the season... He got 0 points in a 5-1 blowout of Montreal. Before January he had 4GP 0G 1A 1PT -6 7 shots. I don't think your statement is true.

Hartman next to Kaprizov and Zucc I would have expected at least 25+30.

Gaudreau was a bit of a surprise given his history. He turned into our best faceoff guy in the top 9 and a reliable, speedy defensive presence next to Fiala and Boldy.

I’m not going to rehash the 4th line c argument that everyone else has already addressed but up until that 1st game mittelstadt was battling with Thompson as our best player going into the season. Of course you wouldn’t know that if your just stat sheet scoring players and not actually following a team.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Yes, us Minnesotans don't know anything about Mittlestadt

From the looks of all of their comments they really don't. At all.

Mittelstadt, the guy who has never scored more than 12 goals or 13 assists in a single season. I would maybe expect 20+25

Awefully low expectations

Mittlestadt has proven to be nothing but a disappointment, so far.

At some point, Mittelstadt is just gonna be what he is. Most players you know what they are by age 25.

A pretty good mid6 C?

 

[Digitalbooya]

Mittelstadt is only 23 so it would be pretty difficult to post age 25 comparisons for him to all the older players you are comparing him to in this thread

"At some point, Mittelstadt is just gonna be what he is"

Your words.

Are you not implying that you believe you already know what Mittelstadt will become?

You called him a crappy prospect, and yet, he outscored all of your guys when they were his current age.

"But at least you admit Mittelstadt is a crappy center."

You took the original poster's words out of context when he was just making a general comment. Maybe it was a joke. Either way, Mittelstadt outproduced all four of the guys you've been comparing him to i here at a similar age while clearily playing hurt for half of his games.

You sure love putting words in my mouth. I said "at some point" meaning pretty soon. So if he's gonna improve he better do it soon.

Also, if you are going to compare 23 year old seasons, make sure you compare the right ones...

23 year old season:
Fiala .844ppg (64 games)
Mittelstadt .475ppg (40 games)
Eriksson Ek .468ppg (62 games)
Hartman .397ppg (78 games)

Hartman was viewed as a 3rd/4th line winger pretty much until this past season. He's the only one I consider Mittelstadt better than when comparing 23 year old seasons.

Ek's ppg might be slightly worse, but the difference is about half a point across an 82 game season. When you compare defense the players are not close. Ek all day.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Awefully low expectations

Had to factor in that he'd miss 15-20 games due to injury.

 

[Digitalbooya]

I’m not going to rehash the 4th line c argument that everyone else has already addressed but up until that 1st game mittelstadt was battling with Thompson as our best player going into the season. Of course you wouldn’t know that if your just stat sheet scoring players and not actually following a team.

Humor me for a second, which would you rather have:
#16 + Mittelstadt or Thompson

 

[Fly Boy]

You sure love putting words in my mouth. I said "at some point" meaning pretty soon. So if he's gonna improve he better do it soon.

Also, if you are going to compare 23 year old seasons, make sure you compare the right ones...

23 year old (D+6) season:
Fiala .844ppg (64 games)
Mittelstadt .475ppg (40 games)
Eriksson Ek .468ppg (62 games)
Hartman .397ppg (78 games)

Hartman was viewed as a 3rd/4th line winger pretty much until this past season. He's the only one I consider Mittelstadt better than when comparing 23 year old seasons.

Ek's ppg might be slightly worse, but the difference is about half a point across an 82 game season. When you compare defense the players are not close. Ek all day.

My god this pissing contest is ridiculous. Both of you are cherry picking by trying to phrase the argument in your favor and are still ******* it up.

He posted D+5 numbers while claiming the incorrect age seasons and you post the age season but claim them all as the D+6 season when this was Mittelstadt's D+5 year. Neither of you are arguing about the same thing.

Not that any of this should even matter at this point anymore. Someone please lock this thread.

 

[Digitalbooya]

My god this pissing contest is ridiculous. Both of you are cherry picking by trying to phrase the argument in your favor and are still ******* it up.

He posted D+5 numbers while claiming the incorrect age seasons and you post the age season but claim them all as the D+6 season when this was Mittelstadt's D+5 year. Neither of you are arguing about the same thing.

Not that any of this should even matter at this point anymore. Someone please lock this thread.

Damn, Mittelstadt is old for his draft class.

Regardless, this past season was Mittelstadt's 23 year old season and all the numbers I posted were their 23 year old seasons. Doesn't matter to me that it was D+6 or D+5 season. They are the same age, which is what the whole purpose of their argument is (comparing them at 23 years old).

 

[Irie]

You sure love putting words in my mouth. I said "at some point" meaning pretty soon. So if he's gonna improve he better do it soon.

Also, if you are going to compare 23 year old seasons, make sure you compare the right ones...

23 year old season:
Fiala .844ppg (64 games)
Mittelstadt .475ppg (40 games)
Eriksson Ek .468ppg (62 games)
Hartman .397ppg (78 games)

Hartman was viewed as a 3rd/4th line winger pretty much until this past season. He's the only one I consider Mittelstadt better than when comparing 23 year old seasons.

Ek's ppg might be slightly worse, but the difference is about half a point across an 82 game season. When you compare defense the players are not close. Ek all day.

Accept, I was using seasons that the player started at 22 years of age(D+5). Not 23. Mittelstadt's 23 season will be this year. (D+6 - which you used to rewrite my comparison, but still using Mittelstadt's D+5 season.)

I really didn't cherrypick anything there. My comparisons really are apples to apples. Just pointing out their development paths.

And I am not nor never did I claim Mittelstadt is a better player, just bringing to light that he is developing similar to all of your teams prospects, yet somehow Mittelstadt's chances of reaching a higher level of development should somehow be in question when he is very comparable to all the guys you are measuring him against at the same age?

If by saying "At some point Mittelstadt is just going to be what he is" you did not mean it to be taken as a dig on him not having developed yet, I am sorry I assumed that, but if it was not a slight, it is was a really weird comment to make.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Accept, I was using seasons that the player started at 22 years of age(D+5). Not 23. Mittelstadt's 23 season will be this year. (D+6 - which you used to rewrite my comparison, but still using Mittelstadt's D+5 season.)

I really didn't cherrypick anything there. My comparisons really are apples to apples. Just pointing out their development paths.

And I am not nor never did I claim Mittelstadt is a better player, just bringing to light that he is developing similar to all of your teams prospects, yet somehow Mittelstadt's chances of reaching a higher level of development should somehow be in question when he is very comparable to all the guys you are measuring him against at the same age?

If by saying "At some point Mittelstadt is just going to be what he is" you did not mean it to be taken as a dig on him not having developed yet, I am sorry I assumed that, but if it was not a slight, it is was a really weird comment to make.

Mittelstadt is gonna be 24 in November. How is next season gonna be his 23 year old season?

Hockey-reference has this past season as his 23 year old season. LINK

 

[KrakenSabresMike]

Humor me for a second, which would you rather have:
#16 + Mittelstadt or Thompson

That’s not the argument being had here - you said mittelstadt was a “ crappy” center. Everyone would rather have Thompson who just scored 38 g but I’m not trading either for fiala. He is redundant in the Sabres current development plan - Casey + 28 or 41 for a top 4 mid 20s D and goaltending is a conversation we should be focusing on instead.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Everyone would rather have Thompson who just scored 38 g but I’m not trading either for fiala. He is redundant in the Sabres current development plan - Casey + 28 or 41 for a top 4 mid 20s D and goaltending is a conversation we should be focusing on instead.

Yet the expectation is that Mittelstadt and that pick, whom you've just said collectively have less value than Thompson, is an acceptable offer for Fiala?

Nobody is going to trade a 23-27 year old top 4 D for Mittelstadt and a late 1st/early 2nd.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Get a hobby fellas. Lots of talk about Casey.

 

[elchud]

If I could try to put a bow on the Casey talk, as a Buffalo fan we realize that any trade with him now would be selling low. He has the opportunity to be a big time 2C this coming season, and we could certainly use that.

Also. A savvy GM could gamble on Mitts. Half retained he is only 1.25 million which could be insane bang-for-the-buck as a middle 6 center for two seasons, and then RFA after that.

Enough about Mitts. Back to Fiala. Him coming on board means a forward would have to go (probably) as there's too many wings. Quinn/Cozens/Krebs/Cozens are untouchable. Asplund is cheap (and quality) but he is such a glue guy for any line and is one of a kind in the top 9. That leaves Olofsson but Minny won't pay that contract.

Value wise, all there is left is 9th overall this year and a 2nd next draft. I think Minny can find a better deal than that, and for Buffalo trading the 9th overall isn't part of how we are building this roster. We are a couple years away from a significant trade like this.