Brisson confirms that EP40 dealt with injury which prevented him from Off-season Training.

[racerjoe]

So you don't have the info or facts but it's reasonable to conclude this is Alvin's fault?

Easy to conclude the blame should be on Pettersson. Too many excuses.



Again, just blaming someone other than Pettersson here is bizarre.

Not going further on this.

Fact… our defence was a mess. Most here predicted that looking at it in the off season, that’s on management. Facts, we now know more of the picture and the Canucks should have traded miller instead of Bo… that blew up this season.

Facts, they are just as bad with the media as Petey and like Petey it’s blowing up in their face.

Facts they are bad with injuries and it’s blowing up in their face, see Hughes Demko, Petey, just to name a few.

I would keep management honestly. I would, but they are not blameless, just like Petey isn’t, just like our coaches aren’t

 

[kanucks25]

Facts, we now know more of the picture and the Canucks should have traded miller instead of Bo… that blew up this season.

I'll take Hronek over Bo, especially considering we had Miller and Petey.

And Miller wouldn't have blown up if he wasn't utterly disgusted at Petey, just like it wasn't an issue until Petey decided to check out last season.

Both are to blame but like I've said in other posts, if Petey just performed like he's supposed to / paid to, so much of what's gone wrong this season would not exist.

 

[iceburg]

Fact… our defence was a mess. Most here predicted that looking at it in the off season, that’s on management. Facts, we now know more of the picture and the Canucks should have traded miller instead of Bo… that blew up this season.

Facts, they are just as bad with the media as Petey and like Petey it’s blowing up in their face.

Facts they are bad with injuries and it’s blowing up in their face, see Hughes Demko, Petey, just to name a few.

I would keep management honestly. I would, but they are not blameless, just like Petey isn’t, just like our coaches aren’t

Pretty balanced. There's lots of blame to go around when things go this badly. It's the same when things go well. There is a lot of credit to go around.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Shut him down, get him the best physicians, therapists, doctors, trainers and some bacon.

Do the right thing and look long term for once,
this isn’t the Pettersson we know and love.

Let him heal.

You can't shut him down. His agent, the PA and EP himself wouldn't allow it. Want to know why? He isn't injured.

 

[racerjoe]

I'll take Hronek over Bo, especially considering we had Miller and Petey.

And Miller wouldn't have blown up if he wasn't utterly disgusted at Petey, just like it wasn't an issue until Petey decided to check out last season.

Both are to blame but like I've said in other posts, if Petey just performed like he's supposed to / paid to, so much of what's gone wrong this season would not exist.

Who is to say we don’t still trade for Hronek? Maybe it takes different assets, but we still have an extra first after trading miller to NYR

Pretty balanced. There's lots of blame to go around when things go this badly. It's the same when things go well. There is a lot of credit to go around.

Absolutely. Pretty much no one is innocent in this.

 

[DonnyNucker]

I know you really want to catch me in some contradiction, but I never said we should take Dhaliwal’s rumour as the truth. It’s a rumour. I tagged you because you typically give a lot of weight to Dhaliwal rumours. The rumour may or may not be true. Pettersson may or may not be injured. We won’t know unless he confirms this.


You are moving the goal posts and strawmanning me as you always do. Your shockingly stupid logic wasn’t the logic you have restated above, it was to argue that Pettersson’s direct testimony, in May of 2024, confirming that he had an injury in 2023-24, should be taken as direct testimony confirming that he currently has an injury 10 months later. I.e., you are trying to take Pettersson’s earlier comment from May of 2024 as contemporaneous direct testimony that he is currently injured in a halfwitted attempt to catch me in a contradiction where I preferred Dhaliwal’s current rumour over this direct testimony. Again, it’s shockingly stupid logic and if you don’t refrain from this obviously disingenuous and stupid line of argument I’m going to stop engaging with you.

Do you have the quote?

Ultimately, some rumours will be correct and some will be wrong. This isn’t some surprising concept. I gave reasons why I doubted Dhaliwal’s rumour which didn’t apply to this Pettersson rumour. Plus, I acknowledge this current Dhaliwal rumour may be false. I am not taking it as the truth. It just surprises me that he seems so certain.


We don't know there is a disconnect here. The only evidence you have provided is how each side has handled the disclosure of the injury which you point to as a disconnect in terms of the actual injury which it isn’t necessarily. I have already said this to you, but the inconsistency in disclosure can reasonably be explained by management/coaching not disclosing injuries and letting the players disclose the injuries which is why they said there was no injury initially but Pettersson confirmed there was one later. In fact, it’s almost unfathomable for Pettersson to somehow know he had patellar tendinitis but for management and coaching to not know this.

No, that’s a strawman.


Again, I’d love to see a quote where he attributes his poor play to the patellar tendinitis. I recall him being quite sheepish when disclosing the injury.

Again, I have no desire to relitigate our original debate from a year ago. And I’ve told you this. And I don’t even have a ton of conviction for my position, and in fact I believe I even recognized I could be wrong. Again, I don’t really care. What I do care about is your total inability to understand the preference for direct testimony over rumours.


You realize I keep on acknowledging to you that his knee may be injured, but you keep on sticking your head in the sand strawmanning me as thinking he absolutely must not have an injury.

But in terms of the icing, that may be preventative. Icing helps to stop the tendon from swelling which is effectively what patellar tendinitis is. So he may not currently have patellar tendinitis, but may still ice the knee to ensure it doesn’t come back.


That’s your problem, though. You, and one or two others , mistake my critique / analysis of the various evidence, as having an absolute or unwavering position notwithstanding the fact that I have confirmed my position to you and the others like a dozen times.

I can vehemently, as you say, debate the various evidence, or the conclusions some are drawing from the evidence, but that doesn’t mean you can strawman my global position on the matter which has been communicated to you many times.


The record is clear. And you are literally strawmanning my position in almost every post you make. And I continually point this out, and you never even bother trying to refute it because it’s clear as day.

This is a pretty bizarre argument. the Petterson Stans are so disingenuous.

I would also say some stats are misleading like this shots on goal. It goes more to his accuracy as he is seemingly taking shots, he tried a couple in the third last night. It also goes to coaching. Myers has been leading the team in shots a few games, cause the plan of the team is to just put it to the point and shoot. It’s minor hockey.

Finally you had a game where he had no offensive zone starts.

So yes he needs to get more accurate no question what happened there. But I think a lot of the rest is coaching, at least for shots. Look at the rest of the team putting up ten shots a game.

coaches fault. new excuse. nice.

 

[strattonius]

Fact… our defence was a mess. Most here predicted that looking at it in the off season, that’s on management. Facts, we now know more of the picture and the Canucks should have traded miller instead of Bo… that blew up this season.

Facts, they are just as bad with the media as Petey and like Petey it’s blowing up in their face.

Facts they are bad with injuries and it’s blowing up in their face, see Hughes Demko, Petey, just to name a few.

I would keep management honestly. I would, but they are not blameless, just like Petey isn’t, just like our coaches aren’t

We are not talking about management's missteps on the defense. Or the Horvat trade. Like what are you even going on about?

We are talking about how some fans are now blaming management for Pettersson's play. Personally I feel like his fall off this year wasn't predictable and anyone saying this is on Alvin is using yet another excuse for Pettersson. Yeah we knew he was rehabbing an injury but the fall to a 50 pt player wasn't something management could have foreseen.

 

[supercanuck]

I'll take Hronek over Bo, especially considering we had Miller and Petey.

And Miller wouldn't have blown up if he wasn't utterly disgusted at Petey, just like it wasn't an issue until Petey decided to check out last season.

Both are to blame but like I've said in other posts, if Petey just performed like he's supposed to / paid to, so much of what's gone wrong this season would not exist.

Supporting bullies and blaming the victim. Awesome

 

[KingRichard]

This is a pretty bizarre argument. the Petterson Stans are so disingenuous.


coaches fault. new excuse. nice.

I wonder how it would go over in my work if I blamed my lack of effort and production on

1. My coworker being mean because I'm not doing my job
2. Or blaming My boss

 

[kanucks25]

Supporting bullies and blaming the victim. Awesome

The only victim are the Canucks fans having to watch Pettersson every 2nd night play like absolute shit on the ice and behave like a petulant child off the ice while he makes a salary that's like 100-200x more than the average fan watching him.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Supporting bullies and blaming the victim. Awesome

waaaa! You have no idea what you are talking about

 

[Breakers]

This is a pretty bizarre argument. the Petterson Stans are so disingenuous.


coaches fault. new excuse. nice.

Exactly
The excuses are so wild

You can see it is still in there, like he’ll have entire good periods then mail it in for 2 weeks, but his body language and interest level is insanely poor and have been for a damn long time

Even the most casual of fans are starting to get pissed off.

 

[PavelBure10]

Exactly
The excuses are so wild

You can see it is still in there, like he’ll have entire good periods then mail it in for 2 weeks, but his body language and interest level is insanely poor and have been for a damn long time

Even the most casual of fans are starting to get pissed off.

I have a feeling the play for a winning team comment backfired on him. For all we know Pettersson had his bags packed and was already headed out the door. Then the Canucks started winning and pressured Pettersson into a corner. Threatening a trade or signing a career changing contract that makes him the fifth highest per year player in the league. Yes Pettersson could be injured. He could be out of shape, or he may not even want to play here. It really could be anything at this point.

 

[Soups On]

If what you are saying is accurate, I believe it would require two things to be true

1. Petey played NHL hockey for three months with an inflamed knee tendon in the spring of 2024 yet somehow avoided microtears and resultant scarring and

2. A pro athlete with effectively unlimited resources - and with about four months off - failed to conduct a ~3 week rehab routine

I find the second unlikely but certainly possible. However I find the first to be unbelievable.

I would be shocked if scar tissue was not created during those three months of NHL hockey in spring 2024, leaving aside what further scar tissue has built up in the last five months of NHL hockey

What makes much more sense to me is that scar tissue inevitably built up in the spring of 2024, which means non-surgical rehab in the summer of 2024 was the wrong course of action, just as not immediately resting and restrengthening the knee in late January/early February 2024 (when it was first discovered) was the wrong course of action

And it follows from my reasoning that nonsurgical rehab in summer 2025 will also fail. Of course the damage is likely at the point that even with surgical debridement, too much of the tendon will be gone and Petey's knee will never be what it was

Basically, his potential was likely taken away from him when they failed to rest and restrengthen him in the first few weeks of February 2024.

And they signed him to a $96m contract at the end of what, that same month?

if that were an honest management group, they would come forward with a mea culpa

But if they were like me, they would deny anything was done wrong, and conduct a house media/company propaganda campaign assassinating his character, with no regard for the truth

I mean, that's just me

A few points
1) Scar tissue on imaging does not immediately suggest a 1:1 relationship in pain and/or dysfunction.

2) Conservative rehab for a tendinopathy, for full return to sport, can take up to 3 months of active rehab with the last few weeks for return to sport. In elite sports, this can be sped up with multiple modalities of rehab and what I often recommend my patients, a patellar brace.

3) It has been suggested Petey trained AROUND the knee injury - suggesting hip/hamstring loading in the rehab space It's common knowledge to load the hell outta the quads over time will modifying movement patterns to offload the quad. I can't imagine they didn't do this but looking at how he loads his knee... Something's missing. I've talked with other physio's at work- I mean there's no way the medical staff didn't follow the basics here, right?

4) They absolutely should have taken him out when he was initially diagnosed. The demands of elite sports are so high that 1 week of rest and lower level loads with subsequent weeks of strengthening and plyo loading would have likely had him ready to go in the playoffs. People can absolutely play with tendonitis without having it become degenerative. It's a case by case basis. If it was truly degenerative, his dysfunction would have been far more glaring - obvious limping during or after the game, especially the next day.

5) Every NHL player will have increased scar tissue in their joints - it's the demand of the sport. But not all will require surgery or have pain/dysfunction from it. Adaptive tissue loading is it. Tendon's need to be stiff and have the adaptability to become more or less stiff in a transient manner. During pathology we typically see them become far too stiff but they tend to become more pliable with warming up and loading. He is 100% doing this - it's how we prevent tendon's from getting worse while playing a sport.

6) Finally - almost all athletes (and people) will return to normal high level performance from a typical tendinopathy. The data is clear. They just need the appropriate rehab. There are very few cases in which the tendinopathy was the primary reason for surgery and it's hard to say outcomes improves because of the surgery or because the athlete was forcibly removed from the sport and was more cautious in loading because they had a surgical procedure.

None of the above considers psychosocial factors which not only directly affect the tendon secondarily, but also affects sport performance, pain, and overall function.

 

[Canucker]

A few points
1) Scar tissue on imaging does not immediately suggest a 1:1 relationship in pain and/or dysfunction.

2) Conservative rehab for a tendinopathy, for full return to sport, can take up to 3 months of active rehab with the last few weeks for return to sport. In elite sports, this can be sped up with multiple modalities of rehab and what I often recommend my patients, a patellar brace.

3) It has been suggested Petey trained AROUND the knee injury - suggesting hip/hamstring loading in the rehab space It's common knowledge to load the hell outta the quads over time will modifying movement patterns to offload the quad. I can't imagine they didn't do this but looking at how he loads his knee... Something's missing. I've talked with other physio's at work- I mean there's no way the medical staff didn't follow the basics here, right?

4) They absolutely should have taken him out when he was initially diagnosed. The demands of elite sports are so high that 1 week of rest and lower level loads with subsequent weeks of strengthening and plyo loading would have likely had him ready to go in the playoffs. People can absolutely play with tendonitis without having it become degenerative. It's a case by case basis. If it was truly degenerative, his dysfunction would have been far more glaring - obvious limping during or after the game, especially the next day.

5) Every NHL player will have increased scar tissue in their joints - it's the demand of the sport. But not all will require surgery or have pain/dysfunction from it. Adaptive tissue loading is it. Tendon's need to be stiff and have the adaptability to become more or less stiff in a transient manner. During pathology we typically see them become far too stiff but they tend to become more pliable with warming up and loading. He is 100% doing this - it's how we prevent tendon's from getting worse while playing a sport.

6) Finally - almost all athletes (and people) will return to normal high level performance from a typical tendinopathy. The data is clear. They just need the appropriate rehab. There are very few cases in which the tendinopathy was the primary reason for surgery and it's hard to say outcomes improves because of the surgery or because the athlete was forcibly removed from the sport and was more cautious in loading because they had a surgical procedure.

None of the above considers psychosocial factors which not only directly affect the tendon secondarily, but also affects sport performance, pain, and overall function.

Very informative...thanks for sharing.

 

[Soups On]

Very informative...thanks for sharing.

No problem. I'll send the bill to the HF Van mods of course.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Exactly
The excuses are so wild

You can see it is still in there, like he’ll have entire good periods then mail it in for 2 weeks, but his body language and interest level is insanely poor and have been for a damn long time

Even the most casual of fans are starting to get pissed off.

100% it's very evident he doesn't want to be out there. won't be long until the fans boo him out of the building

I have a feeling the play for a winning team comment backfired on him. For all we know Pettersson had his bags packed and was already headed out the door. Then the Canucks started winning and pressured Pettersson into a corner. Threatening a trade or signing a career changing contract that makes him the fifth highest per year player in the league. Yes Pettersson could be injured. He could be out of shape, or he may not even want to play here. It really could be anything at this point.

I wish I was pressured into a corner with a $12MM signing bonus and a $90MM contract. poor guy

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Counterpoint: he was weak which caused him to develop knee pain in the first place (sorry but I refuse to call patellar tendinitis an “injury”)

Ooh another one of you angry bois. Cool

 

[I am toxic]

A few points
//

6) Finally - almost all athletes (and people) will return to normal high level performance from a typical tendinopathy. The data is clear. They just need the appropriate rehab. There are very few cases in which the tendinopathy was the primary reason for surgery and it's hard to say outcomes improves because of the surgery or because the athlete was forcibly removed from the sport and was more cautious in loading because they had a surgical procedure.

None of the above considers psychosocial factors which not only directly affect the tendon secondarily, but also affects sport performance, pain, and overall function.

Thank you for the excellent response, I believe we are essentially in agreement on the first five points.

However, to suggest that this is a typical tendinopathy does not match with the evidence I have seen.

The typical tendinopathy does not have $96m riding on it, and does not result in the patient playing several months of not just NHL hockey, but also NHL playoff hockey. This is not some randomly selected case that could vary anywhere in intensity, it is Petey's case, we know exactly what he did when the tendinitis was first identified - he was played through it in one of the most grueling sports imaginable. Looking at literature of global outcomes is not how I would address this situation.

He played at high intensity with the inflammation. I can see not see a way that this did not cause scar tissue in the tendon, meaning for that material that in the past would have functioned as a tendon is supposed to, it is no longer doing so, and may be inhibiting the healthy material from functioning to it's fullest. This is consistent with what he has reported, and his drop in play in spring 2024.

My understanding is that scar tissue in the tendon does not heal itself nor go away on its own. Rest, rehab and restrengthening will not change the fact that the tendon is no longer functioning fully nor properly. This is consistent with the failure of whatever nonsurgical rehab was done in summer of 2024.

The only way I am aware of to remove the scar tissue is through surgical debridement. Accordingly, for a guy paid $96m to perform in the NHL, the only possible path to living up to that contract is through surgical debridement. And as I stated earlier, it may be too late, and that even after debridement there is simply not enough material left in the tendon for him to function anywhere near the level he did in the past.

 

[Canucker]

I have a feeling the play for a winning team comment backfired on him. For all we know Pettersson had his bags packed and was already headed out the door. Then the Canucks started winning and pressured Pettersson into a corner. Threatening a trade or signing a career changing contract that makes him the fifth highest per year player in the league. Yes Pettersson could be injured. He could be out of shape, or he may not even want to play here. It really could be anything at this point.

This has been part of my concern...it seems like there is a lot of baggage between EP and management, EP and Miller, apparently EP and the Sedins, EP and the media....he doesn't look happy. He might be saying the right things about wanting to stay in Vancouver, but with all the drama surrounding him over the past couple seasons, he could just be biding his time until the NMC kicks in and then he has more control over the situation and won't get sent somewhere he doesn't want to go.

 

[racerjoe]

This is a pretty bizarre argument. the Petterson Stans are so disingenuous.


coaches fault. new excuse. nice.

Umm? I even said he needs to be more accurate. You took like a fifth of what I said and tried to make it the full quote… way to go…

This is the problem with people who are just going he sucks. They have no ability to look at the evidence and make judgements on what is going on.

People like that deserve the years of failure this team has had.

We are not talking about management's missteps on the defense. Or the Horvat trade. Like what are you even going on about?

We are talking about how some fans are now blaming management for Pettersson's play. Personally I feel like his fall off this year wasn't predictable and anyone saying this is on Alvin is using yet another excuse for Pettersson. Yeah we knew he was rehabbing an injury but the fall to a 50 pt player wasn't something management could have foreseen.

Umm that’s what the conversation that I was commenting on started as.

Someone talked about blaming management for the season being bad, not just Petterssons season.

I blame management on the Pettersson front for A having bad medical staff, and B not doing a good job with media.

 

[Soups On]

Thank you for the excellent response, I believe we are essentially in agreement on the first five points.

However, to suggest that this is a typical tendinopathy does not match with the evidence I have seen.

The typical tendinopathy does not have $96m riding on it, and does not result in the patient playing several months of not just NHL hockey, but also NHL playoff hockey. This is not some randomly selected case that could vary anywhere in intensity, it is Petey's case, we know exactly what he did when the tendinitis was first identified - he was played through it in one of the most grueling sports imaginable. Looking at literature of global outcomes is not how I would address this situation.

He played at high intensity with the inflammation. I can see not see a way that this did not cause scar tissue in the tendon, meaning for that material that in the past would have functioned as a tendon is supposed to, it is no longer doing so, and may be inhibiting the healthy material from functioning to it's fullest. This is consistent with what he has reported, and his drop in play in spring 2024.

My understanding is that scar tissue in the tendon does not heal itself nor go away on its own. Rest, rehab and restrengthening will not change the fact that the tendon is no longer functioning fully nor properly. This is consistent with the failure of whatever nonsurgical rehab was done in summer of 2024.

The only way I am aware of to remove the scar tissue is through surgical debridement. Accordingly, for a guy paid $96m to perform in the NHL, the only possible path to living up to that contract is through surgical debridement. And as I stated earlier, it may be too late, and that even after debridement there is simply not enough material left in the tendon for him to function anywhere near the level he did in the past.

I'll see if I can find my source for you - but there is data in elite basketball players (greater quad and patellar tendon load compared to hockey players) that play through tendonitis until forced shut down and rehab. Full return to sport and performance following conservative rehab - some increases in performance too.

Rest, rehab, and strengthening does restore function even if scar tissue remains. Scar tissue, remember, does not have a 1:1 relationship in pain and function. This is a chronic case of pain and this, as you and I both agree, there are extrinsic biological factors that can impact pain and performance.

Let me find the paper for you and link it

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Just looking for examples around the league:
Can someone explain what happen to Hubreadau and why he suddenly dropped off?
And is there another elite caliber player that dropped off, but bounced back again? (Pls don't say MacKinnon)

Just trying to see if there's another example out there, and how probable will EP40 go through this and come back as a 90/100pt player again? Or will this be first time in the history of NHL if he does actually make a turnaround?

In Huberdeau's case a lot of it seemed to be related to going from a team that was optimally built for his style

(Barkov to do the heavy lifting, he slows the game down a lot and hits the trailer with his incredible vision but needed others to get him the puck which matched Florida but was a horrible fit for Calgary) to a team that couldn't have fit him less if it tried (uptempo forecheck, less focused on skill plays and outnumbered situations but quick strike offense off the rush).

The amount of excuses by the petey cult members is unbelievable

1. He's hurt
2. It's Miller
3. It's Tocchet
4. Well he WAS hurt and didn't train well
5. 1/2 through the season, no longer hurt - rinse and repeat the same excuses

notice a pattern? ZERO accountability on Petey...ZERO

unbelievable

Nobody is saying Petey is playing well.

But like you don't think there's a reason other than 'Swedish man no care'?

I'll take Hronek over Bo, especially considering we had Miller and Petey.

And Miller wouldn't have blown up if he wasn't utterly disgusted at Petey, just like it wasn't an issue until Petey decided to check out last season.

Both are to blame but like I've said in other posts, if Petey just performed like he's supposed to / paid to, so much of what's gone wrong this season would not exist.

Blaming the victim is embarrassing and also not even accurate.

Like, if the abused wife didn't burn the meatloaf than the abuser wouldn't be in jail, right? Surely it's never the bully's fault.

I wonder how it would go over in my work if I blamed my lack of effort and production on

1. My coworker being mean because I'm not doing my job
2. Or blaming My boss

Oh crazy. I guess I didn't know that you worked at the absolute top of your field and had literal billion dollar organizations devoting their entire resources to discovering how to make it impossible to do your job to the best of your abilities.

So the margins at your job are that thin, eh? Curious, what do you do?

 

[kanucks25]

Like, if the abused wife didn't burn the meatloaf than the abuser wouldn't be in jail, right? Surely it's never the bully's fault.

Do we really need to compare what's happening with the Vancouver Canucks to domestic abuse especially when we don't even know the details of what happened?

Like stop with the dramatics.

 

[Hyzer]

Impact of Patellar Tendinopathy on Player Performance in the National Basketball Association

"The explosive nature of the NBA lends itself to a high prevalence of patellar tendinopathy. The high prevalence, combined with its nature as a chronic injury, results in patellar tendinopathy being the leading cause of games missed in the NBA and the second most common orthopaedic injury seen in the NBA,with up to 32% of players reporting symptoms. RTP and performance after patellar tendinopathy has not been previously defined in the NBA population. Not surprisingly, our results demonstrated that every NBA athlete suffering from patellar tendinopathy returned to play. Although there is a high RTP rate, the injury can cause considerable pain and dysfunction. The mean RTP time in the current study was 60 days, although >45% of players returned in <10 days. In comparison, a retrospective analysis performed by Lang et al on 30 athletes who underwent arthroscopic patellar release to treat patellar tendinopathy reported a mean RTP time of 4 months."

Study on NBA players and patellar tendinopathy. Conclusion states usually decreased workload post 1 year then ramped up again, however, most people recovered statisfactorily within a few months to return to play at the same level