LeBrun: Bringing in upper echelon goalie is "pretty big priority" for Leafs.

[stewy04]

They need defenceman! Worst back end in playoffs by a mile. If the could do Marner fir Parayko and Binington or a young forward they should.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

When has any core needed an elite goalie to have deep playoff runs when they are allocating so much money to 4 players?

Edmonton last 3 years have had Skinner + Capmbell/Pickard and have had deep runs b/c their core players dominated

Canes have made ECF + won a few rounds with Andersen despite Andersen being a choker in toronto

Vegas won with Adin Hill who was a journeyman/medicore goalie at time of the trade.

Blues won with Binnington who was not proven at all in 2019 b/c there core dominated

Our core 4 underperforms, which is why the leafs always lose

Maybe I'm sick of having weak minded goalies.

I'm sick of the likes of Samsonov and Campbell and Freddie who crumble and/or quit at the first sign of adversity.

That's why Binner sis on my list he does not lack confidence, he may even be to confident but I'd rather have that then what we have had.

 

[hamzarocks]

Maybe I'm sick of having weak minded goalies.

I'm sick of the likes of Samsonov and Campbell and Freddie who crumble and/or quit at the first sign of adversity.

That's why Binner sis on my list he does not lack confidence, he may even be to confident but I'd rather have that then what we have had.

Im sick of having weak minded centers and wingers in our top 6 choke like dogs year in and year out

If you want an elite goalie get one (saros best one by far on market) but dont keep the choker 4 together

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Im sick of having weak minded centers and wingers in our top 6 choke like dogs year in and year out

If you want an elite goalie get one (saros best one by far on market) but dont keep the choker 4 together

I don't necessarily need an elite goaltender, it would be nice but It's not necessary.

I don't need 930+ goaltending.

Give me somebody that can play 55 games and a save% at 910.

If I can get that consistently I'm good.

Samsonov and Campbell can't do that, Woll can't stay healthy enough to do that.

Find somebody that can do that, if they can do more that's great but at least give me that.

 

[seanlinden]

I don't necessarily need an elite goaltender, it would be nice but It's not necessary.

I don't need 930+ goaltending.

Give me somebody that can play 55 games and a save% at 910.

If I can get that consistently I'm good.

Samsonov and Campbell can't do that, Woll can't stay healthy enough to do that.

Find somebody that can do that, if they can do more that's great but at least give me that.

To be fair... .910 plus for 55 games as a reasonable expectation is elite territory. Nobody is .930 anymore.

That's what Vasilevsky's averaged over the past 3 years. What Bobrovsky has averaged over the last 3 years., and what Saros has averaged over the last 3 years. Hellebuyck, Shesterkin, and Sorokin have been a little better than that over that time.

The challenge is, figure a 55-game goalie sees about 1850 shots per season. The difference between a .905 goalie and a .915 goalie is about 18 goals over a 55-game season. Getting a guy to reliably give you .915 is extremely expensive relative to somebody that can reliably give you .905.

Investing in those guys is also fraught with issues, because you either pay a huge acquistion cost (they're rarely traded), a huge cap hit, or get really lucky in drafting/developing... and then they will eventually "disappoint" with a .905 season, or have a guy making 1/3 to 1/2 of what he does go toe-to-toe in the playoffs.

There's also the element of team identity and approach affecting goalies numbers. In the "Canada Division" the Leafs made a very, very solid commitment to defensive play. The result was that Jack Campbell put up a 2.15GAA and .921 save percentage. He's now in the AHL.

Take any of those elite goalies, put them behind the Leafs D, and on a team that knows it's in good shape for a track meet, and they're probably not so "elite" anymore.

 

[Petes2424]

Pretty much the only thing about Marner attractive to Anaheim is that he plays RW (that & a top RHD are really their only 'needs').

He's a little smaller than what PV said he's trying to build around. Not gritty/willing to play physically (from what I've seen anyway), another big checkmark in PV's shopping list. The well documented playoffs issue. But all of that could be ignored/worked around given MM's production (assuming of course that Marner would even waive for Anaheim...).

However, you hit on 'the' big problem with him. In a vacuum he fairly easily could be paid that much (And Anaheim's available cap space is why they are always mentioned with him in assorted trade threads...without looking at Anaheim's full picture). The Ducks in the next few years are going to have a lot of their upcoming players needing new & well paying contracts. Paying Marner what he's probably going to demand for his next contract (I can't see him taking a pay cut to move to a new team & get paid more in line with what he's actually worth) will destroy PV's bargaining position with the rest of the team, potentially setting up the same situation that Toronto's in right now (a core of 4-5 good/great players taking 50% of the payroll).

And given all that & that to the Ducks at this point, he's not overly valuable, the return that Toronto fans seem to expect won't be coming back. If he's willing to waive 'his' NMC, I could see a Gibson (with some retention but with three years left they probably won't want to do a whole lot), Max Jones (been mentioned in a couple of the aforementioned threads as someone Toronto might like (physical play), & perhaps a later round pick in '25 deal being worked out (I can't see a deal before July 1 to let Toronto pay the big chunk of next year's salary & also sign a new contract immediately...but PV won't want to pay what MM will want...).

Otherwise he'd just be a one year rental. And 'that' could be interesting - it would give MM a season (if he believed in himself) to prove that he'd be worth the bigger contract (to the Ducks or 'x') by demonstrating that his numbers just weren't because of who he was playing with. Potentially/probably with an understanding that if the Ducks weren't contending for the playoffs that he'd be traded to a contender at the TDL. But if he's going to be a rental, even the already fairly minimal offer above would be too much. The Ducks still have one more season (at least) before they're going to be ready to do anything in the playoffs. They really don't 'need' Marner right now (& might make the team good enough to not make the playoffs & miss a higher draft pick...).

And to drag it back around to what the thread was supposed to be about... Gibson's probably available (again, 'if' he waives his NMC), but Marner shouldn't be part of the deal.

And that’s the Leafs dilemma with trying to move Marner in any of these deals for a goaltender. It’s hard justifying the other team wanting Marner right now. That shouldn’t be the case, and historically wouldn’t be, but once you start talking about taking on those kind of salaries, if you’re not careful with them, you’re hurting your team in the long run. Vegas took that chance in Eichel. He was also a 1C and not a winger.

The Leafs had to know this was gonna be an issue when they signed Nylander. To have two wingers making that type of AAV, while also having a 1C already making elite money, it was clear as day they’d have a very limited trade market to move one of them. I doubt a goalie comes back in return for Marner. Maybe I’m wrong and Saros ends up in TO somehow for Marner, but I doubt that’s how they get their goaltender.

 

[DustyDangler]

Personally I believe, and have believed that this teams main issue isn't the core because lots of teams soend 45-50% of their cap on 4 or 5 players that's common.

It is uncommon for teams to spend 45-50% of their cap on 4 forwards.

 

[BostonBob]

No interest in Ullmark. He's fraudulent.

He's not but if he was then he would fit right in with your team.

 

[HockeyVirus]

He's not but if he was then he would fit right in with your team.

Tell me how many playoff series has he won as the starter? What is his career playoff stats?

Next.

 

[BostonBob]

Tell me how many playoff series has he won as the starter? What is his career playoff stats?

Next.

And how many series has your current group won ???

Next.

 

[Forge]

Markstrom is not an "elite starter"... He has 1 year in the last 4 where he's bbeen above a .910 save percentage, or under a 2.60 GAA.

He's a solid #1, but he is not Bobrovsky, Hellebuyck, Vasilevsky, Shesterkin, etc.

I think you also over-estimate the trade value that goalies in general have... they don't tend to require prospects that really "hurt" the other team in the deal, or higher end draft picks.

Could the Leafs first be in play for Markstrom with retention? quite possibly, but I'm pretty confident that the 1st rounder would be the best piece in the deal.

The only "upper echelon" goalie available is Saros (if he's available). Ullmark has upper echelon numbers, but he's not a work horse goalie and I'm not sure you can rely on him to carry a work load in the playoffs, so that removes him from the upper echelon conversation

Markstrom is definitely more in the "above average" category for me. I've said that the primary return asset for him is a 25 protected first as well

 

[HockeyVirus]

And how many series has your current group won ???

Next.

So the solution to a lack of playoff success is to bring in a goalie who has never won a round and has worse stats than any goalies they have played the last several years?

 

[BostonBob]

So the solution to a lack of playoff success is to bring in a goalie who has never won a round and has worse stats than any goalies they have played the last several years?

Well if you don't think Ullmark would be an upgrade over what you currently have then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Well if you don't think Ullmark would be an upgrade over what you currently have then I don't know what to tell you.

Woll > Ullmark AINEC

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I don't necessarily need an elite goaltender, it would be nice but It's not necessary.

I don't need 930+ goaltending.

Give me somebody that can play 55 games and a save% at 910.

If I can get that consistently I'm good.

Samsonov and Campbell can't do that, Woll can't stay healthy enough to do that.

Find somebody that can do that, if they can do more that's great but at least give me that.

Except for the games played in some seasons, they had that in 2016-2017, 2017-2018, 2018-2019, 2020-21, 2021-2022 and 2022-2023, n'est-ce pas ?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Except for the games played in some seasons, they had that in 2016-2017, 2017-2018, 2018-2019, 2020-21, 2021-2022 and 2022-2023, n'est-ce pas ?

the games played are kind of important I do want 910, but 910 over 30 or 40 games is different than 910 over 55 games.

one is a starters load and one is not.

 

[gritdash60]

Get Binnington to Toronto i dare ya, i double dare ya. Man has a high cap-hit and a cup winner. DO IT DO IT!

 

[seanlinden]

The only "upper echelon" goalie available is Saros (if he's available). Ullmark has upper echelon numbers, but he's not a work horse goalie and I'm not sure you can rely on him to carry a work load in the playoffs, so that removes him from the upper echelon conversation

Markstrom is definitely more in the "above average" category for me. I've said that the primary return asset for him is a 25 protected first as well

I guess that brings up the question of "what is upper echelon"?

If it's top 10, then yeah, Saros is the only potential guy available in that.

Where does Markstrom rank amongst the league's goaltenders?

To me there's a group of guys that are clearly better than him. Vasi, Bob, Hellebuyck, Shesterkin, Sorokin, Demko, Saros, Oettenger.

Then there's a group of guys that are a lot younger than him, maybe not as proven, but in some cases have better recent numbers, and who a team would almost certainly take over him. Swayman, Ullmark, Georgiev, Binnington, UPL, are all in this group.

Then you've got guys that are probably simialr to Markstrom -- Andersen, Korpisalo, Talbot, Jarry, Hill, Daccord, Fleury.

So where does that put Markstrom? probably around 15 I would think?

 

[Fatass]

Get Binnington to Toronto i dare ya, i double dare ya. Man has a high cap-hit and a cup winner. DO IT DO IT!

Binny + Kyrou for Marner + Knies?

 

[gritdash60]

Binny + Kyrou for Marner + Knies?

Hahahh sure sure, i don't care i just wanna see Binnington with Toronto media.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

the games played are kind of important I do want 910, but 910 over 30 or 40 games is different than 910 over 55 games.

one is a starters load and one is not.

Or one is "I don"t have a good backup"...

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Or one is "I don"t have a good backup"...

Woll is a fine backup, if he could stay healthy he'd be a starter so far he can't thats why I want a 50-55 game guy.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Woll is a fine backup, if he could stay healthy he'd be a starter so far he can't thats why I want a 50-55 game guy.

Logical link between this post and the post you quoted ?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Logical link between this post and the post you quoted ?

you said they don't have a good enough backup that's not true Woll is at least a good enough backup the only thing stopping him from being a starter is health

 

[Maple Leaf]

What are the options, hfboards?