Brian Burke Presser at 12:00

[firstemperor]

The point is, the Leafs had nothing but holes when he arrived. He filled a lot of them, and positioned himself well post-CBA to fill the remaining two holes.

Let's say the Kessel trade happens for a #1C, but then we're unable to find him competent wingers (Sundin symptom), and gets us a decent #1G instead of Phaneuf. People would be whining about having no #1D, and top line wingers.

I already spoke my mind on Wilson. I wish he would have been fired earlier, but understand why he wasn't.

There are only a handful of "legit" #1D in the league, who can provide you with offense, defense, and grit. Give Phaneuf a Sutter as a defensive partner, and he'll shine. The fact that he's been able to accomplish what he has while being paired with the likes of Aulie, and Gunnarsson speaks volumes.

Ok, so he's filled some holes. There was no where to go but up. Since he didn't get any results on the W-L column, the next objective and important thing to point to is asset accumulation. How did he fair there compared to where one suggests he should have been, from having 4 terrible seasons in a row via the draft?

Sure, people may hypothetically whine about many things. What's the relevance of saying this exactly? I'm assuming your suggesting that it's hard to satisfy fans. If we're judging the entirety of his tenure, he's failed miserably on the win-loss columns, and has had a net loss in terms of accumulated assets compared to what he should have gained (by having 4 high draft picks). You can argue about any thing you want (including suggesting Phaneuf is a #1 defenseman) to fit your narrative, but the totality of his tenure seriously suggests otherwise. In fact, it seems like he has conceded that fact in his presser.

You suggested Phaneuf was a #1 defenseman earlier, but now readily suggest he isn't. It kind of suggests you are saying things just to fit your narrative now. That's not good for any persuasive argument. By the way, my personal opinion is that if your a true #1 defenseman, you don't need to be placed next to guys like Suter to shine. See Chara, Sutter, individually next to guys like Gunnarson. In fact, I feel you are doing an incredible disservice to Gunnarson here, seeing as I strongly feel he's the one bailing out Phaneuf more often than not, and by far, the superior defensive player.

 

[TrueBlue86]

The tagline for that presser should have been "without going into specifics". Expect some more of that corporate BS in the years to come.

i don't care what's said. sometimes saying less is better (something burke should have learned, ironically).

i want accountability with the team on the ice. so far so good. they fired a failing gm. they didn't care because the move seemed controversial.

a lot of the bs about the timing/ effect luongo trade has on this move is bs created by some members of the media.

 

[egd27]

naaaa

if anything bell/rogers will want to keep a good image

they will be accountable to us fans, more so than the teachers were. they knew the didn't want burke at the top. not sure nonnis is the perfect choice. their next hire will be key (if nonnis fails).

listening to prime time sports, shannon was saying they'll get a proper CEO and look to build credibility at all positions in their franchise, like the rest of their businesses

i like it

If were just Rogers or just Bell, I would agree, and you may be completely correct. However I can't shake a nagging feeling that they arent going to function well together.

 

[4evaBlue]

Ok, so he's filled some holes. There was no where to go but up. Since he didn't get any results on the W-L column, the next objective and important thing to point to is asset accumulation. How did he fair there compared to where one suggests he should have been, from having 4 terrible seasons in a row via the draft?

We'll see how his drafting works out in a few years.

Sure, people may hypothetically whine about many things. What's the relevance of saying this exactly? I'm assuming your suggesting that it's hard to satisfy fans. If we're judging the entirety of his tenure, he's failed miserably on the win-loss columns, and has had a net loss in terms of accumulated assets compared to what he should have gained (by having 4 high draft picks).

I'm merely saying he didn't have enough time to fill every single hole on the team. Take a look at the star studded Oilers team. They have a lot of offense (which I don't believe they'll be able to fit under the cap in a few years), but no defense, and no goaltending.

You suggested Phaneuf was a #1 defenseman earlier, but now readily suggest he isn't. It kind of suggests you are saying things just to fit your narrative now. That's not good for any persuasive argument. By the way, my personal opinion is that if your a true #1 defenseman, you don't need to be placed next to guys like Suter to shine. See Chara, Sutter, individually next to guys like Gunnarson. In fact, I feel you are doing an incredible disservice to Gunnarson here, seeing as I strongly feel he's the one bailing out Phaneuf more often than not, and by far, the superior defensive player.

Chara (who is one of the handful of "legit" #1D I eluded to previously) plays in a very disciplined defensive system, with solid two-way forwards to make his job easier. Swap Phaneuf and Chara, put Chara in Wilson's run and gun, and you'd see his weaknesses (mobility) exposed much more. Sutter as a partner was merely an example to illustrate Phaneuf having to play with 2nd/3rd pairing defensemen as his partner during his time here.

Gunnarsson is great (he's the Bozak of our defense in terms of versatility), but he's not a top pairing defensemen on a contender. He has been instructed to ignore his offensive game almost completely, in order to give Phaneuf the green light to pinch. As expected with such a system, Gunnarsson will be the last man back at times "bailing Phaneuf out".

We'll see how our defense looks under a more structured system this season.

 

[Outside99*]

Another annoying factor about some of our fan base through this Burke firing is that so many of you brainwaves assume that MLSE's new board knows nothing about hockey which is complete BS. Bell/Rogers are not like the braindead Teachers Pension Fund. Unlike some of you Burke apologists i believe Bell/Rogers is smart enough to look at a product and evaluate that Burke's team still does not have a legit proven #1 goalie still doesn't have a legit #1 centre and still has a defense core that is not good enough to make the playoffs, again! Add on top of that a slew of Burke blunders.

Looking at the state of Burke's team and his combative personality i'm actually surprised Burke wasn't fired sooner by the new ownership group.

Have you worked at either company, dealt with their upper mgmt or otherwise have personal knowledge of both? If not, then you are in no position to make that statement. I have. In my opinion, Teachers' is way more professional than BCE.

Fact of the matter is, the optics for BCE (and Rogers) are awful. It gives the impression of a political, meddling organization that is not results oriented. Won't give any stakeholders - investors, employees, customers - the warm and fuzzies, that's for sure. I for one have been trying to unload my BCE shares. Unfortunately, so has everyone else...

 

[bcrt2000]

The below article is probably the reason Burke has such an issue with Simmons.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2012/06/05/19841851.html

Actually Simmons confirmed it was this one: http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/01/burke-off-to-afghanistan

 

[goonx]

We didn't have a #1D back then, we have one now.

We didn't have legit top line players back then, we have a couple now.

We didn't have young prospects primed to make an impact on the Leafs back then, we do now.

etc, etc

Perhaps the issue with Burke was with the Kessel Trade and the "fast" rebuild that didn't work out too well.

If we never did the Kessel, we would have gotten at least a #2, #9 and high 2nd rounder. (if not more)

That's our #1C, #1D, #1goalie prospect. This was biggest downfall of Burke IMO. Every GM makes mistakes but this was costly.

He did bring a bunch of assets into the organization with the phaneuf, kaberle and lebda trades. That was his biggest success. Time will tell whether these players will play a role in our success in the near future.

For his tenure, I think his (and many leaf fans's) impatience to do a proper rebuild lead us down to this road. I would honestly rather be more like EDM where we have a handful of core future stars develop and bring us the cup.

 

[BobbyFischer*]

Am I the only one who teared up a bit watching Burkie's presser?

=[

 

[goonx]

Am I the only one who teared up a bit watching Burkie's presser?

=[

the interview was worse... his eyes were all watery.

 

[diceman934]

Exactly and I was hoping when they hired Burke they had finally figured it out. Unfortunately these new owners are likely similar to the many armchair gm's around here More vocals than brains.

I'm actually going to miss the way Burke dealt with the media. It's exactly the way they should be treated if they're going to ask dumb questions and beat their chest like they could actually do the job. It's why I liked Quinn as well. I'm sure everyone will be quite content with the politically correctness that will now be the Maple Leafs.

I would settle for a person who does as he say's......Burke talked the talked.....but did not walk the walk.....hence he was fired.

 

[charliolemieux]

Perhaps the issue with Burke was with the Kessel Trade and the "fast" rebuild that didn't work out too well.

If we never did the Kessel, we would have gotten at least a #2, #9 and high 2nd rounder. (if not more)

That's our #1C, #1D, #1goalie prospect. This was biggest downfall of Burke IMO. Every GM makes mistakes but this was costly.

He did bring a bunch of assets into the organization with the phaneuf, kaberle and lebda trades. That was his biggest success. Time will tell whether these players will play a role in our success in the near future.

For his tenure, I think his (and many leaf fans's) impatience to do a proper rebuild lead us down to this road. I would honestly rather be more like EDM where we have a handful of core future stars develop and bring us the cup.

LIke Kessel, Rielly, JVR and Gardiner?

 

[charliolemieux]

I would settle for a person who does as he say's......Burke talked the talked.....but did not walk the walk.....hence he was fired.

Another one who says "Burke was full of ****", and then says the reason he should be fired is because he didn't so exactly what he said he would do. OR in other words fired because he is full of ****.

Total personality issue. Which blinds you to anything positive BRian did while he was here.

 

[diceman934]

Another one who says "Burke was full of ****", and then says the reason he should be fired is because he didn't so exactly what he said he would do. OR in other words fired because he is full of ****.

Total personality issue. Which blinds you to anything positive BRian did while he was here.

Seriously?

If Burke built from the net out and was strong down the middle and we were hard to play against and were a contender now.....do you think he would have been fired.....nope. He failed to produce what he said he could within the time frame he stated.

I never said he did not do anything positive.....he made some fantastic trades....getting Gardner and Lupul and Franson ( he will have a great year) etc was great.

He also made some very poor decisions on free agents and some poor trades.....

 

[4evaBlue]

Perhaps the issue with Burke was with the Kessel Trade and the "fast" rebuild that didn't work out too well.

If we never did the Kessel, we would have gotten at least a #2, #9 and high 2nd rounder. (if not more)

And we still wouldn't have gotten any better in the standings, and Burke still would have been fired because of his style.

I think I'm a minority in the belief that there was no "accelerated rebuild" and Burke didn't switch gears after the Kessel trade. He saw an opportunity to obtain an elite player, who would be in his primes by the time the team was ready to compete. His mistake was misjudging the team (this is mostly on Wilson), and not lottery protecting the picks.

That's our #1C, #1D, #1goalie prospect. This was biggest downfall of Burke IMO. Every GM makes mistakes but this was costly.

Seguin plays the wing, Hamilton could very easily end up as a 2nd pairing defensemen (his hockey IQ seems very questionable), and I seriously doubt we would have used the 2nd rounder on a goalie.

For his tenure, I think his (and many leaf fans's) impatience to do a proper rebuild lead us down to this road. I would honestly rather be more like EDM where we have a handful of core future stars develop and bring us the cup.

How long will it take them to sort out their defense and goaltending? Will the likes of Yak (and potentially MacKinnon) be content playing 2nd line roles/minutes? Will Yak and RNH take similar hometown discounts through their prime years as Hall and Eberle did? There are still a lot of question marks.

I personally think they should have traded down for this year's draft, and obtained a couple of elite defensive prospects. It seems like, for whatever reason, they're still focused on drafting forwards. Wonder how MacKinnon will look on their 2nd line.

 

[diceman934]

And we still wouldn't have gotten any better in the standings, and Burke still would have been fired because of his style.

I think I'm a minority in the belief that there was no "accelerated rebuild" and Burke didn't switch gears after the Kessel trade. He saw an opportunity to obtain an elite player, who would be in his primes by the time the team was ready to compete. His mistake was misjudging the team (this is mostly on Wilson), and not lottery protecting the picks.

Edmonton will not finish in a position to draft in the top 5 this year...they will be close to the playoffs and may make it in.

Seguin plays the wing, Hamilton could very easily end up as a 2nd pairing defensemen (his hockey IQ seems very questionable), and I seriously doubt we would have used the 2nd rounder on a goalie.



How long will it take them to sort out their defense and goaltending? Will the likes of Yak (and potentially MacKinnon) be content playing 2nd line roles/minutes? Will Yak and RNH take similar hometown discounts through their prime years as Hall and Eberle did? There are still a lot of question marks.

I personally think they should have traded down for this year's draft, and obtained a couple of elite defensive prospects. It seems like, for whatever reason, they're still focused on drafting forwards. Wonder how MacKinnon will look on their 2nd line.

Edmonton will not finish in a position to draft in the top 5 this year...they will be close to the playoffs and may make it in.

 

[firstemperor]

Another one who says "Burke was full of ****", and then says the reason he should be fired is because he didn't so exactly what he said he would do. OR in other words fired because he is full of ****.

Total personality issue. Which blinds you to anything positive BRian did while he was here.

You seriously think personality means anything if he got results? And I don't just mean win-losses, but his asset accumulation was beyond terrible. Worst than the norm expectations, based on the fact he finished terrible for 4 straight seasons.

Burke even said himself in his presser that he could have been the most obnoxious person but he wouldn't have been sitting in the presser that day (i.e fired) had he gotten results. Period. Again, another disillusioned fan who will say anything to fit his narrative. It seems like you are the one that is blinded by your own subjectivity.

 

[4evaBlue]

Edmonton will not finish in a position to draft in the top 5 this year...they will be close to the playoffs and may make it in.

Time will tell, but I don't see their team as much better than they were last season.

 

[diceman934]

Time will tell, but I don't see their team as much better than they were last season.

Edmonton will be much better.....lots of improvements ......Dub looked good at the Spangler Cup. Schultz is a huge upgrade on D and their young stars are another year older....

I say they move up many spots.....and have a chance to make the playoffs and if so.....make some noise!

 

[charliolemieux]

Seriously?

If Burke built from the net out and was strong down the middle and we were hard to play against and were a contender now.....do you think he would have been fired.....nope. He failed to produce what he said he could within the time frame he stated.

I never said he did not do anything positive.....he made some fantastic trades....getting Gardner and Lupul and Franson ( he will have a great year) etc was great.

He also made some very poor decisions on free agents and some poor trades.....

IF it were strictly a hockey decision it would have been made last year before the lockout.

 

[charliolemieux]

You seriously think personality means anything if he got results? And I don't just mean win-losses, but his asset accumulation was beyond terrible. Worst than the norm expectations, based on the fact he finished terrible for 4 straight seasons.

Burke even said himself in his presser that he could have been the most obnoxious person but he wouldn't have been sitting in the presser that day (i.e fired) had he gotten results. Period. Again, another disillusioned fan who will say anything to fit his narrative. It seems like you are the one that is blinded by your own subjectivity.

Right. BUt he wasn't given a Mercedes and told to turn it inot a Rolls Royce. He was handed a Gremlin and told to turn it into a Ferrari. The results should have been expected.

NO doubt if he had performed some miracle and the LEafs finished 8th last year he still has his job.

BUt anyone who isn't disillusioned can see this franchise is way better off since he got here.


Results would have overlooked his personality but it was his personality that got him fired, not a lack of results.

Can you grasp that? I only ask because I have had issues in the past where people can't see both sides of an issue.

 

[diceman934]

Right. BUt he wasn't given a Mercedes and told to turn it inot a Rolls Royce. He was handed a Gremlin and told to turn it into a Ferrari. The results should have been expected.

NO doubt if he had performed some miracle and the LEafs finished 8th last year he still has his job.

BUt anyone who isn't disillusioned can see this franchise is way better off since he got here.


Results would have overlooked his personality but it was his personality that got him fired, not a lack of results.

Can you grasp that? I only ask because I have had issues in the past where people can't see both sides of an issue.

You seem to believe what Burke has said in the past and he stated that it was because he failed to produce...he said when they were discussing the why as to his firing that they never mentioned anything other then hockey related issues.

 

[Im Old Gregggg]

You seem to believe what Burke has said in the past and he stated that it was because he failed to produce...he said when they were discussing the why as to his firing that they never mentioned anything other then hockey related issues.

because hes being PAID (still under contract) to keep his mouth shut........
if you can read body language you can CLEARLY see that this is personal

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

BUt anyone who isn't disillusioned can see this franchise is way better off since he got here.

Results would have overlooked his personality but it was his personality that got him fired, not a lack of results.

Can you grasp that? I only ask because I have had issues in the past where people can't see both sides of an issue.

Prove it. Show us in a way you can quantify -- which in pro sports means show us some numbers -- that the Leafs are "way better off" today than they were under Ferguson.

I won't hold my breath, though, because you can't. Burke took a bottom-feeder and turned it into...a bottom-feeder. You can rant all you want about Gardiner and Rielly and Kessel and Phaneuf, but the bottom line is that the Leafs are still one of the worst teams in the entire NHL. There are huge holes to be filled in net, at #1C, on wing, and on D. And even after all of the losing and terrible finishes, the Leafs still have a prospect pool that ranks well below where it should for a club that hasn't made the playoffs in going on a decade.

Personality is an issue, too. Burke told everyone he didn't believe in long rebuilds, was going to do it all his way, was going to build a tough team, blah, blah, blah. And then promptly crapped the bed by never living up to anything he had promised. How can anyone take a guy like that seriously? He undermined his own credibility with this sort of nonsense. Same with how he continued to defend Wilson, even after it was clear that the team wasn't responding to him, and that the rumors about the disconnect between him and the players was a very real issue.

It's all on Burke, not on MLSE. He did all of this to himself with dumb moves and even dumber pronouncements to the public.

It's just crazy that some here want to make George Cope out as the villain in all of this. Crazy. I can't stand MLSE, either. But for heaven's sake people, take a look at Burke's record. The only controversial aspect of this move is the timing, because Burke should have been canned with Wilson last March. Or both should have gone together right at the end of the season.

 

[diceman934]

because hes being PAID (still under contract) to keep his mouth shut........
if you can read body language you can CLEARLY see that this is personal

He can tell the truth and in no way would it void his contract.....

 

[Im Old Gregggg]

Prove it. Show us in a way you can quantify -- which in pro sports means show us some numbers -- that the Leafs are "way better off" today than they were under Ferguson.

I won't hold my breath, though, because you can't. Burke took a bottom-feeder and turned it into...a bottom-feeder. You can rant all you want about Gardiner and Rielly and Kessel and Phaneuf, but the bottom line is that the Leafs are still one of the worst teams in the entire NHL. There are huge holes to be filled in net, at #1C, on wing, and on D. And even after all of the losing and terrible finishes, the Leafs still have a prospect pool that ranks well below where it should for a club that hasn't made the playoffs in going on a decade.

Personality is an issue, too. Burke told everyone he didn't believe in long rebuilds, was going to do it all his way, was going to build a tough team, blah, blah, blah. And then promptly crapped the bed by never living up to anything he had promised. How can anyone take a guy like that seriously? He undermined his own credibility with this sort of nonsense. Same with how he continued to defend Wilson, even after it was clear that the team wasn't responding to him, and that the rumors about the disconnect between him and the players was a very real issue.

It's all on Burke, not on MLSE. He did all of this to himself with dumb moves and even dumber pronouncements to the public.

It's just crazy that some here want to make George Cope out as the villain in all of this. Crazy. I can't stand MLSE, either. But for heaven's sake people, take a look at Burke's record. The only controversial aspect of this move is the timing, because Burke should have been canned with Wilson last March. Or both should have gone together right at the end of the season.

id like to see anyone flip stajan, hagman, blake, toskala etc into a contender into that span ...... the talent level of the team has improved immensly since burke took the reigns (I think coaching was one of the main sticking points for not improving.... which in my books in burkes biggest downfall) there are pieces here that will very likely lead us to success down the road thanks to burke and he certainly left the roster in much better shape than fergusson left for him

For people *****ing about a #1 center and #1 goalie, and a top ranked defence stick a sock in it im sure burke could have fixed that within the next 1.5 seasons (how many #1 centers and goalies were made available in free agency or in trades during his tenure? NOT MANY you gotta draft those types of players and unfortunantly we werent in that position). Those positions arent easy to fill but if burke wasnt fired at a random time and they let him ride the half season out to see if the team makes the playoffs he may have filled those holes (luongo available could solve our #1, if we make the playoffs and getzlaf makes it to FA we could have an inside edge, out blueline is filled with alot of depth right now thats hasnt played with our big club yet (holzer/ranger/to an extent franson) and some promising prospects in the pipeline (rielly, finn, percy etc)

And while he dont fit the "belligerent" mold looking at our prospect pool i see us getting tougher to play against in the future.