Value of: Brett Pesce

[loki2185]

We forget that hockey is a business. If you go to an electronics store and can buy a 50-inch TV for $410 or a 65-inch TV for $700, then surely you are considering what you could do with the additional $290. I am a huge Pesce fan and admit Nylander is a better player, but I don't think he is 70% better, which is likely the difference in pay. Same with Marner except he is a 75-inch TV for $800.

So to answer your question: In a salary cap league I would choose Pesce.

hockey is also a sport of war id take the fully automatic assault rifle (nylander) over a bulletproof vest (pesce) and a pellet gun (3rd line scrub you get with that extra $290)

 

[Sundinisagod]

whats dumb is you guys cant admit nylander is clearly more valuable than pesce.

Nylander, as a holdout (rumored to be) demanding about 2 million above market value is not "clearly more valuable than Pesce".

If Nylander was signed to a market value contract, his value at best, is even to Pesce.

 

[Razz]

Why would the Canes trade Pesce? He is signed long term to a great contract, and he is a very good player that plays a position teams will have to overpay for.

Why? To get a much better player in return. Not that this is ever going to happen anyway. The Leafs aren't giving away Nylander unless it's equal value and no such player is available at the moment.

 

[Fogelhund]

He's not. I'd rather have an elite shutdown RHD that has scoring upside and anchors both our PK and can easily play on a 1st pairing for $4M per year for the next 6 years than a holdout primadona RW that has stagnated at 60 points, is likely carried by his center given his current RW went from blah to wow, and likely won't sign for less than $7M per year.

Yep. Unless the return for Nylander is a guy who routinely shows up to All-star games, it's not a good value. Nylander is a star top line forward and will be a legit #1C in his own right.

These posts, are exactly what is wrong with HF boards posters...

The Hyperbole is ridiculous from both sides. Somehow. Brett Pesce, going into his fourth season in the NHL, at a career high of 20 points, has scoring upside, while Nylander, going into only his third season, doesn't. I doubt MinJaBen has even watched Nylander, or knows much about him given this post. He most certainly hasn't seen him play without Matthews, to make such ridiculous claims.. including playing C for Sweden and winning the MVP at the World Hockey Championships. But, to say he is a star top line forward, and will be a legit #1C is equally hyperbolic.

It's nice when there are sane fans on both sides, who can have intelligent conversations, without completely biased opinions. Thanks to those Hurricanes fans who can talk rationally, even when value isn't fully agreed upon.

Pesce would be a great addition to the Leafs... he may have some offensive upside too. He'd greatly improve our D core.
Nylander is a very good RW, has played C effectively and has quite a bit of upside.

Here is the bottom line. Carolina currently leads the Metro, and doesn't have much incentive to make changes. Having said that, their offense sputtered in the last two games, both losses. As the season progresses, we'll see where the chips fall. Pesce is a solid D, and a very good player, so is Nylander... no need to bash each other's players.

 

[Fogelhund]

Why? To get a much better player in return. Not that this is ever going to happen anyway. The Leafs aren't giving away Nylander unless it's equal value and no such player is available at the moment.

That's the thing though... you can make a trade, for more than a 1:1 player. While HF Boards posters from different teams won't agree on value, it is possible to make a deal that nets in being equal, with multiple pieces moved. Adding a player like Gauthier, Bean or Kukkanen might make the deal work on all sides... Some of those guys aren't quite enough to even the deal out, some Toronto probably still needs to add... and that's ok too. Deals can be made to work.

 

[ITM]

So 3 more points do not make a superior or even equivalent defenseman. Brett Pesce is clearly the superior player, even if he scores slightly less. Nutivaara starts significantly more in the O zone than Pesce (56.2% to 49.9%). Pesce's takeaway numbers are vastly superior and his giveaway numbers are equally better. Pesce blocks more shots and, for a guy not know for it, throws more hits. By almost every defensive metric (Nutivaara has a slightly better career +/-), Pesce is the better player.

I'm not aware of Nutivaara's availability, but I'd be very surprised if the Canes gave Pesce up in a trade. All of these discussions have been more about hypothetical value. When it comes down to it, Brett Pesce is super valuable to the Hurricanes and I doubt they are considering moving him....but crazier things have happened.

I’d have to confirm the defensive numbers, but my point is, Pesce at a proposed (and outlandish) cost of Nylander isnt redefining our club. Given the option of having Pesce at the cost of Nylander vs Nutivaara while retaining Nylander, the latter is the much better option for Toronto.

 

[Razz]

These posts, are exactly what is wrong with HF boards posters...

The Hyperbole is ridiculous from both sides. Somehow. Brett Pesce, going into his fourth season in the NHL, at a career high of 20 points, has scoring upside, while Nylander, going into only his third season, doesn't. I doubt MinJaBen has even watched Nylander, or knows much about him given this post. He most certainly hasn't seen him play without Matthews, to make such ridiculous claims.. including playing C for Sweden and winning the MVP at the World Hockey Championships. But, to say he is a star top line forward, and will be a legit #1C is equally hyperbolic.

It's nice when there are sane fans on both sides, who can have intelligent conversations, without completely biased opinions. Thanks to those Hurricanes fans who can talk rationally, even when value isn't fully agreed upon.

Pesce would be a great addition to the Leafs... he may have some offensive upside too. He'd greatly improve our D core.
Nylander is a very good RW, has played C effectively and has quite a bit of upside.

Here is the bottom line. Carolina currently leads the Metro, and doesn't have much incentive to make changes. Having said that, their offense sputtered in the last two games, both losses. As the season progresses, we'll see where the chips fall. Pesce is a solid D, and a very good player, so is Nylander... no need to bash each other's players.

No, just stop. Nylander is worth a full-on blue-chip player of the same age. Otherwise, forget it. Nylander is a phenomenal player and is going nowhere.

 

[Fogelhund]

No, just stop. Nylander is worth a full-on blue-chip player of the same age. Otherwise, forget it. Nylander is a phenomenal player and is going nowhere.

I will let posters from other teams sit back and laugh at this. Wingers don't get existing proven top pairing Blue-Chip D in return. You could probably work out deals for a Bouchard/Dobson type of prospect, similar to the Drouin/Sergachev deal.... if NYI or Edmonoton were interested in a deal... and I'm not saying that they are. In principle, they are fairly similar in that Nylander and Drouin sat out, had significant upside.. though Drouin was still on his ELC... and it's dependent on Nylander being signed first, around $6.5 at the most... if his contract is higher, or he is unsigned, his value drops.

If Nylander was a proven #1C, sure, you might be able to get the top D you are suggesting... but he's not.

Someone is moving, it is doubtful that we can afford everyone at this point, particularly when there is a hole on defense, and as the saying goes, defense wins championships.

 

[howkie]

Why? To get a much better player in return. Not that this is ever going to happen anyway. The Leafs aren't giving away Nylander unless it's equal value and no such player is available at the moment.

Nylander had no player of equal value atm, Ritchie has signed, so Nylander is uniqe

 

[StreetHawk]

There’s so few teams that are deep enough on the RHD side that they can move one of their top 2 guys.

Nash did but Jones was moved back in 15-16.
Ana did but they moved Vatanen last season. If the Leafs coveted Manson so much they needed to make that move before the Vatanen deal was completed. Ducks left with Manson and Montour and their upcoming D are left shots.
STL has 3 with AP, Parayko, and Dunn. But they already upgraded their C position and since Allen isn’t a top rated goalie they are better keeping their D.
Carolina has depth on the right side.
Minnesota has dumba and spurgeon. Unlikely to move a right side guy.

Maybe Colorado will once Makar makes the roster. But given his style it’s more likely that they move Barrie over Johnson. Timmins is another rhd who isn’t huge.

I really don’t see that one for one option for Nylander. Until Nylander gets the opportunity to showcase himself at C like Aho this year, I don’t see much changing offer wise. It’s so hard to find Right side blue liners.

 

[firstemperor]

There’s so few teams that are deep enough on the RHD side that they can move one of their top 2 guys.

Nash did but Jones was moved back in 15-16.
Ana did but they moved Vatanen last season. If the Leafs coveted Manson so much they needed to make that move before the Vatanen deal was completed. Ducks left with Manson and Montour and their upcoming D are left shots.
STL has 3 with AP, Parayko, and Dunn. But they already upgraded their C position and since Allen isn’t a top rated goalie they are better keeping their D.
Carolina has depth on the right side.
Minnesota has dumba and spurgeon. Unlikely to move a right side guy.

Maybe Colorado will once Makar makes the roster. But given his style it’s more likely that they move Barrie over Johnson. Timmins is another rhd who isn’t huge.

I really don’t see that one for one option for Nylander. Until Nylander gets the opportunity to showcase himself at C like Aho this year, I don’t see much changing offer wise. It’s so hard to find Right side blue liners.

Most, if not all of those teams you have listed have had problems or ongoing problems with their C position as well, which Nylander would help solve down the line.

 

[MinJaBen]

These posts, are exactly what is wrong with HF boards posters...

I like how you pronounce judgement on what is wrong with posts on the trade board between two others arguing about player values, then in the next post set your own values for certain players like it is fact. Be careful when you dismount your high horse...

 

[tarheelhockey]

I say both players should have a literal physical fight to prove who's better.

 

[Negan4Coach]

Dude, this is the most punishing thread. Clearly Pesce straight up for Nylander would be fair, although lets face it kind of skewed towards Toronto. A solid young D man who routinely shuts down top forwards in the league is less common then a young C who scores 20 goals.

That being said both are likely too precious to either team to part with, especially from Carolina's perspective. I can't really understand why Toronto is so bent on holding on to him, since they have tons of other great forwards for christsakes.

 

[Chan790]

no my question is if you could only choose one of nylander marner or pesce to start building a team around who would you pick. because people are saying the leafs players dont get pesce straight up in a 1 for 1 deal when pesce clearly has no business being mentioned with nylander and marner

Marner
Pesce
...
Nylander (distant third)

Top-6 W, except the proven best ones (no "potentials" here), don't merit being in the same discussion as top Cs or top-pair RHD.

 

[Fogelhund]

I like how you pronounce judgement on what is wrong with posts on the trade board between two others arguing about player values, then in the next post set your own values for certain players like it is fact. Be careful when you dismount your high horse...

I don't mind talking with rational and intelligent posters about value, but not ones who deal in hyperbole on either side of the fence.

 

[MinJaBen]

I don't mind talking with rational and intelligent posters about value, but not ones who deal in hyperbole on either side of the fence.

And yet, your actions continue to say otherwise. I quite like hyperbole....it is by far the best way to win an argument. AINEC.

 

[StreetHawk]

Most, if not all of those teams you have listed have had problems or ongoing problems with their C position as well, which Nylander would help solve down the line.

But I also noted that Aho this year has transitioned to C. That’s something Nylander needs to show as well. He’s played well as a winger, prove it as a C. But he won’t be getting time at C with Toronto not either the depth they have.

And most of those teams have moved on.

Blues added ROR and Schenn and Bozeman at C? Elite? No, but solid 2 way and they have an elite winger in Tarasenko and a pretty good one in Schwartz. Think they are done.

Anaheim, they have Getzlaf. Think they are banking on Steel to take some offense off Kesler.

Nashville made their move already.

Minnesota, moving dumba leaves them precariously thin on the right side. They are kind of stuck between not being good enough but not terrible. Not sure they can move in either direction just doing what they have been.

Carolina, Aho looks like he’s doing well at C. Still have Staal.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Carolina, Aho looks like he’s doing well at C. Still have Staal.

If Nylander were proven at C and signed to a long term, team friendly deal (like Pesce), the 'Canes probably would send Pesce. But he hasn't proven it.

No, just stop. Nylander is worth a full-on blue-chip player of the same age. Otherwise, forget it. Nylander is a phenomenal player and is going nowhere.

He's an RFA holdout.

Prediction: Car is gonna send their 2019 1st, Buff's second and Jake Bean/Julien Gauthier.

 

[MinJaBen]

Prediction: Car is gonna send their 2019 1st, Buff's second and Jake Bean/Julien Gauthier.

I think it will be Faulk and one or more of those pieces. The Leafs called about Faulk over the summer but didn’t like the price. With Nylander holding out longer then they thought, and Faulk looking more like his old self so far, I bet they reconsider if we hit November without any resolution.

 

[crowi]

With Aho becoming the 1C he is and Carolina's offense clicking, why would they trade one of their best defensemen to acquire a dude who 1. needs a contract 2. wants a ridiculous contract 3. is afraid of contact 4. has not proven anything on his own.

 

[spockBokk]

With Aho becoming the 1C he is and Carolina's offense clicking, why would they trade one of their best defensemen to acquire a dude who 1. needs a contract 2. wants a ridiculous contract 3. is afraid of contact 4. has not proven anything on his own.

It’s like...this guy gets it...

If, and I’d say this is a very big IF, CAR deals for Nylander, he will have a contract in place. It makes no sense to trade solid assets for an unknown.

 

[Negan4Coach]

I think it will be Faulk and one or more of those pieces. The Leafs called about Faulk over the summer but didn’t like the price. With Nylander holding out longer then they thought, and Faulk looking more like his old self so far, I bet they reconsider if we hit November without any resolution.

I agree. If it happens it will be Faulk, a pick, and a prospect. And the Leafs will be happy about it, even as this place burns.

 

[Michoulicious]

I think Pesce for Nylander would be fair. Nylander is obviously the player with the best upside, but is going to cost a pretty penny to sign long term.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

I agree. If it happens it will be Faulk, a pick, and a prospect. And the Leafs will be happy about it, even as this place burns.

I think I would die laughing if Faulk was the main piece going to Toronto for Nylander.

Still think I’d rather see him end up in Edmonton, though, just to see one posters reaction.