Player Discussion Brett Howden

[CasusBelli]

For I am the lord, and I will strike upon thee with great vengeance!

Or is that Haley?

 

[Edge]

I’ve penciled him in as this year’s whipping boy.

Oh yeah, it's already obvious.

Along with the "No he's not, he just sucks!" comments already cued from the people who use him as such.

And here's the thing that people don't understand. The reason why people who have been here for a long time point this out is because we've literally seen it for more than 20 years.

It follows almost an identical pattern and you can almost write comments where all someone has to do is insert the name of the player. Otherwise there's almost no way to tell the difference between whether the post was made in 1999, 2009 or 2019. It's that formulaic.

On the flip side, there are also sacred cows where the player will get every single benefit of the doubt, or always have some comment about how it's not their fault, or praise was even the most mundane of plays or average of games.

And then there's the players in the middle for whom it depends on the game, the week, the month and the mood. These are the guys who are future allstars one minute, and someone we need to trade immediately before the rest of the world catches on to their apparent shittyness.

It's just one of those things unique and charming/frustrating things that is ingrained into the culture of these boards.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

And then there's the players in the middle for whom it depends on the game, the week, the month and the mood. These are the guys who are future allstars one minute, and someone we need to trade immediately before the rest of the world catches on to their apparent ****tyness.

It also works the other way. Like Lias Andersson. He went from bust to 2C.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Isn't a 'whipping boy' someone blamed for others' faults? I'm not sure I've seen that take on Howden anywhere. Plenty of people, myself included, thought he was not good last year. Plenty of people felt he was not good in the pre-season. Is it a hot take to say that the 21 year old isn't NHL ready even though he played a full season? If anything, most of the harshest takes re: Howden seem to be indictments of the coaching staff or management--exactly opposite of making him a whipping boy.

 

[Machinehead]

For I am the lord, and I will strike upon thee with great vengeance!

Or is that Haley?

It's Haley

 

[Edge]

It also works the other way. Like Lias Andersson. He went from bust to 2C.

And if he stumbles, the bust talk will pick right back up where it left off.

 

[Edge]

Isn't a 'whipping boy' someone blamed for others' faults? I'm not sure I've seen that take on Howden anywhere. Plenty of people, myself included, thought he was not good last year. Plenty of people felt he was not good in the pre-season. Is it a hot take to say that the 21 year old isn't NHL ready even though he played a full season? If anything, most of the harshest takes re: Howden seem to be indictments of the coaching staff or management--exactly opposite of making him a whipping boy.

I'm seeing and have seen threads where he's blamed for Andersson not getting time, for Chytil not getting more time, for Chytil and Kravtsov being sent down, etc.

So yeah, it kind of is bleeding into other subjects.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I'm seeing and have seen threads where he's blamed for Andersson not getting time, for Chytil not getting more time, for Chytil and Kravtsov being sent down, etc.

So yeah, it kind of is bleeding into other subjects.

He's blamed? Howden doesn't decide his usage...

 

[Trxjw]

I do kind of shake my head at how long of a leash Andersson is given as a prospect in terms of "he's still developing" vs Howden considering Andersson is only 6 months younger and developed in a league against men.

 

[Edge]

He's blamed? Howden doesn't decide his usage...

Exactly.

 

[Edge]

I do kind of shake my head at how long of a leash Andersson is given as a prospect in terms of "he's still developing" vs Howden considering Andersson is only 6 months younger and developed in a league against men.

I agree, and personally I like both guys a lot.

I think all of these kids --- from Howden/Andersson/Chytil, to Kravtsov and Kakko, to Fox and ADA are still works in progress, and in some cases, so unbelievably early in their journeys.

I know we all "get it" but on some level we really don't.

Even if they all pan out, which they wont, we're going to see a lot of ugly hockey to get to that point.

 

[Kocur Dill]

I do kind of shake my head at how long of a leash Andersson is given as a prospect in terms of "he's still developing" vs Howden considering Andersson is only 6 months younger and developed in a league against men.

Not going after you Trxjw, just jumping off your post as a counter point to this line of thinking shared by a few as I read the threads to this point.


I see it as Andersson is "our" guy and Howden is "some guy" we picked up. But also, Andersson is noticeable, always. Howden you notice when he actually does something. Howden doesn't make bad plays, but he doesn't exactly create either. Not saying Lias is a magician, but the two play a different game. As Tort's would put it, Howden plays a "safe game" and in the NHL "Safe is Death". You have to take chances and be better at it than the competition.

For example, and I'm sure someone will pick this apart with semantics about the caliber of players I've chosen instead of the abstract similarities. We had Verbeek and Robitaille in 95/96. For the most part, they did what they were paid to do. Put up star points. But Beeker was a catalyst in all situations and Lucky Luc was passive until a scoring opportunity presented itself.

Who left the team eventually and left fans with a better image? Verbeek by a long shot.

I think the same could be said for Andersson up to this point. (Again, not directly comparing Lias to Beeker)

Nothing bad about Howden, just those two are pushing for pretty much the same position and the other has to be happy at 3c, or is possibly a trade booster when we ship out Kreider. Our pool is too deep and we obviously can't keep all the kids, we can't waste them, and we can't ice a team of them.

I imagine this place will be bumping with angry posts about kids being shipped out and "what ifs" the next handful of seasons. It's not a bad situation to be in for an organization that traded away so many consecutive 1st's not too long ago.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I do kind of shake my head at how long of a leash Andersson is given as a prospect in terms of "he's still developing" vs Howden considering Andersson is only 6 months younger and developed in a league against men.

You must not have ventured into the Lias thread before last month...

 

[Raspewtin]

I do kind of shake my head at how long of a leash Andersson is given as a prospect in terms of "he's still developing" vs Howden considering Andersson is only 6 months younger and developed in a league against men.

Where is this long leash Andersson is getting? Especially in comparison to Howden?

 

[Edge]

Where is this long leash Andersson is getting? Especially in comparison to Howden?

I think we're been hard on both of them to this point.

Having said that, I do think there's more of a mindset that Andersson is still a young "prospect" whereas Howden is a young "player" who is already further along in development.

I can see that to an extent. Some of it's because of their draft years, but I do think we tend to view Howden through more of the prism of a kid who is 23 and stalling and not a very young player who is only 6 months older than Andersson, has played only 17 or so more games, is and still very much developing.

They are much closer in their timelines than I think people inherently think. And I think I'm a little guilty of that myself --- despite thinking highly of both players.

 

[Trxjw]

You must not have ventured into the Lias thread before last month...

Where is this long leash Andersson is getting? Especially in comparison to Howden?

Andersson has a large number of people on this board who support him the same way people support Howden. Some people view Howden through a very different lens than they view Andersson and vice versa. Everyone is subject to bias and favoritism.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Andersson has a large number of people on this board who support him the same way people support Howden. Some people view Howden through a very different lens than they view Andersson and vice versa. Everyone is subject to bias and favoritism.

If you're referring to me, I would say that I definitely have been one of the most vocal advocates of giving Lias time before making sweeping evaluations. I've also never suggested Howden should be treated differently.

 

[Trxjw]

I agree, and personally I like both guys a lot.

I think all of these kids --- from Howden/Andersson/Chytil, to Kravtsov and Kakko, to Fox and ADA are still works in progress, and in some cases, so unbelievably early in their journeys.

I know we all "get it" but on some level we really don't.

Even if they all pan out, which they wont, we're going to see a lot of ugly hockey to get to that point.

Well said. The ebb and flow of prospect development is too vast to view through the lens of just preseason or just one year. Andersson has gone from long-shot to make an impact this fall to definitely deserving of the 2C role all on the back of fewer than half a dozen preseason games. Howden came out of the gate hot last year and then fell hard and is now considered a long shot to be an NHLer by many. The 2C role was Chtyil's to lose and now suddenly we're back to discussing whether or not he's a center at all as he heads to Hartford.

There are going to be a lot more ups and downs along the way and, spoiler alert, there will be a lot more downs than ups.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The center situation is pretty awful at the moment in general, but I feel that Andersson and Howden both bring that bottom 6 versatility to the table. Strome and Howden are going to get whipped by the fanbase all season, and it wont be their fault.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Well said. The ebb and flow of prospect development is too vast to view through the lens of just preseason or just one year. Andersson has gone from long-shot to make an impact this fall to definitely deserving of the 2C role all on the back of fewer than half a dozen preseason games. Howden came out of the gate hot last year and then fell hard and is now considered a long shot to be an NHLer by many. The 2C role was Chtyil's to lose and now suddenly we're back to discussing whether or not he's a center at all as he heads to Hartford.

There are going to be a lot more ups and downs along the way and, spoiler alert, there will be a lot more downs than ups.

Well said. I think the Rangers really want to develop Chytil as a center, or else they probably could've found a top 9 spot for him on the wing. Two things are for certain - 1. the Rangers talent level on the wings and defense grew exponentially this summer 2. As usual with the Rangers, it seems, its going to be a bumpy ride down the middle for the foreseeable future.

 

[Trxjw]

Not going after you Trxjw, just jumping off your post as a counter point to this line of thinking shared by a few as I read the threads to this point.


I see it as Andersson is "our" guy and Howden is "some guy" we picked up. But also, Andersson is noticeable, always. Howden you notice when he actually does something. Howden doesn't make bad plays, but he doesn't exactly create either. Not saying Lias is a magician, but the two play a different game. As Tort's would put it, Howden plays a "safe game" and in the NHL "Safe is Death". You have to take chances and be better at it than the competition.

For example, and I'm sure someone will pick this apart with semantics about the caliber of players I've chosen instead of the abstract similarities. We had Verbeek and Robitaille in 95/96. For the most part, they did what they were paid to do. Put up star points. But Beeker was a catalyst in all situations and Lucky Luc was passive until a scoring opportunity presented itself.

Who left the team eventually and left fans with a better image? Verbeek by a long shot.

I think the same could be said for Andersson up to this point. (Again, not directly comparing Lias to Beeker)

Nothing bad about Howden, just those two are pushing for pretty much the same position and the other has to be happy at 3c, or is possibly a trade booster when we ship out Kreider. Our pool is too deep and we obviously can't keep all the kids, we can't waste them, and we can't ice a team of them.

I imagine this place will be bumping with angry posts about kids being shipped out and "what ifs" the next handful of seasons. It's not a bad situation to be in for an organization that traded away so many consecutive 1st's not too long ago.

Very good post and I don't feel attacked by it whatsoever. Appreciate the discussion!

I fully agree that Andersson is more noticeable than Howden when they're both playing at their best. However, I'd argue that's due in large part to the types of players they are. Howden, when he's at his best, isn't a guy you notice very much. He makes the simple play and does the things that allow his line mates to focus on their strengths. That's always been his game and is one of the reasons I was keen on getting him in the McDonagh trade. I see him as a strong complimentary forward who does a lot of things very well but isn't elite at anything.

Andersson, on the other hand, I have higher expectations for in terms of visibility. He mixes things up. He has a knack for being the guy that the puck finds in open ice when you didn't think there was any open ice to be had. I expect to notice him more when he's on the ice.

Based on pedigree, development path, and overall talent I expect more from Andersson than I do from Howden. I see Howdy as a very good 3C who can be a 2nd liner in a pinch. I want more than that from Andersson. So if you look at them and say, well, they're competing for the same spot, I can't help but view that as Andersson fighting just below his weight class.

I will agree that I think the "home grown" mentality plays in as well for a variety of reasons. However, I think we can all agree that we want them both to do well.

 

[Trxjw]

If you're referring to me, I would say that I definitely have been one of the most vocal advocates of giving Lias time before making sweeping evaluations. I've also never suggested Howden should be treated differently.

Not referring to anyone in particular.

 

[GlasgowNewYorkRanger]

Isn't a 'whipping boy' someone blamed for others' faults? I'm not sure I've seen that take on Howden anywhere. Plenty of people, myself included, thought he was not good last year. Plenty of people felt he was not good in the pre-season. Is it a hot take to say that the 21 year old isn't NHL ready even though he played a full season? If anything, most of the harshest takes re: Howden seem to be indictments of the coaching staff or management--exactly opposite of making him a whipping boy.

I'm sure there are some over the top criticisms, however, we can all have genuine concerns and critical opinions without resorting to randomly going along the 'whipping boy' route. There is some middle ground. Howden's leash last year was ridiculously long after a good start which descended into farce given Quinn's continued usage.

He's a young player with room to improve for sure, however, I don't think a degree of criticism is unwarranted. Nor does it always mean everyone thinks he is a scrub.

 

[Edge]

Not going after you Trxjw, just jumping off your post as a counter point to this line of thinking shared by a few as I read the threads to this point.


I see it as Andersson is "our" guy and Howden is "some guy" we picked up. But also, Andersson is noticeable, always. Howden you notice when he actually does something. Howden doesn't make bad plays, but he doesn't exactly create either. Not saying Lias is a magician, but the two play a different game. As Tort's would put it, Howden plays a "safe game" and in the NHL "Safe is Death". You have to take chances and be better at it than the competition.

I think this is interesting and I agree with it, with a few additions.

Andersson, for all the debate about being a 7th overall pick, was still a high pick nonetheless. There's a skill set there and a higher expectation for him, as their should be. Andersson's upside is higher than Howden's. He's a more dynamic player, with a different mindset. Not necessarily top line, first line center level, but a great combination if it all pans out.

Howden was a pick later in the first, who is a nice player who has a shot to be a very nice player. But he is not a prospect on Andersson's level. To your point about him being "some guy" we picked up, I also think that plays a role in how he's judged. I suspect, though I can't necessarily prove it, that he sometimes suffers from resentment or disappointment associated with the McD. While there's a broad level of acceptance about that trade, feelings of disappointment do surface from time to time. I sometimes wonder if that, even subconsciously, has at least some influence.

While these kids are all competing against each other to an extent, in some ways they aren't. Andersson and Howden are fairly different players in many ways, and Chytil is even more different. But inevitably, because they are all close in age, and all centers, we often compare them to one another. The downside of that is that those comparisons are not necessarily always healthy or productive.

With regards to all these centers, lost in all of this is that they're young players breaking in on a bad team. We can't mask them. We have to live with all theirs ups and downs, and we have to live with them at the same time.

I think we also need to not get too high or too low on these kids. When Howden is firing on cylinders, we don't have to compare him to Derek Stepan. When Andersson is firing on all cylinders, we don't have to expect that he'll be a centering the second line by President's Day. Likewise, when they struggle, we don't have to trade them immediately.

 

[ohbaby]

Yeah, if Howden is outstanding defensively and a solid scorer at even strength, that's awesome.

Not exactly getting my hopes up for that just yet.

I got big blowback about Lias not taking Howden's spot. And I was right. Good for Lias in making the team. Hope he continues to work hard. I see both of them in the same mold. Both working hard with what they have. I don't see either having real scoring skills. I see them both as grinders. And every team needs their fill of hard working types. We have enough talented wingers, these guys will complement them.