Confirmed with Link: Brady Tkachuk - The decider: signs 3 year ELC

[danielpalfredsson]

Source?

It believe it was a TSN 1200 interview.

You can either choose to believe that I am being dishonest, which is fine. Or you can go through TSN 1200's archive to find Dorion's recent interviews. Either is fine with me.

Do you have anything to say about my responses, or were they too stupid for you again?

 

[swiftwin]

It believe it was a TSN 1200 interview.

You can either choose to believe that I am being dishonest, which is fine. Or you can go through TSN 1200's archive to find Dorion's recent interviews. Either is fine with me.

Do you have anything to say about my responses, or were they too stupid for you again?

I don't believe you are dishonest. I just believe you mis-heard him or mis-interpreted him.

 

[HSF]

When did I say that in my post? I never said that at all.

My post was validating the idea that our team felt so strongly about taking Tkachuk because of his high level character and it being a very unique asset that we badly need long term given our situation.

Me saying that is not me saying we took a player lacking in skill because of his character. I have never said that about Tkachuk.

We clearly passed on the opportunity to get more skilled players because of his character, our GM himself has admitted that. I think that at least viewing the 2018 draft, that was the right move, because the difference between Zadina and Tkachuk is not great enough to pass on what Tkachuk (supposedly) brings off the ice.

The 2019 draft has been characterized as having a very deep top end. I don't buy that when it is all said and done, Hughes will end up as the only player we wouldn't take Tkachuk over.

That has nothing to do with me saying Brady brings only character to the table. I would never make such a ridiculous claim.

I think people just have a hard time quantifying intangibles. The whole package of Brady is something only a handful of NHLers have which is what I believe was hard to pass up on. 'Skill' is such a broad term. Brady driving the net and being relentless on the puck is a skill. Its not pure skill like Zadina sniping but its a skill. So it really depends on what you consider certain intangibles to be.

 

[BondraTime]

At the time of the draft that may have been true. How these guys play or have started the season so far who knows.

If you truly believe Brady will be a top line player there are maybe 2 players in the draft next year that have higher potential and even then things are fluid till closer to the draft

So there are 2 guys who are top line/pairing in next years draft?

No, that's not even close to true. Tkachuk is a great player, he will be very valuable for us. Very valuable. The fact thathe's now an Ottawa Senator doesn't men we get to downgrade this years draft because it was him or the 2019 pick.

This years top end is special, not sure why we need to pretend that it isn't. We have Tkachuk.

 

[HSF]

So there are 2 guys who are top line/pairing in next years draft?

No, that's not even close to true. Tkachuk is a great player, he will be very valuable for us. Very valuable. The fact that
he's now an Ottawa Senator doesn't men we get to downgrade this years draft because it was him or the 2019 pick.

This years top end is special, not sure why we need to pretend that it isn't.

No. there are two players who imo have franchise ability who are Hughes and Kakko (so far atleast) .I clearly said 'higher potential'

There are others players who have 1st line potential but so does Brady so I put them at the same level as Brady and at that point you aren't passing on Brady.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I think people just have a hard time quantifying intangibles. The whole package of Brady is something only a handful of NHLers have which is what I believe was hard to pass up on. 'Skill' is such a broad term. Brady driving the net and being relentless on the puck is a skill. Its not pure skill like Zadina sniping but its a skill. So it really depends on what you consider certain intangibles to be.

Going back to my original post, I'm speaking factually, though. I am analyzing what I think our team's thought process was based on admissions that have come out of the mouth of our general manager. That doesn't invalidate what you are saying, but your interpretation of how to define skill isn't relevant to what Dorion and co's thought process was at the draft.

It is a 100 percent fact (unless Dorion is lying), that our team's thought process was to take the less skilled player due to his immense intangibles.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I don't believe you are dishonest. I just believe you mis-heard him or mis-interpreted him.

That's not the case, but that's fine if you choose to think that. You're more than welcome to find the interview for yourself if you want clarification, but I am not all that motivated to dig it up for you.

 

[swiftwin]

Brady is going to be a top 15 scorer at some point in his career.

There I said it.

I haven't felt this strongly about a young player since I saw Karlsson's first pre-season with us back in 2009. I have to be honest, I was a little bit skeptical coming into pre-season, but he's blown me away. His vision is much much better than I thought it would be. He's the real deal. This whole "intangibles" and character stuff is just the cherry on top.

 

[HSF]

Going back to my original post, I'm speaking factually, though. I am analyzing what I think our team's thought process was based on admissions that have come out of the mouth of our general manager. That doesn't invalidate what you are saying, but your interpretation of how to define skill isn't relevant to what Dorion and co's thought process was at the draft.

It is a 100 percent fact (unless Dorion is lying), that our team's thought process was to take the less skilled player due to his immense intangibles.

That's what I'm saying though. Zadina has more pure skill than Tkachuk. But the whole package makes Brady a better player who will have more of an impact.

 

[BondraTime]

No. there are two players who imo have franchise ability who are Hughes and Kakko (so far atleast) .I clearly said 'higher potential'

There are others players who have 1st line potential but so does Brady so I put them at the same level as Brady and at that point you aren't passing on Brady.

I am, for sure, and I for sure see higher potential. Give me Cozens or Dach over Brady 10/10 times, and then there are quite a few others who would be in that Tkachuk tier, give or take.

Taking Tkachuk was pretty much needed. Team was garbage and couldn't give the pick away, Tkachuk is a great player, the Sens have never had a power winger like him, and he has a huge last name to sell to fans to try and help with tickets. I completely understand not giving the pick up; don't agree (personally obviously) but it's done now.

 

[HSF]

I am, for sure, and I for sure see higher potential. Give me Cozens or Dach over Brady 10/10 times, and then there are quite a few others who would be in that Tkachuk tier, give or take.

Taking Tkachuk was pretty much needed. Team was garbage and couldn't give the pick away, Tkachuk is a great player, the Sens have never had a power winger like him, and he has a huge last name to sell to fans to try and help with tickets. I completely understand not giving the pick up; don't agree (personally obviously) but it's done now.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

If the sens don't get a top pick this year it won't matter anyways

 

[swiftwin]

It believe it was a TSN 1200 interview.

You can either choose to believe that I am being dishonest, which is fine. Or you can go through TSN 1200's archive to find Dorion's recent interviews. Either is fine with me.

Do you have anything to say about my responses, or were they too stupid for you again?

I have better things to do with my time that to argue with someone who isn't going to change their opinion. I made my thoughts quite clear. If you disagree, so be it.

 

[Samsquanch]

If the sens don't get a top pick this year it won't matter anyways

If I had to bet, this will be the case. I can see a 8th or 9th (last) place finish, and we're all going to breathe a collective sigh of relief knowing that we definitely made the right call on Tkachuk.

The players and coaches are all collectively going to be working their ASSES off this year. No feeling sorry for themselves or getting outworked by less talented teams, like what happened to them routinely last year.

And I think that with it being Andy's "on" year, he's going to win us more than a few games that we dont deserve being in.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I have better things to do with my time that to argue with someone who isn't going to change their opinion. I made my thoughts quite clear. If you disagree, so be it.

Yes. You are correct. I am not going to change my opinion that our management group passed on a player or players they perceived to be higher skilled based on valuing Tkachuk's intangibles. Especially since that opinion is based on words that came out of the mouth of the person in charge of our management group, Pierre Dorion.

So you call my post stupid, without explaining why. When prompted to explain why, your explanations are things that were never said in my post, now you pull the "oh I'm on a web forum but I don't have time to argue" gimmick. Good stuff.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That's who I am talking about.

The reference to Svechnikov was purely because as of now, there are players in 2019 projected to be as valuable as Svechnikov not named Hughes. So it's surprising to me we'd take Tkachuk over them, and does that mean if we had #2 this year, we take Tkachuk over Svechnikov? That I'd be surprised if that was the case. That's what I was getting to.

In NHL drafts, there's usually a major dropoff from 1 to 2, then 2 to 3. Unless a lot changes by the time the draft roles around, the point is I find it surprising that he's the only player we would not take Brady over.

Just like this year, where there were more skilled players on the board at 4 that we passed on (according to Dorion at least), I think it's entirely plausible that for the same reason we passed on those more skilled players at 4, the team projected onward to where they'll likely be picking in 2019 "4-8", and came to the same conclusion they did about whoever the more skilled player(s) than Tkachuk were in 2018. That Tkachuk's intangibles are well worth passing on the extra skill, so that's why they kept the pick.

That is far from me saying Tkachuk is not skilled. I'm a bit baffled that people would pull something I never said out of my post.

I find it hard to believe that Hughes is the only player they take over Tkachuk next year. That's all I'm saying.

I see what you mean now, though BT has all the tools to be the best player from THIS draft so I guess we'll see how it pans out.

Scouts have to make calls, and 2019 is a draft year away. Many of those top ranked guys will fall off, and several outsider will rise as happens every year.

The bird in the hand is always worth more, especially when that bird is made of Gold, and could have a diamond inside.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Yes. You are correct. I am not going to change my opinion that our management group passed on a player or players they perceived to be higher skilled based on valuing Tkachuk's intangibles. Especially since that opinion is based on words that came out of the mouth of the person in charge of our management group, Pierre Dorion.

So you call my post stupid, without explaining why. When prompted to explain why, your explanations are things that were never said in my post, now you pull the "oh I'm on a web forum but I don't have time to argue" gimmick. Good stuff.

Not really, PD and Mann were vary clear that BT was different than some other players, but no less skilled or valuable. No one is going to argue that Zadina has a more skilled shot than BT, but that doesn't mean that he projects to be a better player, or even that he will score more. 'Skill' is not an attribute, there are several hockey related attributes that are encompassed by the word 'skill'.

You're hanging off the 'skill' thing because it suits you, but you should consider that BT has higher skills than a player like Zadina as well. You make it seem like PD & Mann chose BT over the much more skilled Zadina because of intangibles, when the reality is that the intangibles were difference makers between two players that had very different skillsets but who were both valued around the same level.

 

[Samsquanch]

I think you guys are looking way too much into Dorion's comments about passing on skill for Tkatchuk..

They obviously took the guy who they felt will be the best player. Plain and simple. Its what you do with a top 5 pick.

Who's more skilled, Wayne Simmonds or Drouin? Giroux or Scheifele?

I know who I'll take in both cases quite easily, even with puck skills being considered..

 

[Ice-Tray]

That's what I'm saying though. Zadina has more pure skill than Tkachuk. But the whole package makes Brady a better player who will have more of an impact.

Not really though, he's not a better skater, they are different, and not a better playmaker either. He has a better shot (whether he can use it effectively in the NHL we shall see) but that's about it in terms of notably better single skills.

 

[swiftwin]

you call my post stupid, without explaining why. When prompted to explain why, your explanations are things that were never said in my post, now you pull the "oh I'm on a web forum but I don't have time to argue" gimmick. Good stuff.

Do you see the irony here?

You say I called you (or your post) stupid, then complain that I'm putting words in your mouth?

Where did I use the word stupid?

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Do you see the irony here?

You say I called you (or your post) stupid, then complain that I'm putting words in your mouth?

Where did I use the word stupid?

Bad take is a derogatory term meant to mean essentially that. I'm not sure how you intended someone to interpret "This is such a bad take, I don't even know where to start.", without any actual constructive points or attempt to have a discussion.

You called it a bad take. I was wrong to say you called is stupid since you never did use that word, but that is how it came off to me.

Is it productive to insult someone's post while not taking the time to engage any of the discussion points they brought up, and then when prompted to do that, you bring up central points that were never even made by me?

Then when I reply to your post, further explaining my points, you pull the fake "I don't have time for this!" message board gimmick. It's silly.

 

[swiftwin]

Not really, PD and Mann were vary clear that BT was different than some other players, but no less skilled or valuable. No one is going to argue that Zadina has a more skilled shot than BT, but that doesn't mean that he projects to be a better player, or even that he will score more. 'Skill' is not an attribute, there are several hockey related attributes that are encompassed by the word 'skill'.

You're hanging off the 'skill' thing because it suits you, but you should consider that BT has higher skills than a player like Zadina as well. You make it seem like PD & Mann chose BT over the much more skilled Zadina because of intangibles, when the reality is that the intangibles were difference makers between two players that had very different skillsets but who were both valued around the same level.

Spot on. People here seem to have a diffent interpretations of what 'skill' means.

I'd say that Brady has a very unique skillset. Not just because of his "character", but because of his technical abilities on the ice. His ability to drive the net and make plays happen down low and in tight around the net are outstanding. This is absolutely a 'skill'. yet some people around here will try to say this is character/intangibles in a derogatory way. Now is character/intangibles a driving factor behind this unique skillset? Absolutely. But some people seem to struggle wraping their head around this. It's not a simple skill vs character black and white comparison.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Not really, PD and Mann were vary clear that BT was different than some other players, but no less skilled or valuable. No one is going to argue that Zadina has a more skilled shot than BT, but that doesn't mean that he projects to be a better player, or even that he will score more. 'Skill' is not an attribute, there are several hockey related attributes that are encompassed by the word 'skill'.

You're hanging off the 'skill' thing because it suits you, but you should consider that BT has higher skills than a player like Zadina as well. You make it seem like PD & Mann chose BT over the much more skilled Zadina because of intangibles, when the reality is that the intangibles were difference makers between two players that had very different skillsets but who were both valued around the same level.

I don't make it seem like this, words came out of Dorion's mouth saying that.

He didn't specifically name Zadina, but he said as much as that, that there maybe was a more "skilled" player, but they took Brady because of the total package intangibles. It's all out there, it's on TSN 1200's website, it's most likely referenced in articles.

I don't get how I am hanging off a skill thing because it suits me. Could you elaborate on that? All I am doing is using something our general manager said, that came out of his mouth, words, sentences, to back up my analysis of the report that they'd take Tkachuk over everybody but Hughes next season.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I don't make it seem like this, words came out of Dorion's mouth saying that.

He didn't specifically name Zadina, but he said as much as that, that there maybe was a more "skilled" player, but they took Brady because of the total package intangibles. It's all out there, it's on TSN 1200's website, it's most likely referenced in articles.

I don't get how I am hanging off a skill thing because it suits me. Could you elaborate on that? All I am doing is using something our general manager said, that came out of his mouth, words, sentences, to back up my analysis of the report that they'd take Tkachuk over everybody but Hughes next season.

I think the point is that you're misquoting/misunderstanding the statement. You're also using a single interview where PD can often be found stumbling a bit in explanations. Both He and Mann have both very clearly explained that they viewed BT as the best player available, a unique player, and unquestionably the guy they wanted.

I also remember an interview with both where PD was glowing and referencing some skilled players still available, and Mann fleshing it out right after by explaining that they also think BT is highly skilled.

If you take a look at EVERYTHING that the head scout and GM have said, instead of taking one segment of one interview and holding that as the entire meaning, you'd see what I mean.

PD didn't say that he left more skilled guys on the board because BT had intangibles.

 

[BatherSeason]

Going back to my original post, I'm speaking factually, though. I am analyzing what I think our team's thought process was based on admissions that have come out of the mouth of our general manager. That doesn't invalidate what you are saying, but your interpretation of how to define skill isn't relevant to what Dorion and co's thought process was at the draft.

It is a 100 percent fact (unless Dorion is lying), that our team's thought process was to take the less skilled player due to his immense intangibles.

I believe that in the same interview, and I am paraphrasing, Dorion also stated that they are done drafting skilled players and will focus on character and intangibles going forward as that is what it takes to win in this league. I will look for the exact quote.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I think the point is that you're misquoting/misunderstanding the statement. You're also using a single interview where PD can often be found stumbling a bit in explanations. Both He and Mann have both very clearly explained that they viewed BT as the best player available, a unique player, and unquestionably the guy they wanted.

I also remember an interview with both where PD was glowing and referencing some skilled players still available, and Mann fleshing it out right after by explaining that they also think BT is highly skilled.

If you take a look at EVERYTHING that the head scout and GM have said, instead of taking one segment of one interview and holding that as the entire meaning, you'd see what I mean.

PD didn't say that he left more skilled guys on the board because BT had intangibles.

One interview...(TSN 1200 Sept 13th)

Ian Mendes: Why is Pierre Dorion so excited about Brady Tkachuk?

Pierre Dorion: We're excited about BT because he brings the whole package. Was there possibly a player at pick number 4 who could have more talent, more skill....maybe. But what we're trying to achieve with the Ottawa Senators with our rebuild, is that we're trying to build character, leadership, accountability. Those three things are on a scale of 1 to 10 for Brady Tkachuk, are 12. But on top of that he is a talented hockey player.


Garrioch Article....(Sept 23rd)

Ideally, the Senators want the right mix, and that involves three factors.
“Leadership, chemistry and character,” Dorion said. “Leadership is a key fundamental. Some people are born leaders, but when you have a good culture you develop leaders, and that’s what we’re trying to do.
“When it comes to character, you look at a recent draft pick like Brady Tkachuk. There might have been more skilled players around, but we felt that character and getting the whole package was important. Chemistry is important because you need the players to care for one another.

_____

So let me get this straight. Dorion is a bumbling idiot, but I should only believe what he says if it backs up what you're trying to say here, and not if it backs up what I am trying to say, despite within a minute me being able to pull up multiple quotes from different interviews backing up the narrative that they possible passed on (their words not mine) players with more skill?