Player Discussion Brady Tkachuk (LW) - Part XI

DaveMatthew

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Give me a realistic measuring stick for his performance that eclipses his current performance at $4 million per year.

Playoff production.

But regardless, I'm not sure what the criticism is here.

Tkachuk is 22 and on pace for ~30 goals, 65-70 points and 300 hits. He's having a solid year, and I expect him to continue improving.

Every GM in the league would take him and his contract on in a second if he was, hypothetically, put on the trade block.
 

RAFI BOMB

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Sure, I'll play along. At $4 million, we're getting A+ value out of him. No question. Why don't you tell me what your expectations will be for him when he's making $10.5 million? Give me a realistic measuring stick for his performance that eclipses his current performance at $4 million per year.
What were your expectations for his play this season?

You are the one concerned with his performance so let's evaluate your expectations of him.

Based on his cap hit what did you expect and how is he not living up to those expectations?
 
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BankStreetParade

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What were your expectations for his play this season?

You are the one concerned with his performance so let's evaluate your expectations of him.

Based on his cap hit what did you expect and how is he not living up to those expectations?
I already answered. For $4 million his performance and pace this year are outstanding. As I asked before, what are you expecting from him at $10.5 million in a few years? Just so we can be clear about how to assess his performance using your methodology of cap hit vs. actual salary.
 

GCK

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How convenient! I wonder if other players on this team merit the same consideration.


Well, when you sign a big money extension in a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately league you don't get the courtesy of "yeah but here's what we might expect down the road". Potential is great but at the end of this contract, we're going to lump all his stats together without the additional context of each individual season. That's how the NHL works and the only reason we're even having this discussion is because the guy is very popular and seems to be above criticism with this fanbase.





These arguments might stand on their own if Murray's contract existed in a vacuum but you don't evaluate his performance and that year's salary relative to his peers' salaries do you? Anyway, hardly surprising for two of the biggest Murray critics on this sub.
Murray had an .893 sv% last year. It’s not about being pro or anti Murray, it’s about reality. He was absurdly bad last year just like Carter Hart. This year Murray has been playing great. I’m not a critic of Murray I was a critic of his play. Try taking an objective view once in a while.
 
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GCK

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Its the biggest improvement in his game so far this year after many on here were critical of that portion of his game.

Seems the negative Nancy's have quieted for now
He was pretty useless defensively so it’s nice to see the improvement.
 

GCK

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I already answered. For $4 million his performance and pace this year are outstanding. As I asked before, what are you expecting from him at $10.5 million in a few years? Just so we can be clear about how to assess his performance using your methodology of cap hit vs. actual salary.
I’d expect about 30G 35A, lead the team to the playoffs and be a force in the playoffs.
 
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BankStreetParade

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I’d expect about 30G 35A, lead the team to the playoffs and be a force in the playoffs.
So your expectations at $10.5 million are almost exactly the same results as this year at $4 million? You're the one talking about him reaching his potential in the future. Your expectations for his potential are almost exactly what he is today??? That makes zero sense.
This is partially true. He needs to perform but expecting him to have reached his potential already is unfair.

All long term contracts coming out of ELC have “potential” baked in.
 

GCK

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So your expectations at $10.5 million are almost exactly the same results as this year at $4 million? You're the one talking about him reaching his potential in the future. Your expectations for his potential are almost exactly what he is today??? That makes zero sense.
If you think point production is the sole measure of a player then he’s pretty close to his potential. If you believe as I do that imposing one’s will on the other team and having your teammates up their game based on you leading the way then no there is a lot more to come.
 

bert

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I already answered. For $4 million his performance and pace this year are outstanding. As I asked before, what are you expecting from him at $10.5 million in a few years? Just so we can be clear about how to assess his performance using your methodology of cap hit vs. actual salary.
Thats not really how it works. This isnt a math equasion it never was with Brady or this sport in general. I think you make some good points some times but its pretty clear you would rather get into a heated debate then be reasonable.
 

BankStreetParade

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If you think point production is the sole measure of a player then he’s pretty close to his potential. If you believe as I do that imposing one’s will on the other team and having your teammates up their game based on you leading the way then no there is a lot more to come.
So he'll be worth $10.5 million then because the roster will be better? How can I argue what that kind of ironclad logic? I mean that's hilariously nonsensical. You just couldn't bring yourself to admit that the logic you were using made no sense, huh?
 

BankStreetParade

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Thats not really how it works. This isnt a math equasion it never was with Brady or this sport in general. I think you make some good points some times but its pretty clear you would rather get into a heated debate then be reasonable.
Is that right? So we can't evaluate him on his cap hit, according to the people who responded to me, and we can't evaluate him based on his salary. Please tell me how does this work exactly? How do we determine a player's value if we can't use their salary or cap hit?
 

NyQuil

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Is that right? So we can't evaluate him on his cap hit, according to the people who responded to me, and we can't evaluate him based on his salary. Please tell me how does this work exactly? How do we determine a player's value if we can't use their salary or cap hit?

You're going to be miserable if you're secretly cheering for him to suck so that you're proven right about his contract.

What's the fun in that?

The contract is done. Let's revisit at the end of the year and then at the end of next year.

Hopefully next year gives him a semblance of an entire season with top line players since he was always going to be a complementary physical presence on a top line like a Todd Bertuzzi as opposed to a Mitch Marner.

Thankfully, he can play on a top line with his hands and his commitment to crashing the net.

If we both agree that he's overpaid by $1M, how is he looking as a $7M player? Still too pricey?

I'm not so sure. I can see plenty of teams giving him that kind of cash on the open market.
 
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RAFI BOMB

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I already answered. For $4 million his performance and pace this year are outstanding. As I asked before, what are you expecting from him at $10.5 million in a few years? Just so we can be clear about how to assess his performance using your methodology of cap hit vs. actual salary.
I am not sure if I can provide an answer that you would deem satisfactory. I agree with cap hit as being the appropriate measure generally speaking but I do think there are specific contexts when it may not be the best metric. I think when a team is closer to the cap ceiling then evaluating player performance based on cap hit is most appropriate. This is because cap hit is a real constraint in that situation; there is a finite amount of cap space and therefore each player's performance is measured relative to how well that cap space is utilized and could be utilized.

Alternatively in situations where a team is near the cap floor each player's cap hit is fairly inconsequential in that given season as there isn't really a cap constraint to contend with. If those cap floor teams have an internal budget then actual salary could be scrutinized as it represents an actual constraint; each dollar spent creates an opportunity cost of how that same capital could have been spent differently.

I also think a player's age is important when evaluating a contract. In a max length, or near max length contract a young player should show progression. In such a circumstance a team pays for some projected potential with hopes that it is attained. The organization may also be comfortable with some variance in performance as they may feel they underpay the player in some seasons and overpay them in others but that the compensation balances itself out.

I also don't think it makes sense to evaluate a contract in isolation. The quality of the contract is not just determined by player performance relative to cap hit or salary, it is also measured relative to what the market determines is an appropriate cap hit and salary for players of a similar performance and having similar attributes.

But to your exact point Tkachuk makes $10.5m in 2023-24, 2024-25 and 2025-26. He will turn 24 at the start of that compensation. What I am expecting during that time frame is something similar to Jamie Benn and Mark Stone in terms of performance. What that means is close to a point per game or slightly over it while also providing non point related contributions (defensive play, physicality, etc) at a very high level. During that same age range Benn put up (2013-14: 81 GP 34 G 45 A 79 PTS, 2014-15: 82 GP 35 G 52 A 87 PTS, 2015-16: 82 GP 41 G 48 A 49 PTS) and Stone put up (2016-17: 71 GP 21 G 32 A 54 PTS, 2017-18: 58 GP 20 G 42 A 62 PTS, 2018-19: 77 GP 33 G 40 A 73 PTS).

Both Benn and Stone's contracts after those performances had a higher cap hit and higher peak salary than Tkachuk's. Benn received a $9.5M cap hit with $13M in salary for the first three seasons of his contract. Stone also has a $9.5M cap hit with two seasons of his current contract reaching $12M in actual salary and another two reaching $11M. Both have also received massive signing bonuses as part of their contracts with Tkachuk's contract doesn't have.

Those two may have had to prove more offensively before receiving big paydays but I think they are decent comparable for Tkachuk. If Tkachuk puts up similar numbers to Benn during the same age range while also bringing peak physicality, improved defensive play and outstanding leadership, I would be ecstatic.
 
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RAFI BOMB

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He might have had another dozen goals if not for pandemic shortened seasons, add another dozen to finish off this season and he'd be flirting with the franchise record.
You could also add in the fact that he still hasn't played a full season with an established 1st line player(s) or even bonafide top six players for that matter.
  • In his rookie season (2018-19) Tkachuk got to play at least a large chunk of the season with a legit 1st liner in Stone. Stone played 59 games with the Sens before getting traded away.
  • In 2019-20 I don't remember who his linemates were on a regular basis but it was likely some combination of JG Pageau, Anthony Duclair, Colin White, Chris Tierney and possibly Connor Brown. None of which were proven top six forwards at the time.
  • In 2020-21 he got to play with Josh Norris and Drake Batherson who were rookies. He did play some of the season with Dadanov who was an established top six forward but was really struggling last season.
  • This season would have been his first full season with legit 1st line players in Norris and Batherson but unfortunately both have gotten injured
Tkachuk's point production and goals scored would likely be significantly higher if he had spent the majority of that time with established 1st liner and top six players.
 

Micklebot

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You could also add in the fact that he still hasn't played a full season with an established 1st line player(s) or even bonafide top six players for that matter.
  • In his rookie season (2018-19) Tkachuk got to play at least a large chunk of the season with a legit 1st liner in Stone. Stone played 59 games with the Sens before getting traded away.
  • In 2019-20 I don't remember who his linemates were on a regular basis but it was likely some combination of JG Pageau, Anthony Duclair, Colin White, Chris Tierney and possibly Connor Brown. None of which were proven top six forwards at the time.
  • In 2020-21 he got to play with Josh Norris and Drake Batherson who were rookies. He did play some of the season with Dadanov who was an established top six forward but was really struggling last season.
  • This season would have been his first full season with legit 1st line players in Norris and Batherson but unfortunately both have gotten injured
Tkachuk's point production and goals scored would likely be significantly higher if he had spent the majority of that time with established 1st liner and top six players.
I guess, but that type of thing applies to most players at least to some degree, shortened seasons is unique to him and Yashin on that list and completely outside their control

As an aside, for Hossa they excluded his first season (7 games), and Spezza had a complete lockout one year which gave him some additional development, makes Brady a touch more impressive imo.
 
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Agent Zuuuub

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I know I'll be labeled as a hater but oof his play was rough yesterday and honestly for a long while now. I actually thought he was playing better during his cold streak vs the recent streak where he has been scoring and putting up points. Weird.

Yesterday he must have completed one clean pass in the first half of the game, lost interest to track in the second half but not sure it was much better. If he is injured that would make sense.

But it is encouraging that he is putting up points even while slumping. That is a mark of a good player.

If we are to evaluate Brady as a 4mill player right now, it's pretty good. And I guess evaluating his play like that makes some sense. But it also hard when he is the captain and has the highest cap hit on the team. Those roles justify high expectations like they did for Stone, Karlsson, Alfredsson etc. when he is making 10m he will need to be a lot better than this.
 

NyQuil

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If we are to evaluate Brady as a 4mill player right now, it's pretty good. And I guess evaluating his play like that makes some sense. But it also hard when he is the captain and has the highest cap hit on the team. Those roles justify high expectations like they did for Stone, Karlsson, Alfredsson etc. when he is making 10m he will need to be a lot better than this.

If we all agree that he's slightly overpaid contract wise, how does that change the calculus?

At what cap number is he not overpaid in your mind, given his age and the desire for a long-term contract?

What did you expect? 5? 6? 6.5? 7? 7.5? I'm curious.
 
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guyzeur

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I know I'll be labeled as a hater but oof his play was rough yesterday and honestly for a long while now. I actually thought he was playing better during his cold streak vs the recent streak where he has been scoring and putting up points. Weird.

Yesterday he must have completed one clean pass in the first half of the game, lost interest to track in the second half but not sure it was much better. If he is injured that would make sense.

But it is encouraging that he is putting up points even while slumping. That is a mark of a good player.

If we are to evaluate Brady as a 4mill player right now, it's pretty good. And I guess evaluating his play like that makes some sense. But it also hard when he is the captain and has the highest cap hit on the team. Those roles justify high expectations like they did for Stone, Karlsson, Alfredsson etc. when he is making 10m he will need to be a lot better than this.
So you're ok if he's underpaid? Think about that for a minute or two.
 

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