Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Lemontree]

Again, I look at more than a single game, sorry if you have no ability to think past that.

I consider the depth to be the bottom 6, not players like Knies/Pacioretty who are riding shotgun with the best players.

It doesn't matter what line he's playing on, a 36 year old winger who signed a 1 year deal for $900k is the definition of a depth signing.

 

[DarkKnight]

It doesn't matter what line he's playing on, a 36 year old winger who signed a 1 year deal for $900k is the definition of a depth signing.

He's no Denis Malgin, that's for sure.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

View attachment 1032308

Wonder how many of those blocks that man has alone.

 

[DarkKnight]

View attachment 1032308

If only he scored more lol.

 

[Jmo89]

Those two guys are desperately waiting for this team to fail so they can praise their idol for years to come.

They're in total shambles because Treliving has achieved more than Dubas did in 2 years while Berube has achieved more in 1 than Keefe.

Hopefully the team keeps the train rolling and the voices in this thread who want to argue everything except winning continue to be drowned out in irrelevance.

 

[DarkKnight]

Th

They're in total shambles because Treliving has achieved more than Dubas did in 2 years while Berube has achieved more in 1 than Keefe.

Hopefully the team keeps the train rolling and the voices in this thread who want to argue everything except winning continue to be drowned out in irrelevance.

Your last sentence, that's already happened. It's just clutter at this point, the evidence is in, and no matter what is said we sit here today in uncharted waters for this era. In one way sad, but also irrefutable.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

If only he scored more lol.

Unironically the Leafs being more sturdy and stoic defensively is leading to more offensive opportunities.

What's different about the Maple Leafs in this year's playoffs

With a 2-0 lead on the Florida Panthers in Round 2, a lot is going just right for the Leafs in all the ways they needed. Justin Bourne writes how this team is different not just from previous seasons, but also from this regular season.

www.sportsnet.ca

Here’s the reality: the earlier point I made about how they’ve settled in on defence has given them the security to make the right plays on offence, including jumping up in the rush when that opportunity arises. When people say good teams are built from the net out, that’s what this is. You defend well, you trust your team defence, you can activate more, and suddenly you create more offence, too.

Through 7 games, which was the usual limit of playoff games played under Dubas, this defence scored 15 points, 7 of them goals. If we include last night it's 19 points through 8 games but for sake of comparison we'll cap it at 7.

Here's how the Leafs D-Corps produced offensively when it had more "diverse" skillsets and more supposed puckmovers.

2019 - 7 Games: 13 points, 2 goals
2020 - 5 Games: 3 points, 2 goals (no amount of pro-rating makes this look good)
2021 - 7 Games: 11 points, 5 goals
2022 - 7 Games: 15 points, 5 goals
2023 - through 7 games: 14 points, 3 goals
*Treliving arrives
2024 - 7 Games: 9 points, 1 goal
2025 - through 7 Gams: 15 points, 7 goals

It took Tree two seasons to build a defence not only capable of playing physical, grinding, defensively capable hockey that works in the postseason, but to also tie the high offensive mark through 7 games that took Dubas 4 seasons to accomplish, with more goals to boot.

Now if we count all of the high point of the Dubas/Keefe Leafs in 2023, that defence ended up with 22 points, 5 being goals, in 11 games. Already we've gotten more goals from our defence in three fewer games, and we're three points away from tying those 22 points. And unlike that year Rielly isn't even hard carrying that defence offensively. He's still playing great, but he accounted for more than half of those 22 points (12). This postseason the offense from the defence is distributed more evenly.

 

[colchar]

View attachment 1032308

But what system do they play???

 

[yubbers]

They're in total shambles because Treliving has achieved more than Dubas did in 2 years while Berube has achieved more in 1 than Keefe.

Hopefully the team keeps the train rolling and the voices in this thread who want to argue everything except winning continue to be drowned out in irrelevance.

Dubas homers are a special kinda slow.

 

[colchar]

Considering the cap space that he had to work with, it really is remarkable how well Tre has done remaking this team in such a short time frame.

 

[Dayjobdave]

He's no Denis Malgin, that's for sure.

But wouldn’t Malgin be helping our possession numbers?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If only he scored more lol.

I mean it's not why he's there but he does have 3 points in 8 games so he's kind of doing that too.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What makes you think I won't budge off of an opinion?

Because every time your opinion has been proven wrong in our discussions, you've deferred to feelings and opinions that agree with you to continue with the same opinion. What else am I supposed to think? If somebody forms opinions off of feelings, and they will ignore fact if they can find somebody that agrees with them, that's a recipe for a misinformation bubble that can never be pierced. In fact, we've discussed pretty much all of the below points before, and we're back discussing them all again... it honestly feels like you just won't accept the answer that doesn't mesh with your opinion.

Look. I think it's good that you try to look at the present in the brightest light possible. Use that to be positive and optimistic. But when people misrepresent that light to cast shade on a past they choose not to understand, and attack anyone who doesn't join in, that's where it starts to get toxic and obsessive. Don't turn into one of them.

We have never faced a WC / green team with suspect goaltending in R1. That's kind of the point, no?

Yeah that is the point. So when we're comparing outcomes, that's some pretty big context that's being left out, no? We have never been unsuccessful in the playoffs facing goaltending this bad. Achieving something that is easier is great, but it doesn't automatically make a team better than one that didn't achieve something that was harder.

This team did something no previous team of this era had done before -- won an Atlantic division title. That's a different result, no? 2021? The shortened season where we played only Canadian teams? That's not a direct comparison and you should know that which makes you using it as a comparison disingenuine. 103 points? We set a goal to win the division and we achieved that goal. There is no asterisk for a year with greater parity.

Which leads us into this example. Yes, this team did something that it hasn't done before - win the Atlantic division. But that's for two main reasons:

1. When we won our division a few years ago, it wasn't the Atlantic division. (Though yes, it happened, and trying to ignore it because it wasn't the Atlantic is what is disingenuous)
2. Because the point total needed to win the Atlantic this year was at an all-time low.
Since it was created in its current form, points needed to win:
2013/14: 118 points
2014/15: 111 points
2015/16: 104 points
2016/17: 104 points
2017/18: 114 points
2018/19: 129 points
2019/20: 117 points
2021/22: 123 points
2022/23: 136 points
2023/24: 111 points
2024/25: 103 points

That's why we won the division; not because this is the best version of our team. Acknowledging the relative difficulty of something isn't putting an asterisk on it. If anything, this is more about how insanely strong our division has been throughout pretty much our entire competitive phase until now.

I am going to guess we have never previously had those strong goaltending numbers down the stretch based on your question. Yes, we got great goaltending from a goalie and goalie tandem that was a strength all season. I am not sure how this is not evidence that we built a different team this year. No Samsonov , no Mrazek, no Campbell. You seem to be using the goaltending tandem that Treliving has assembled as a reason for not giving his team finishing 5-0. I don't get that.

Ok, 13-3-1...again, why are we discounting this team success because this team has very good goaltending that showed up the final quarter of the season basically.

Guess what, teams that win cups usually get very solid goaltending and have a goalie steal a game or two for them. I don't think I recall a Toronto goalie stealing a playoff game for us once in this era. I do recall a few weak goals against though.

Ok, so it sounds like we finally agree that it was goaltending, so there's progress. Now is that a bad thing? No, not necessarily. Good goaltending is very important. I have always said as such. Goalies have more impact on a game than any other player by far (which makes attempts to deny their impact on playoff outcomes even more ridiculous).

What makes people nervous is that goaltending is also inherently very variable, and the level they were performing at in that stretch was wildly unsustainable. The fact that you dismiss Campbell and Samsonov is itself proof of that variability, because both of those goalies delivered strong seasons for us, and even some strong playoff moments. Samsonov, for example, stole us our series-winning game 6 in 2023. But you remember them negatively because the good stretches were followed by a bad stretch.

And the reason for that concern has been on full display for us this playoffs. That strong goaltending that we had throughout the regular season has evaporated in the playoffs so far. We've seen a number of the weak goals that we've seen in the past, and actually worse goaltending overall than we've had before.

But also, there is a fundamental issue with your argument anyway, because a team is not well represented by its best stretch. That's not really what they are. They are all of their stretches combined, good and bad. And in our last discussion about this, I already showed you that how teams finished the season didn't even really have any correlation with winning the cup.

Speaking of facts, is your position that this team is not all that different and/or better than what we had under Dubas? Well, there are 13 guys that played more than five games for us in the 2023 playoffs that are not on this team now (14 if you include Kampf and someone not seeing the ice yet). That's 13. We have a new head coach and coaching staff. We accomplished more in the regular season and are off to our best playoff start of the era. We are now the biggest team in the league too. Is your position really that they are not that different or better?

We are different, to some extent, but we are not better. That's not the end of the world. We are still a good team with potential to win, and we have patched many of the holes that were opened up in 2023/24. But being "bigger" doesn't have anything to do with being better. This wasn't our best regular season performance. And it hasn't really been our best playoff performance. We're getting better playoff outcomes because we're facing easier situations. But some people seem to be incapable of understanding any nuance or context. They refuse to believe anything other than good thing happen in playoffs = everything associated with the team is awesome, bad thing happen in playoffs = everything associated with the team sucks. But that's not how hockey works. Hockey is not a single player game. Outcomes are not just about our team. The number of people on this site with such a black and white surface level understanding of hockey is just... baffling. Critical thinking skills have really gone downhill...

 

[Roo]

Weren’t some fans complaining about us ‘running it back’?

I guess changing your coach, system, goaltending, defense and depth forwards isn’t ’running it back’ then.

LOL

Tre has basically made near perfect moves for us. So confident in having him at the helm.

 

[Dekes For Days]

View attachment 1032308

We had the fewest goals against at 5v5 among playoff teams in 2021 too. Did we have the best D in the NHL that year?

 

[1specter]

Hilarious when certain people keep trying to prop up North division stats when 4/7 teams failed to make the playoffs the year after

 

[DarkKnight]

Hilarious when certain people keep trying to prop up North division stats when 4/7 teams failed to make the playoffs the year after

I applaud the War and Peace rebuttals nobody reads lol.

 

[Stephen]

We had the fewest goals against at 5v5 among playoff teams in 2021 too. Did we have the best D in the NHL that year?

Did the Titanic have some good design features?

Yeah, I'd say the Leafs had some good defensive attributes that year but it was incomplete project. Rielly struggled that year. Muzzin was great, he carried Holl. Brodie was excellent. Bogosian was decent and filled a fan favorite role. Sandin and Dermott were young with unknown capabilities and presented a soft underbelly in the playoffs. We needed a better Holl, Bogosian and the two young guys were not ready to compete.

But why do we talk about that team like it was some benchmark? It was a disaster in the end.

 

[LeafEgo]

Did the Titanic have some good design features?

Yeah, I'd say the Leafs had some good defensive attributes that year but it was incomplete project. Rielly struggled that year. Muzzin was great, he carried Holl. Brodie was excellent. Bogosian was decent and filled a fan favorite role. Sandin and Dermott were young with unknown capabilities and presented a soft underbelly in the playoffs. We needed a better Holl, Bogosian and the two young guys were not ready to compete.

But why do we talk about that team like it was some benchmark? It was a disaster in the end.

Brodie was a valuable defenseman at his best, but I never really bought into him as a first pairing cup contending dman, especially with Rielly.

More of a second pairing guy like Hammer.

Tanev works though.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah, I'd say the Leafs had some good defensive attributes that year but it was incomplete project. Rielly struggled that year. Muzzin was great, he carried Holl. Brodie was excellent. Bogosian was decent and filled a fan favorite role. Sandin and Dermott were young with unknown capabilities and presented a soft underbelly in the playoffs. We needed a better Holl, Bogosian and the two young guys were not ready to compete.
But why do we talk about that team like it was some benchmark? It was a disaster in the end.

That team was not a disaster. Not getting the playoff outcome you want does not make a team a disaster, especially when we never even really got to see the true potential of that team in the playoffs due to injuries.

I'm just looking for some consistency. Does having "the fewest goals against at 5v5 among playoff teams" mean you have the best D in the NHL or not? Because some people want to make that claim and then criticize past defenses that did the same thing but even better.

 

[jaric1862]

"wHy uPgRaDe tHe dEfEnCe wHeN sCoRiNg iS tHeIr iSsUe iN tHe pLaYoFfS"

 

[Bomber0104]

Th

Your last sentence, that's already happened. It's just clutter at this point, the evidence is in, and no matter what is said we sit here today in uncharted waters for this era. In one way sad, but also irrefutable.

Quite true.

And as great and hopeful a time this has now become, I can't help but slip back into the thinking of "what if we had Berube instead of Keefe even last year...a real GM hired after the Columbus and Montreal embarrassments..." etc. etc.

Those were a lot of wasted years letting total newbs learn on the job, and failing - after a lot of wasted years stubbornly resisting a draft rebuild.

Hoping these playoffs help everyone forget all that.

 

[123offtheglass]

You're treating that 190-pound listing like it’s definitive, but in reality, it’s most likely outdated or recycled information. That exact height and weight — 6'1", 190 — appears across multiple sources dating back to Byram’s junior days, and NHL media guides are notorious for carrying over templated stats unless there’s an official update, like at the combine or during contract signings.

And so, based on absolutely nothing but your desire to avoid admitting you were wrong, you decide that the NHL, Colorado Avalanche, and Colorado's AHL affiliate (not to mention a bunch of other sites and Denver newspapers) were wrong about their own player, and for some reason around the same time, all started using his pre-Draft junior weight. But he was secretly the exact same weight 3 years ago as he is now... Because you say so.

It's okay to admit you were wrong dude.

You see listings all the time that just seem outdated, recycled, maybe even just flat out wrong. I remember Cody Franson going from something like 6'5" 210 to 6'5" 238 immediately or overnight when he was moved from Leafs to either Nashville or Buffalo.

Evgeni Malkin has been listed 6'3" 195 for almost his entire career, he's suddenly listed as 6'5" 210 this year at age 38, Crosby's just been listed 5'11" 200 his entire career even though his weight had fluctuated quite a bit.

Training camp rosters often show a lot of new heights/weights for players but that doesn't necessarily translate to what they're listed as on the website.

 

[Stephen]

Brodie was a valuable defenseman at his best, but I never really bought into him as a first pairing cup contending dman, especially with Rielly.

More of a second pairing guy like Hammer.

Tanev works though.

Brodie was a breath of fresh air coming off the Barrie Ceci year but it was a poorly assembled blueline with a lot of mismatched hands.

Rielly, Dermott, Muzzin, Brodie, Sandin all LHD with Bogosian and Holl on RHD? It was just so poorly constructed with no attention to body types and roles.