Frankly that's Barca and Real hype machine. Most years the bdo winner was the guy with most trophies, particularly in Euro and WC years.
Ballon d'Or 2024-2025 race
- Thread starter Evilo
- Start date
Wee Baby Seamus
Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
American Pope... Gold Cup year... dare I say....
Pulisic for Ballon d'Or?
Pulisic for Ballon d'Or?
Jussi
Registered User
bluesfan94
Registered User
Wee Baby Seamus
Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
91% (243/267) of Popes have come from a country which has won a World Cup. Bodes well for the USA on home soil next summer.
Scandale du Jour
JordanStaal#1Fan
I do not think your stat tells the story you think it does when 217 of them are Italian
hatterson
Registered User
This is the best use of stats.
Wee Baby Seamus
Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
Remove the Italians (which I don't think we should, but fine), and you still end up with 26/50 Popes from World Cup winners.I do not think your stat tells the story you think it does when 217 of them are Italian
95%, btw (254/267), have won either the World Cup or their continental cup.
robertmac43
Forever 43!
- Mar 31, 2015
- 23,488
- 18,419
There a couple of problems with how people are looking at this award:
—Too much importance is placed on what a player’s respective club wins. That’s not to say it shouldn’t be a consideration, especially if a player played a significant part in that success, but just because a player wins something with their team doesn’t mean they’re the best player. To be fair, this seems to be a factor in the actual awarding and not just here, but it shouldn’t have as much weight.
—There also seems to too much importance placed on a player’s technical ability or overall skill. This is given out for performance, not skill. If it was down to who the most talent player was Messi would have won it 13 times (which he should have done anyway, but that’s a different story).
A LOT of irrelevance here. What do “the quality of compatriots in the same position who were stuck behind Messi/Ronaldo” have to do with right now? Furthermore, what do Neymar, Xavi and Iniesta have to do with right now? Laughable stuff. Fact is that different timeframes have different levels of players and none of prime Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi or Iniesta are in contention right now. By your logic no one should win, unless of course you’re going to defer to Messi or Ronaldo.
As for Raphinha, who are all the players who have had better seasons this season? Tell me all the players and lay out what they’ve done. Here is what Raphinha has done:
-Arguably the best player based on performance which is what the award should be about.
-Essentially assumed the role of captain during key moments.
-16 goals and 9 assists in 28 league starts
-13 goals and 8 assists in 14 CL starts, equaling the record for goal contributions.
-1 goal and 4 assists in 5 Copa matches.
-30 goals and 21 assists all season which doesn't even include the Supercopa which is now a competitive competition.
-Delivered in multiple big matches.
-Hat-trick in CL against Bayern during the group stage.
-Goal and assist in first Clasico.
-3 goals and an assist in tie against Benfica in CL Round of 16.
-1 goal and an assist in tie against Dortmund in CL QF.
-1 goal and an assist in tie against Inter in CL SF.
-2 assists in Copa Semi against Atleti.
-2 goals and an assist in Supercopa Clasico final.
-Arguably most times Man of the Match for Barca, as many as 16 times.
So who is the “MVP” of Barca? Just because Barca has multiple players making big contributions doesn’t make Raphinha any less of a candidate. It simply means that Barca have more than one candidate, which they do.
As for the Jorginho comparison, absolute nonsense.
It’s not an insane amount, but it’s nearly 30% of the total (assuming that’s just in the league) which is a lot. As for Salah’s numbers being “objectively crazy”, Raphinha’s are equally “objectively crazy” and from what I can tell he only has 2 goals from the spot. Here are those numbers:
League:
Salah: 28 goals, 18 assists, 35 matches, 3110 minutes
Raphinha: 16 goals, 9 assists, 28(4) matches, 2511 minutes
CL:
Salah: 3 goals, 4 assists, 9 matches, 810 minutes
Raphinha: 13 goals, 8 assists, 14 matches, 1225 minutes
Domestic Cup:
Salah: 2 goals, 1 assist, 3(2) matches, 312 minutes *
Raphinha: 1 goal, 4 assists, 5 matches, 423 minutes
All Competitions:
Salah: 33 goals, 23 assists, 47(2) matches, 4233 minutes
Raphinha: 30 goals, 21 assists, 47(4) matches, 4159 minutes**
* Salah’s domestic cup wasn’t the FA Cup but rather the League Cup.
** Raphinha’s numbers don’t include the Spanish Super Cup which is now a highly competitive competition. Raphinha registered 2 goals and 1 assist in 169 minutes, all of those goal contributions coming in the final against Madrid. That takes his numbers to the following:
32 goals, 22 assists, 49(4) matches, 4328 minutes
So Raphinha has 1 less goal and 1 less assist in 95 more minutes. That’s with the context of Salah scoring 9 from the spot (according to you) and Raphinha scoring only 2 from the spot from what I can find. Further context, La Liga was more competitive than the Premiership this season and the Copa del Rey is notably better than the League Cup.
Further context still, you noted that Salah benefits from being Liverpool’s focal point as they look to get him the ball in decisive positions. I would argue that while Raphinha also benefits from his team’s tactics, the difference is that he is not the focal point. In fact, there are always multiple focal points with Barca, essentially three more in the vast majority of matches.
All of that isn’t to say that Raphinha should win and/or that Salah shouldn’t win. I don’t see a conclusive winner as of right now.
Who exactly are you going to replace him with? Who in the game today would do better?
Personally, I’m all for Nico Williams, but as a teammate of Raphinha’s, not a replacement. Plenty of problems with this including Williams’ potential wage demands, enough places/minutes in the team for all three of Lamine, Raph and Williams and Raphinha’s insistence on playing.
Gotcha Javier.
—Too much importance is placed on what a player’s respective club wins. That’s not to say it shouldn’t be a consideration, especially if a player played a significant part in that success, but just because a player wins something with their team doesn’t mean they’re the best player. To be fair, this seems to be a factor in the actual awarding and not just here, but it shouldn’t have as much weight.
—There also seems to too much importance placed on a player’s technical ability or overall skill. This is given out for performance, not skill. If it was down to who the most talent player was Messi would have won it 13 times (which he should have done anyway, but that’s a different story).
A LOT of irrelevance here. What do “the quality of compatriots in the same position who were stuck behind Messi/Ronaldo” have to do with right now? Furthermore, what do Neymar, Xavi and Iniesta have to do with right now? Laughable stuff. Fact is that different timeframes have different levels of players and none of prime Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi or Iniesta are in contention right now. By your logic no one should win, unless of course you’re going to defer to Messi or Ronaldo.
As for Raphinha, who are all the players who have had better seasons this season? Tell me all the players and lay out what they’ve done. Here is what Raphinha has done:
-Arguably the best player based on performance which is what the award should be about.
-Essentially assumed the role of captain during key moments.
-16 goals and 9 assists in 28 league starts
-13 goals and 8 assists in 14 CL starts, equaling the record for goal contributions.
-1 goal and 4 assists in 5 Copa matches.
-30 goals and 21 assists all season which doesn't even include the Supercopa which is now a competitive competition.
-Delivered in multiple big matches.
-Hat-trick in CL against Bayern during the group stage.
-Goal and assist in first Clasico.
-3 goals and an assist in tie against Benfica in CL Round of 16.
-1 goal and an assist in tie against Dortmund in CL QF.
-1 goal and an assist in tie against Inter in CL SF.
-2 assists in Copa Semi against Atleti.
-2 goals and an assist in Supercopa Clasico final.
-Arguably most times Man of the Match for Barca, as many as 16 times.
So who is the “MVP” of Barca? Just because Barca has multiple players making big contributions doesn’t make Raphinha any less of a candidate. It simply means that Barca have more than one candidate, which they do.
As for the Jorginho comparison, absolute nonsense.
It’s not an insane amount, but it’s nearly 30% of the total (assuming that’s just in the league) which is a lot. As for Salah’s numbers being “objectively crazy”, Raphinha’s are equally “objectively crazy” and from what I can tell he only has 2 goals from the spot. Here are those numbers:
League:
Salah: 28 goals, 18 assists, 35 matches, 3110 minutes
Raphinha: 16 goals, 9 assists, 28(4) matches, 2511 minutes
CL:
Salah: 3 goals, 4 assists, 9 matches, 810 minutes
Raphinha: 13 goals, 8 assists, 14 matches, 1225 minutes
Domestic Cup:
Salah: 2 goals, 1 assist, 3(2) matches, 312 minutes *
Raphinha: 1 goal, 4 assists, 5 matches, 423 minutes
All Competitions:
Salah: 33 goals, 23 assists, 47(2) matches, 4233 minutes
Raphinha: 30 goals, 21 assists, 47(4) matches, 4159 minutes**
* Salah’s domestic cup wasn’t the FA Cup but rather the League Cup.
** Raphinha’s numbers don’t include the Spanish Super Cup which is now a highly competitive competition. Raphinha registered 2 goals and 1 assist in 169 minutes, all of those goal contributions coming in the final against Madrid. That takes his numbers to the following:
32 goals, 22 assists, 49(4) matches, 4328 minutes
So Raphinha has 1 less goal and 1 less assist in 95 more minutes. That’s with the context of Salah scoring 9 from the spot (according to you) and Raphinha scoring only 2 from the spot from what I can find. Further context, La Liga was more competitive than the Premiership this season and the Copa del Rey is notably better than the League Cup.
Further context still, you noted that Salah benefits from being Liverpool’s focal point as they look to get him the ball in decisive positions. I would argue that while Raphinha also benefits from his team’s tactics, the difference is that he is not the focal point. In fact, there are always multiple focal points with Barca, essentially three more in the vast majority of matches.
All of that isn’t to say that Raphinha should win and/or that Salah shouldn’t win. I don’t see a conclusive winner as of right now.
Who exactly are you going to replace him with? Who in the game today would do better?
Personally, I’m all for Nico Williams, but as a teammate of Raphinha’s, not a replacement. Plenty of problems with this including Williams’ potential wage demands, enough places/minutes in the team for all three of Lamine, Raph and Williams and Raphinha’s insistence on playing.
Gotcha Javier.
Savant
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 36,797
- 12,262
There is nothing bad/wrong in here. It’s just a matter of interpretation just cutting some stuff out for organization
Every time I watch Barca, everything runs through Pedri and Yamal. Too me, I think Pedri and Yamal are more important to Barca success this season than Yamal. It’s like the Oilers with McDavid Draisaitl and Hyman. Raphinha is Hyman. (Not the best analogy but bear with me I think you understand what I am trying to say here). Raphinha has had great production but I just don’t think he is Barca’s best guy.
It’s a bit of hyperbole but again. To me it’s just as binary as I don’t think he’s Barca’s best guy.
This really where I agree most. I don’t mean to dump on Raphinha, I just like Salah’s case better. I do t think k anything you said is invalid though. Which is okay.
I look at Salah and he he unquestionably the alpha dog in his team and in his league right now. Salah just won FWA Player of the Year by the largest margin this century. He is having a literally historic output season by Premier League standards. It’s an all timer PL season from Salah. Not to say Raphinha isn’t of course, but LFC without Salah is a lot worse off than Barca without Raphinha.
But of course as I have said, Dembele is the rightful ‘favorite’ this season anyway
Last edited:
It was more so about the second point. IMO it doesn’t matter what a players skill is, it’s about the performance. Dembele is clearly more skilled than Raphinha, but that doesn’t mean he’s had a better season (or worse season).
The problem with that argument is that it doesn’t consider various players’ roles and more importantly doesn’t consider Raphinha’s assists (which doesn’t take into account the misses his teammates have had when he’s set them up). As for who the best guy is, I’m not saying he is. I’m saying all three have been equally important this season.
And I’m completely fine with you or anyone else preferring player X over Raphinha. However, the argument has been that Raphinha isn’t part of the discussion and that’s the bit that’s ridiculous.
I don’t disagree with the majority of this, but there’s a lot of context. Barca arguably have more alphas, the Premiership clearly had an overall downturn season and he has little competition as a result, the season isn’t just about league performance Raphinha equaled a record/historic mark in the CL which is a bigger and more competitive competition than the CL, and La Liga has more alphas than the Premiership as is evidenced by Barca alone (but you also have Mbappe at this moment in time).
Again, I’m fine with Mbappe, but I just I don’t think there’s a favorite right now.
bluesfan94
Registered User
Savant
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 36,797
- 12,262
Raphinha is, and should be part of the conversation. 100%. That’s not what I am trying to say at all. I just don’t have him 1.
I don’t think the Premiership is down at all. Been over this a bunch and don’t really care to rehash, but I don’t think there is a ton of evidence besides Man City’s first half doldrums (which they resolved by spending nine figures in January) that suggest the PL is down.
Don’t get me wrong, full respect to Liverpool for their title run and I’m not trying to diminish this season at all. After all, you can only beat what is in front of you and regardless of that I think Liverpool have a good side as was evidenced in the CL. However, I do think the league is down notably. City full off a cliff as much as that side can and Arsenal again seem unable to put forward a real title challenge. United are way off it. Chelsea are still trying to figure it out. Just not a great season.
robertmac43
Forever 43!
- Mar 31, 2015
- 23,488
- 18,419
Savant
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 36,797
- 12,262
United are a game away from the champions league next season. So are Tottenham. Those teams are 15th and 16th. 15th and 16th going through the Europa League doesn’t scream down year to me. The conference league doesn’t really count but Chelsea in the final there. The 4-8 teams have all been very good all season. 12th is in a domestic cup final. People think the league is down because a lot of the bigger name teams have underachieved, but a pig part of that is the bottom half of top half have all been consistently good
Well it should. United, Spurs and Chelsea are all CL level clubs with the spending they have at their disposal. Chelsea very well might outspend much of the rest of the Conference league put together. And I wouldn’t be touting United or Spurs with their runs to the final. Besides, none of this is relevant to their league form.
As for the league itself, not buying that either. A few clubs are doing better, but generally many aren’t as good as last season. It’s very clearly a notably weaker league than just last season alone.
Savant
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 36,797
- 12,262
I disagree with this. These teams have been bad before and not been punished for it. The reason they are THAT far down the table is in large part because a stronger middle class has pushed them down. A bad United season has never been 15/16 bad. And even if they have been better in Europa than the league, that is still a fair way to judge league strength - Norwegian League withstanding for obvious reasons
I don't think there are any metrics that back this up. League just looks different than people are used to seeing it. There wasn't a clash of the Titans at the top, and the relegation teams were atrocious, but the league has been good this year.
You’re overplaying it. They weren’t this bad and again it’s multiple teams. City and Arsenal and especially the sides you mentioned are all notably worse. Other sides are a bit off of last season as well. The middle teams aren’t that much better either with maybe an exception or two. The league is obviously not as strong as it was last season.
As for the Europa League, it’s a mixed bag. Generally though, they didn’t have a lot of competition and when they did they scraped by. And results can be explained. Bilbao had that early red card, which from what I’ve heard was harsh. Second leg they barely fielded their B team. This is also a team that as I noted months ago is very inconsistent this season. You already touched on the Norwegian competitors.
The metrics are the league table and the respective points of clubs compared to last season. If you don’t think the likes of City, Arsenal, Chelsea, United and Spurs are notably worse than last season I don’t know what to tell you. It’s painfully obvious. Newcastle are slightly better. Villa are if you go by the table, but I think they’re the same if not slightly worse, but I’m not certain of that one. West Ham is way off it. Really for me the clubs that are notably better are Forest, Fulham and Brentford. IMO Bournemouth are better, but form his really taken a dip in the back half of the season. Anyway, the improved clubs don’t make up for the clubs that are notably worse.
Savant
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 36,797
- 12,262
I mean last season the PL had three very good teams, and everyone else was lousy. This yeah there was one great team, and 6-8 good teams. There are 11 teams in the PL with a positive xG difference. That’s a very competitive league. La Liga has 8. Bundesliga has 8. Serie A had 10; and everyone was pooping on that league this year too. But perception of Serie A is different because there is still a title race. L1 has 9 and we know that league is underrated, but again it looks skewed because PSG is probably the best team on the planet right now.
I get all that. But if we are comparing strength of leagues vs each other, it’s silly to ignore what leagues teams that have made the European finals are from. It’s not United’s fault Bilbao took a dumb red card.
And every one of those teams except Arsenal have a chance to win a trophy this year. Just because Arsenal is bad does not mean the league is bad. City started bad, spent nine figures in January and saved their season.
I don’t agree. The middle teams are significantly better. The bigger name teams are slightly worse; largely because the middle teams can take points off them now.
Is La Liga is weak because Barca have basically run opposed because Madrid is a basket case, Atletico imploded after the calendar turned, and one of the best players in that league since February is Antony; who without hyperbole was one of the worst players in England when he left for Betis?
Not sure what positive xG demonstrates when it comes to the quality of a league, especially when you can get different results for the same match from different sources. Regardless of that, I don’t buy your take on this year’s Premiership vs last year’s for one second. If the league is so competitive, then how come the title race is done dusted? How come the relegation battles is done and dusted? As for the middle teams, you’re painting in broad strokes and I’ve already covered the clubs individually. And to write off the performances of City, Arsenal, United and Spurs down to the middle table teams is incredible.
As for comparing it to La Liga, not sure what that has to do with Salah, but I’ll bite. La Liga is in some ways worse, in other ways better. Overall I’d say it’s slightly worse, but that’s more so team specific. Bilbao are in my opinion more inconsistent, but when on their game slightly better. La Real are notably worse, but that’s to be expected when you keep losing key players. Villarreal are worse having lost Sorloth, but not as much as expected. Girona are notably worse. Valencia are about the same despite a horrendous start. Betis are notably better, but that’s based more on the second half of their season. Celta are notably better. Madrid are worse, but still have a lot of talent to get them through. Barca are notably better and I’d say the rivals have essentially switch spots. Atleti are definitely better too and I’d say better than every Premiership side not named Liverpool or Arsenal.
Fortunately we also have the CL and other competitions to note as I have already done. Anyway, I’m done debating about the Premiership considering there’s additional argument that I’m seeing.
As for the players, Raphinha with 2 more goals today in a what is likely a title-deciding Clasico. He scored the go-ahead goal as well as what turned out to be the match-winning goal. So let’s update the numbers:
-18 goals and 9 assists in 28 league starts
-13 goals and 8 assists in 14 CL starts, equaling the record for goal contributions.
-1 goal and 4 assists in 5 Copa matches.
-32 goals and 21 assists all season which doesn't even include the Supercopa which is now a competitive competition.
-Delivered in multiple big matches.
-Hat-trick in CL against Bayern during the group stage.
-Goal and assist in the first Clasico.
-2 goals in the second Clasico
-3 goals and an assist in tie against Benfica in CL Round of 16.
-1 goal and an assist in tie against Dortmund in CL QF.
-1 goal and an assist in tie against Inter in CL SF.
-2 assists in Copa Semi against Atleti.
-2 goals and an assist in Supercopa Clasico final.
-5 goals and 2 assists total in 4 matches against Madrid.
-Arguably most times Man of the Match for Barca, as many as 16 times.
So current update:
Salah: 33 goals, 23 assists, 48(2) matches, 4323 minutes*
Raphinha: 34 goals, 21 assists, 48(4) matches, 4418 minutes**
* Salah’s domestic cup wasn’t the FA Cup but rather the League Cup.
** Raphinha’s numbers include the Spanish Super Cup which is now a highly competitive competition.
So yeah, Raphinha definitely should be in the same conversation as Salah as far as this season goes.
Savant
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 36,797
- 12,262
The title race is done because one team was better than the other teams. The league is competitive because for most of the season the spots from, at the minimum, 3-8 have been in flux. I don’t understand how that’s not competitive. The relegation three have absolutely been atrocious but honestly that more because it’s more beneficial for those teams to yo-yo anyway. And yeah those four teams being worse means more teams are taking away points from them. Which means more teams are better. When City was winning PLs, teams didn’t even bother to show up against them. That’s not the case anymore.
Raphinha has been putting up stats at a great rate. It is also true that the offense does not run through him at all. Hes done a great job, but he’s feasted on some terrible defenses including Madrid’s who started a midfielder and a REDACTED youth player who is only surviving in that lineup because he had Rudiger babysitting him . And again it is very clear that Yamal is running the show in the forward line there.
