Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[TMLBlueandWhite]

You waive the 40 year old. He threatens to retire if claimed and you carry him around as your 7th and plsy cap gymnastics when you wanna activate him.


Gio is the easy answer, no?

Gio makes the most sense.

But when has this team ever done what's made the most sense? I don't see them starting to act rationally now. Not when it comes to winning the cup anyways.

After all Giordano still sells more jersey's than Benoit, Liljegren, and Timmins.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Gio makes the most sense.

But when has this team ever done what's made the most sense? I don't see them starting to act rationally now. Not when it comes to winning the cup anyways.

After all Giordano still sells more jersey's than Benoit, Liljegren, and Timmins.

Pretty much every move in the dubas era was rational and you could see why/what they were thinking and doing. Whether you agree or it worked out you cannot deny that. Tre seems to be going in a similar direction so no sorry I don’t share your sentiments and I’m sure many others don’t either

 

[sxvnert]

The biggest knock on Treliving so far is the defense.

Its a complete train wreck.

Even if you remove Gio you're left with:

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Liljegren
Timmins Klingberg

or if you slot everyone by hand:

Rielly Liljegren
Brodie Klingberg
McCabe Timmins

Still horrible.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Its a complete train wreck.

Even if you remove Gio you're left with:

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Liljegren
Timmins Klingberg

or if you slot everyone by hand:

Rielly Liljegren
Brodie Klingberg
McCabe Timmins

Still horrible.

They have Benoit too, but he's probably just a heavier hitting, even less offensive version of McCabe.

Brodie and Giordano were already discarded by Treliving before. I don't see any reason why Treliving wouldn't just waive Giordano. Unless Shanahan is preventing him.

I suspect Jarnkrok better have another good year too or he might be traded.

Brodie won't be back next year.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Pretty much every move in the dubas era was rational and you could see why/what they were thinking and doing. Whether you agree or it worked out you cannot deny that. Tre seems to be going in a similar direction so no sorry I don’t share your sentiments and I’m sure many others don’t either

I'm sorry, but I don't see any valid rationale for signing a player who you know will be no more than your 2C after the first year, for one of the highest amounts in the league (higher than most of the 1Cs in the league), plus give him max term, plus give him a full NMC for the full term.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The biggest knock on Treliving so far is the defense.

It wasn't good enough last year. And Treliving's solution was to bring in the worst pair in the league. At best this sounds like it might be a bad idea.

At worst it's face palmingly stupid.

There's a non-zero chance Treliving eats a turd sandwich here. For crying out loud sign one or the other. Not both.

Even worse is that the same problems still exist.

Too many soft players. With too many guys who can't raise their game in the playoffs. Too many fat heads with no jam.

As for all those extra NHL defensemen the team has?

Liljegren, Timmins, Benoit, and Giordano. Someone is gonna get waived. The only question is who it's gonna be.

And if they will clear.

Go Leafs Go.

Why do you keep putting Lilly in the group that could get waived? Unless we find out he did something so stupid that the Leafs have to terminate his contract which requires waivers, then he's not getting waived.

Its a complete train wreck.

Even if you remove Gio you're left with:

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Liljegren
Timmins Klingberg

or if you slot everyone by hand:

Rielly Liljegren
Brodie Klingberg
McCabe Timmins

Still horrible.

It's not complete

 

[Maple Leaf]

Why do you keep putting Lilly in the group that could get waived? Unless we find out he did something so stupid that the Leafs have to terminate his contract which requires waivers, then he's not getting waived.



It's not complete

you need a phyisicl d who snmmcan block shots cler the creszsee shutdown not this

 

[Nylanderthal]

Its a complete train wreck.

Even if you remove Gio you're left with:

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Liljegren
Timmins Klingberg

or if you slot everyone by hand:

Rielly Liljegren
Brodie Klingberg
McCabe Timmins

Still horrible.

That’s a blue line that bye and large was top 7-10 in every defensive isolated metric you could come up with last season. I’m not sure what all the hand wringing is about.
Every year chicken Little’s think the sky is falling and every year under keefe they’re a top 10 defensive team

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Why do you keep putting Lilly in the group that could get waived? Unless we find out he did something so stupid that the Leafs have to terminate his contract which requires waivers, then he's not getting waived.



It's not complete

Well now that Timmins is hurt he can't be waived.

I doubt Benoit was signed just to be waived. That leaves Gio or Liljegren. I'm guessing it's Liljegren.

They might not even need to waive anyone to start the year now anyway if Klingberg is on IR for a week or two.

 

[TheRumble]

That’s a blue line that bye and large was top 7-10 in every defensive isolated metric you could come up with last season. I’m not sure what all the hand wringing is about.
Every year chicken Little’s think the sky is falling and every year under keefe they’re a top 10 defensive team

Same boat as you. I sometimes question whether or not anyone watches hockey or if they just look at box scores and then complain on this forum all day. One of my most tone deaf exchanges was with a mod here who claimed that Jack Campbell was a really good goalie who was let down by the Leafs in 2021-22 season. That guy hasn't praised Campbell since he left for Edmonton. Wonder why?

Here's the Leafs' stats from the last three seasons combined:

Shots attempts allowed: 8th best in the league

Shots on goal: 6th best in the league

Goals against: 10th best in the league

Expected Goals against: 7th best in the league

Scoring chances allowed: 9th best in the league

PP Goals Allowed: 9th best in the league

HFBoard Hockey Watchers: "We have terrible defense"

 

[notDatsyuk]

Same boat as you. I sometimes question whether or not anyone watches hockey or if they just look at box scores and then complain on this forum all day. One of my most tone deaf exchanges was with a mod here who claimed that Jack Campbell was a really good goalie who was let down by the Leafs in 2021-22 season. That guy hasn't praised Campbell since he left for Edmonton. Wonder why?

Here's the Leafs' stats from the last three seasons combined:

Shots attempts allowed: 8th best in the league

Shots on goal: 6th best in the league

Goals against: 10th best in the league

Expected Goals against: 7th best in the league

Scoring chances allowed: 9th best in the league

PP Goals Allowed: 9th best in the league

HFBoard Hockey Watchers: "We have terrible defense"

Two somewhat different issues.

Our collection of defencemen isn't all that great. Our overall team defence (which is what the stats you quote measure) is top ten.

And that's only the defensive side of the equation. How much do our defencemen contribute to the offence compared to the league?

I don't side with the doom-and-gloomers, but I think there are some legitimate concerns.

 

[TheOne]

That’s a blue line that bye and large was top 7-10 in every defensive isolated metric you could come up with last season. I’m not sure what all the hand wringing is about.
Every year chicken Little’s think the sky is falling and every year under keefe they’re a top 10 defensive team

>>every year under keefe they’re a top 10 defensive team

Well let's just award them the Stanley Cup right now! And retroactively award it to them every year since chief Keefe was handed the reins to this team to make baffling decision after baffling decision!

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Two somewhat different issues.

Our collection of defencemen isn't all that great. Our overall team defence (which is what the stats you quote measure) is top ten.

And that's only the defensive side of the equation. How much do our defencemen contribute to the offence compared to the league?

I don't side with the doom-and-gloomers, but I think there are some legitimate concerns.

Torture the data long enough and it will confess to anything.

I think what half the problem is, that a lot of people who use stats to try and back their point, don't actually understand the context behind the numbers.

For example, the Leafs had good defensive stats last year. But that's not because they have a good "defense" proper. It's because they hem the opposition into their own end for extended periods of time.

The best defense is a good offense.

That's why Klingberg was brought in. They are adding to their strengths. Look for them to patch the weaknesses at deadline.

I sometimes question whether the people who quote stats without context actually watch hockey or if they just look at a few numbers and use it support a pre-conceived narrative.

Like the Leafs are good in their own end.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Well now that Timmins is hurt he can't be waived.

I doubt Benoit was signed just to be waived. That leaves Gio or Liljegren. I'm guessing it's Liljegren.

They might not even need to waive anyone to start the year now anyway if Klingberg is on IR for a week or two.

Benoit was singed to be a Marlie which requires waivers so that's exactly why he was signed

 

[kevsh]

HFBoard Hockey Watchers: "We have terrible defense"

You did neglect the fact the Leafs have very good defensive forwards that helped with those stats you pointed out, and even though ranking-wise the blue line seems fairly solid they haven't had that big body/punishing d-man (esp. now that Muzzin is done) and that Reilly hasn't been the answer to anchor PP1. Plus, there are those that insist you need a "stud" on defense to go deep which the Leafs don't have.

So yes, they've been fairly good - certainly not terrible - but still not a Stanley Cup-winning blue line.

(I should also point out that almost universally it was agreed that Reilly had a bad season last year until he stepped up in the playoffs, Brodie was not as good as he's been and Holl was dreadful. That's 3/4 of the top 2 units so ... )

 

[Leaf Army]

I love what they’re doing.

This is the deepest and most balanced group of forwards we’ve had in the Matthews era.

Spreading the offence out over three lines. Nylander at centre. Surrounding Tavares with two-way wingers.

Having actual checking forwards on the fourth line instead of failed offensive-minded guys like Malgin.

These are all great moves. They’re finally getting it.

Then when you consider we still have Minten, Robertson, Cowan and Grebenkin coming in the next few years to provide more reinforcements. They’re in very good shape.

The defence obviously has some question marks. I have zero issues with this defence over the regular season. They’ll likely need to add a guy or two back there for the playoffs.

Goaltending is my biggest concern right now. Will they be able to keep Jones as depth? If not do they have the depth to withstand an injury to Samsonov? They might but this worries me a bit.

 

[sxvnert]

That’s a blue line that bye and large was top 7-10 in every defensive isolated metric you could come up with last season. I’m not sure what all the hand wringing is about.
Every year chicken Little’s think the sky is falling and every year under keefe they’re a top 10 defensive tease

That’s a blue line that bye and large was top 7-10 in every defensive isolated metric you could come up with last season. I’m not sure what all the hand wringing is about.
Every year chicken Little’s think the sky is falling and every year under keefe they’re a top 10 defensive team

Season being the key word in your statement. Come playoff time it wont hold up.

 

[Maple Leaf]

That’s a blue line that bye and large was top 7-10 in every defensive isolated metric you could come up with last season. I’m not sure what all the hand wringing is about.
Every year chicken Little’s think the sky is falling and every year under keefe they’re a top 10 defensive team

and every year they are eliminated early

 

[BraveCanadian]

The Leafs blueline is really really weak unless Brodie rebounds, Gio hasn't totally fallen off the cliff like he did in the playoffs, and Liljegren steps up.

Their numbers look good in the regular season but in the playoffs they get beat physically so badly. That is why Schenn looked so good in the playoffs while he's a borderline NHLer in the regular season. McCabe was decent too but needs to play within his limitations.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

you need a phyisicl d who snmmcan block shots cler the creszsee shutdown not this

Lilly was 3rd on the team in +/- even though he only had 18 pts. He was also 4th on the team in blocks with only 67 games. Those numbers alone suggest he's pretty good at defense and you think he should get waived?

 

[ULF_55]

I love what they’re doing.

This is the deepest and most balanced group of forwards we’ve had in the Matthews era.

Spreading the offence out over three lines. Nylander at centre. Surrounding Tavares with two-way wingers.

Having actual checking forwards on the fourth line instead of failed offensive-minded guys like Malgin.

These are all great moves. They’re finally getting it.

Then when you consider we still have Minten, Robertson, Cowan and Grebenkin coming in the next few years to provide more reinforcements. They’re in very good shape.

The defence obviously has some question marks. I have zero issues with this defence over the regular season. They’ll likely need to add a guy or two back there for the playoffs.

Goaltending is my biggest concern right now. Will they be able to keep Jones as depth? If not do they have the depth to withstand an injury to Samsonov? They might but this worries me a bit.

Yes, it looks like the drafts have some futures that should make the big team.

Now that of course has nothing to do with Treliving as he wasn't involved until the 2nd. round of the 2023 draft.

Yep, the Leafs don't have that "stud" defenseman, but they do have elite forwards that other teams do not have.

Goaltending is the huge question mark as Woll or Jones will be going on waivers, traded or LTIR'd.

Not sure Jones is as bad as some claim, he did just about as well as Grubauer on the Kracken, but didn't get the playoffs. Grubauer has a huge contract so he's their guy.

Leafs just haven't hit a homerun on defense, and none of that is on Treliving.

Last 20 drafts:

Draft Year	Pick#	Round	Player	Position	From	NHL Games	Goals	Assists	Points	Penalty Minutes
2005 Entry	216​	7​	Anton Stralman	D	Skovde IK [Swe-1]	938​	63​	230​	293​	287​
2008 Entry	5​	1​	Luke Schenn	D	Kelowna Rockets [WHL]	933​	42​	149​	191​	764​
2012 Entry	5​	1​	Morgan Rielly	D	Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]	719​	73​	341​	414​	202​
2007 Entry	194​	7​	Carl Gunnarsson	D	Linkopings HC [SEL]	629​	30​	108​	138​	179​
2008 Entry	128​	5​	Greg Pateryn	D	Ohio Junior Blue Jackets [USHL]	290​	5​	39​	44​	178​
2015 Entry	34​	2​	Travis Dermott	D	Erie Otters [OHL]	279​	14​	41​	55​	102​
2006 Entry	111​	4​	Korbinian Holzer	D	Bad Toelz EC [2.GBun]	206​	6​	21​	27​	139​
2018 Entry	29​	1​	Rasmus Sandin	D	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]	159​	13​	50​	63​	53​
2017 Entry	17​	1​	Timothy Liljegren	D	Rogle BK Angelholm [SweHL]	141​	11​	31​	42​	48​
2018 Entry	52​	2​	Sean Durzi	D	Owen Sound Attack [OHL]	136​	12​	53​	65​	105​
2010 Entry	116​	4​	Petter Granberg	D	Skelleftea AIK Jr. [Swe-Jr]	45​	0​	2​	2​	29​
2014 Entry	68​	3​	Rinat Valiev	D	Kootenay Ice [WHL]	12​	0​	0​	0​	2​
2011 Entry	25​	1​	Stuart Percy	D	Mississauga St. Michael's Majors [OHL]	12​	0​	3​	3​	2​
2008 Entry	188​	7​	Andrew MacWilliam	D	Camrose Kodiaks [AJHL]	12​	0​	2​	2​	12​
2005 Entry	82​	3​	Phil Oreskovic	D	Brampton Battalion [OHL]	10​	1​	1​	2​	21​
2018 Entry	118​	4​	Mac Hollowell	D	Soo Greyhounds [OHL]	6​	0​	2​	2​	2​
2012 Entry	209​	7​	Viktor Loov	D	Sodertalje SK [Swe-1]	4​	0​	2​	2​	0​
2016 Entry	101​	4​	Keaton Middleton	D	Saginaw Spirit [OHL]	3​	0​	0​	0​	4​
2018 Entry	149​	5​	Filip Kral	D	Spokane Chiefs [WHL]	2​	0​	0​	0​	2​
2009 Entry	58​	2​	Jesse Blacker	D	Windsor Spitfires [OHL]	1​	0​	0​	0​	0​
2023 Entry	185​	6​	Noah Chadwick	D	Lethbridge Hurricanes [WHL]
2020 Entry	189​	7​	John Fusco	D	Dexter Southfield (Mass. H.S.)
2020 Entry	177​	6​	Axel Rindell	D	Jukurit Mikkeli [SM-liiga]
2020 Entry	122​	4​	William Villeneuve	D	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2020 Entry	64​	3​	Topi Niemela	D	Karpat [SM-liiga]
2019 Entry	204​	7​	Kalle Loponen	D	Karpat [Finland Jrs.]
2019 Entry	146​	5​	Michael Koster	D	Chaska [Minn. H.S.]
2019 Entry	84​	3​	Mikko Kokkonen	D	Jukurit Mikkeli [SM-liiga]
2017 Entry	203​	7​	Ryan O'Connell	D	St. Andrews [Ont. H.S.]
2017 Entry	141​	5​	Fedor Gordeev	D	Flint Firebirds [OHL]
2017 Entry	59​	2​	Eemeli Rasanen	D	Kingston Frontenacs [OHL]
2016 Entry	179​	6​	Nicolas Mattinen	D	London Knights [OHL]
2016 Entry	72​	3​	J.D. Greenway	D	U.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2015 Entry	155​	6​	Stephen Desrocher	D	Oshawa Generals [OHL]
2015 Entry	95​	4​	Jesper Lindgren	D	MODO Jrs. (Sweden)
2015 Entry	65​	3​	Andrew Nielsen	D	Lethbridge Hurricanes [WHL]
2012 Entry	35​	2​	Matt Finn	D	Guelph Storm [OHL]
2011 Entry	203​	7​	Max Everson	D	Edina H.S. (Minn.)
2011 Entry	173​	6​	Dennis Robertson	D	Brown University [ECAC]
2011 Entry	100​	4​	Tom Nilsson	D	Mora IK Jr. [Swe-Jr]
2009 Entry	188​	7​	Barron Smith	D	Peterborough Petes [OHL]
2009 Entry	128​	5​	Eric Knodel	D	Philadelphia Jr. Flyers
2007 Entry	134​	5​	Juraj Mikus	D	Trencin Jrs (Slovakia)
2004 Entry	220​	7​	Maxim Semenov	D	Tolyatti Lada [Russia]
2004 Entry	157​	5​	Dmitry Vorobiev	D	Tolyatti Lada [Russia]
2003 Entry	57​	2​	John Doherty	D	Phillips-Andover (Mass.)

 

[Sypher04]

That list is abysmal save for maybe a half dozen or so guys it’s too early to tell on, Stralman (who we traded before he became good) and Rielly who has been an excellent pick

 

[Sypher04]

Taking it a bit further.
The Leafs have only gotten 2090 games total out of drafted defenseman the last 20 years. Of that Rielly is more than a third of them.

719gp Rielly
(the one bright spot: top pairing, excellent offensive defenseman)
325gp Schenn
(His first 4 seasons on bad teams, brought back for 15 games as a vet)
304gp Gunnarsson
(depth defender on bad teams, reliableish)
251gp Dermott
(bottom pairing offensive defenseman who can’t generate offense, no upside)
140gp Sandin
(bottom pairing offensive defensemen who doesn’t generate much 5 on 5 offense, has potential top 4 upside)
141gp Liljegren
(bottom pairing two-way defender, has potential top 4 upside)
————
1880gp
90%

 

[Leaf Army]

Yes, it looks like the drafts have some futures that should make the big team.

Now that of course has nothing to do with Treliving as he wasn't involved until the 2nd. round of the 2023 draft.

Yep, the Leafs don't have that "stud" defenseman, but they do have elite forwards that other teams do not have.

Treliving may not be directly responsible for bringing these guys in but I give him credit for recognizing this team did not need to blown up. Some others would have come in and done that.

I think some of these smaller lineup changes they’re making are going to have a bigger impact than people realize.

For the defence some of the questions will need to be answered through the season.

- How well will Klingberg fit in?
- Was Brodie’s play toward the end of the season injury related or regression?
- Will Liljegren take another step up and become a legit top 3 guy?
- Will Giordano benefit from some workload management?
- Do they have a surprise young player waiting to step up? Benoit, Timmins, Rifai etc…

If things go well and break the Leafs way I can see them adding some depth defence pieces at the deadline.

If it’s clear a bigger change is necessary maybe later in the in year you clear Brodie or Jarnkrok’s salary and package something like Liljegren, Robertson and some picks for a bigger addition.

 

[notDatsyuk]

That list is abysmal save for maybe a half dozen or so guys it’s too early to tell on, Stralman (who we traded before he became good) and Rielly who has been an excellent pick

Schenn was pretty good, but not used properly.

Gunnarsson was a very good defensive defenceman (the only one we had who could cover for Phaneuf), and an excellent find for a 7th rounder.

Yeah, beyond those four there's an awful lot of not an awful lot.