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Bottom Six Production

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Don't mind having one of Nolan or Clifford on the roster, they both can provide some toughness while not being complete liabilities most of the time. Which is kind of the modern day version of a goon, the problem is, you can't have them both playing regularly, especially when the bottom six is already full of offensive black holes like Shore, AA, Lewis and Brown.

And ideally you want to be paying a guy like that no more than 800k-1m, Clifford's salary is way to high at $1.6 and Nolan's is more manageable at 850k
 
I'm on board with you guys in wanting to see a bit of a youth movement in place of guys who just take up a healthy chunk of salary cap space.

Find a way to move on from Brown, let Lewis go, move one of Clifford or Nolan, and I think we all know Versteeg's tenure as a King will go the way of Cliff Ronning or Anson Carter. Lecavalier will also retire which will open up an additional spot.

If Lucic is re-signed, the top six will likely consist of a rotation of Kopitar, Lucic, Carter, Toffoli, Pearson and Gaborik.

That leaves King, one of Clifford or Nolan, Andreoff and Shore as bottom six guys who could be back next season. Dowd should be competing for a spot as a center, Mersch can serve as a 4th line LW who could move up the lineup, and Kempe is versatile enough to play any wing (he looked damn good at RW on Team Sweden at the WJC).

I know we all mock the Sharks for being chokers, but I like what they have going with their bottom six lineup and how most of the guys are all homegrown talent and younger players who are given an opportunity without any pressure to post big numbers.

There's enough leadership and experience in King and either Clifford or Nolan to help the younger guys to succeed as they've all gone through the same process. And guys like Andreoff and Shore will be a year older and wiser and hopefully continue to improve.
 
The problem I have with the youth movement is that it is a huge defensive liability. While players like Clifford, Lewis, and King get criticized for not scoring enough, they are strong defensively and have mastered Sutter's system.

Remember, unlike the Blackhawks, the Kings are not successful because of the individual talents of the players, but rather the team's ability to play like a collective, well-oiled machine. It will take a long time to get the younger players up to speed, but I suppose its possible and a necessary evil with the salary cap. We will feel the biggest pain in the playoffs next year if we have a youth movement.
 
AlphaBravo said:
The problem I have with the youth movement is that it is a huge defensive liability. While players like Clifford, Lewis, and King get criticized for not scoring enough, they are strong defensively and have mastered Sutter's system.

Remember, unlike the Blackhawks, the Kings are not successful because of the individual talents of the players, but rather the team's ability to play like a collective, well-oiled machine. It will take a long time to get the younger players up to speed, but I suppose its possible and a necessary evil with the salary cap. We will feel the biggest pain in the playoffs next year if we have a youth movement.
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Good point. I used to want to see the youth up, hoping like Pearson and Toffoli that they could be significant contributors to the score sheet while being able to play defensively as well. Now, though, I see all our youth from Ontario just making the bottom pair or 4th line crowded. I have some hope for Mersch, but neither he nor Shore nor Andreoff have shown much promise offensively. Gravel and Forbort project to be bottom pair defenders, and we already have Schenn, McBain, Greene and one of McNabb/Scuderi for that slot. Like you said, Clifford and Nolan (and Lewis) can't score, but they know what they're doing within Sutter's system.
 
AlphaBravo said:
The problem I have with the youth movement is that it is a huge defensive liability. While players like Clifford, Lewis, and King get criticized for not scoring enough, they are strong defensively and have mastered Sutter's system.

Remember, unlike the Blackhawks, the Kings are not successful because of the individual talents of the players, but rather the team's ability to play like a collective, well-oiled machine. It will take a long time to get the younger players up to speed, but I suppose its possible and a necessary evil with the salary cap. We will feel the biggest pain in the playoffs next year if we have a youth movement.
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I'm interested to see what Lombardi means to do when he talks about a 5 year window.
 
Hard to justify going all in year after year when you only have the immediate assets to land castoffs from other teams, the big names go to the "real hockey towns" and we get royally screwed 18 ways to Sunday via Voynov, Sekera, and Richards. I'm amazed we even got a guy like Lucic to be honest, and all that just to potentially run our faces into our own ****ing development Martin Jones for an entire series.

Sutter and his system makes basically everyone look at least passable, can you imagine if this team had more quality young players instead of guys who are like 5 years outside their prime being paid like they haven't even peaked yet?
 
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gnarls barkley said:
Hard to justify going all in year after year when you only have the immediate assets to land castoffs from other teams, the big names go to the "real hockey towns" and we get royally screwed 18 ways to Sunday via Voynov, Sekera, and Richards. I'm amazed we even got a guy like Lucic to be honest, and all that just to potentially run our faces into our own ****ing development Martin Jones for an entire series.

Sutter and his system makes basically everyone look at least passable, can you imagine if this team had more quality young players instead of guys who are like 5 years outside their prime being paid like they haven't even peaked yet?
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Who would we have instead? Marko Dano, etc.?

The assets we've traded, for the most part, have not even sniffed the NHL yet. Obviously can't say we would have drafted the same way but with our record on mid-first-rounders vs. practically everything else I'm not too upset about our GM going for it when he sees the chance.

Also, why would you NOT get a guy like Lucic, when we're on pace for our best season in franchise history since 1975--and possibly best ever? If you DONT go hard while your window is open, may as well rebuild, no? What was the alternative, re-sign Williams?

Edit: also Martin Jones is great when hot--but until his recent (unsustainable) hot streak with the rest of the Sharks, he was providing .910 goaltending...that would have gotten him absolutely eviscerated around here. I'm not at all mad we acquired a 1st line, unique LW for a guy who was a contract issue and a backup goaltender here just because Boston turned around and screwed us by giving him to our rival who is hungrily rummaging through our trash can for a snack.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
Who would we have instead? Marko Dano, etc.?

The assets we've traded, for the most part, have not even sniffed the NHL yet. Obviously can't say we would have drafted the same way but with our record on mid-first-rounders vs. practically everything else I'm not too upset about our GM going for it when he sees the chance.

Also, why would you NOT get a guy like Lucic, when we're on pace for our best season in franchise history since 1975--and possibly best ever? If you DONT go hard while your window is open, may as well rebuild, no? What was the alternative, re-sign Williams?

Edit: also Martin Jones is great when hot--but until his recent (unsustainable) hot streak with the rest of the Sharks, he was providing .910 goaltending...that would have gotten him absolutely eviscerated around here. I'm not at all mad we acquired a 1st line, unique LW for a guy who was a contract issue and a backup goaltender here just because Boston turned around and screwed us by giving him to our rival who is hungrily rummaging through our trash can for a snack.
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nah, just kinda venting on things for last year and this year's team that would never happen. Why the Kings are playing such catch up compared to what should have been. Not saying what we traded turned into showstoppers, but more that those were just assets we would still have to make bigger moves with. I think going all-in this year is a good move, but I get the recent discussion on a 5 year plan and not giving away high value assets again too.

Like, we had a ridiculously, ABSURDLY, good, young D core perfectly supplemented with vets - Doughty/Muzzin/Voynov/AMart is a crazy crazy good top 4, and all under 30, and 3 of the 4 with under 5M cap hits. That's insane in this day and age. Then Voynov went and ****ed everything up, forcing Dean's hand for Sekera - which not only meant we lost assets (again - not saying what we traded would be any better as actual players with us now, but that's straight up just trade assets we didn't have to give this year) but also an actual top 4 D when Sekera walked.

Maybe if Sekera or Voynov were still with the team then we wouldn't have gotten Lucic, but boy, sure would have smoothed out just about every issue the team has had the last two seasons. And that's not even touching the Richards debacle.

I don't know - is this iteration of the Kings with Lucic/Vinny/Schenn/Versteeg better than the theoretical Voynov/Richards and maybe Williams still or the assets for a guy like Byfuglien as a rental this year? I have to think with a more solid top 4 D that development of our D prospects could have been done a lot differently as well (aka not having ****ing McNabb in our top 4 all of this year).

Anyways, all this nonsense aside and staying on topic - I'm actually pretty ok with this year's bottom six. Shore is turning into a less physical, better defensive version of Stoll - which is sort of fine, except he needs to stay on the 4th line until he can figure out how to score in the NHL. I honestly like AA's game better, but I think he does better on the wing, so that still doesn't solve the upcoming center depth issue. Vinny is the perfect 3C right now, he looks better every game, but he's obviously just a one-hit wonder this season before retirement. Lewis is for sure gone next year (watch some desperate Eastern team drop 3.5/yr on him), and possibly Clifford too since he's kind of overpaid at 1.6 and becoming highly redundant with the influx of similar guys coming up. Nolan is still cheap and I think they'll keep him around just because, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some combo of prospects/current bottom six guys get dumped for some trade assets (could even see Shore getting moved), and Mersch/Dowd/Kempe called up.
 
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HYORI 1963 said:
I find it interesting that 3 of the least production comes from 3 of the best teams in the league (kings, dux, hawx).
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Kind of, those are 3 teams who all have versatile guys who frequently play up and down the lineup, so I'm sure those numbers aren't entirely accurate. That really just means that those teams have depth good enough to move guys around a lot and not lose a step.

Look at Chicago for instance, Shaw has played everywhere from 4th line to Toews' line. Kinda like we've been seeing with King in the last couple years, playing everywhere from Lewis' wing to Carter's wing.
 
gnarls barkley said:
Kind of, those are 3 teams who all have versatile guys who frequently play up and down the lineup, so I'm sure those numbers aren't entirely accurate. That really just means that those teams have depth good enough to move guys around a lot and not lose a step.

Look at Chicago for instance, Shaw has played everywhere from 4th line to Toews' line. We've been seeing that with King in the last couple years, playing everywhere from Lewis' wing to Carter's wing.
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That's part of the reason why I think the organization likes King so much. He's not a liability or limited enough that he can only be used sparingly. King also has a very affordable contract and is a utility player who can play the same role on any team in the league.

I figure that Clifford, Mersch, Nolan and Andreoff are the four wingers who will be 4th line options. I just don't envision Andreoff being a full time center. Of those players, the only one who has the ability to move up and down the lineup is Mersch, but he needs a lot of work on his skating.

Lately we've seen Clifford utilized in that role, seeing a few shifts on Kopitar's wing, so the team does appear to be trying to do something to get the bottom six to produce. That's also a big reason why the team took a chance with Lecavalier.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
That's part of the reason why I think the organization likes King so much. He's not a liability or limited enough that he can only be used sparingly. King also has a very affordable contract and is a utility player who can play the same role on any team in the league.

I figure that Clifford, Mersch, Nolan and Andreoff are the four wingers who will be 4th line options. I just don't envision Andreoff being a full time center. Of those players, the only one who has the ability to move up and down the lineup is Mersch, but he needs a lot of work on his skating.

Lately we've seen Clifford utilized in that role, seeing a few shifts on Kopitar's wing, so the team does appear to be trying to do something to get the bottom six to produce. That's also a big reason why the team took a chance with Lecavalier.
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I agree, I think King is about as good as it gets for a "bottom 6" type guy. Can play up and down the lineup as needed, can play special teams, defensively responsible, and affordable contract. Literally the only thing you can personally flaw him for is not being quite as physical as you'd like from a guy of his size, but he's still ridiculously good on the boards, so...

I don't like AA as a center either, I like his game but I think he's much better as a wing (kinda like Lewis). I could definitely see Clifford moved due to redundancy and cap hit, but the organization also seems to like him a lot, so it's hard to say.
 
gnarls barkley said:
nah, just kinda venting on things for last year and this year's team that would never happen. Why the Kings are playing such catch up compared to what should have been. Not saying what we traded turned into showstoppers, but more that those were just assets we would still have to make bigger moves with. I think going all-in this year is a good move, but I get the recent discussion on a 5 year plan and not giving away high value assets again too.

Like, we had a ridiculously, ABSURDLY, good, young D core perfectly supplemented with vets - Doughty/Muzzin/Voynov/AMart is a crazy crazy good top 4, and all under 30, and 3 of the 4 with under 5M cap hits. That's insane in this day and age. Then Voynov went and ****ed everything up, forcing Dean's hand for Sekera - which not only meant we lost assets (again - not saying what we traded would be any better as actual players with us now, but that's straight up just trade assets we didn't have to give this year) but also an actual top 4 D when Sekera walked.

<snip>
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I agree with all of this. I guess I was just thinking out loud too--I definitely get the frustration with the burning assets because the players ****ed us, BUT--and obviously it's a different situation--at least the team hasn't completely fallen apart like it did post-Allison/Deadmarsh injury. We had to patch some holes (unsuccessfully thus far in Voynov's case, what a ****er) but we're still a contender when we could have just completely folded after last year's nightmare. Instead, we're having a better year--even if the biggest difference is simply OT records, we're visibly better most nights.
 
League has gone to a top 9 instead of top 6. Players like King are becoming very important. He fits in everywhere.
 
Reclamation Project said:
League has gone to a top 9 instead of top 6. Players like King are becoming very important. He fits in everywhere.
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Yep. More and more you've got a half dozen forwards or more hovering around 14 minutes, there's no real clear demarcation point for people to belabour anymore.
 
damacles1156 said:
Some folks still want to get rid of Dwight King ?
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Thank you for acknowledging other besides just point out me :laugh: I don't necessarily want to get rid of King just limit his minutes to true bottom 6 mins. I think both lucic and Pearson deserve more mins then King every night. He simply doesn't have the skill level to play more minutes sorry
 
KingCanadain1976 said:
Is it really a fit ? or just gets put there because sutter likes him ? I still think hes bottom 6 and we are underusing Pearson which is a mistake because giving him more mins will only help his development,
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He's this generation's Derek Armstrong.
 
At this point I would say King and Brown are about equally effective so King's value at his cap hit is sky high for this team... Nolan and Clifford are about interchangeable, and with Mersch and Kempe due for a roster spot, one of them has to go.
 
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