Bossy vs Brett Hull
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Power play dependent or power play dominant?
The Islanders had maybe the best power play of all time, and it was a big factor in their playoff success. Bossy was regularly called out by opponents and media as the most dangerous weapon on their power play and the player opponents tried to shut down. He was one of the most valuable PP players ever.
Al Arbour used to say he would often have a goal of matching other teams at even-strength, and then they could usually win with their special teams.
Yeah, style of play and team tactics are largely getting ignored or misunderstood here I think. Said another way, those are "facts" not being considered...
Are you able to show best goal-scoring and/or playmaking primes (best 5 or 10 years)?The way I did it was the following:
I took the average Canadian nhl elite scorer, the number change over time, it was calibrated using canadian nhl age male population and to happen to use the top 18 players in 1967 (the last 06 year so around the average first line at that time)
1986-1990 was using the top 32 Canadian in the league and was under that adjusting judged to be the deepest pool of Canadians players.
Trying to take a large amount to remove season to season noise but elite enough to capture how hard it was for people in the best position (ice time wise, PP, assignment) and good at it to score.
Canadian only felt like a way to have a more constant pool of competitor over time when the league opened up versus before, adjusting for Canadian level of competition is impossible, using Canada born nhl age male population being a bad proxy, but the best available.
Since scoring as a percentage of team goals was brought up, here's Bossy on the power play for his career, excluding his injury-plagued final season.
Bossy was on the ice for 477 team goals.
Scored 172 G (36%), 175 A (37%), 347 P (73%)
Those numbers are absolutely elite. 36% is comparable to Alex Ovechkin as a goal scorer. 73% is comparable to Gretzky and Lemieux as a point scorer. And that's relative to his team, which was the best of it's era on the power play.
Ovechkin was similar to Bossy as a shooter from the left circle on the best PP of his era, and the best PP goal scorer of his era. But he only scored a point on around 60% of on-ice PP goals. Bossy was much more involved as a playmaker while matching him as a goal scorer.
Bossy was on the ice for 477 team goals.
Scored 172 G (36%), 175 A (37%), 347 P (73%)
Those numbers are absolutely elite. 36% is comparable to Alex Ovechkin as a goal scorer. 73% is comparable to Gretzky and Lemieux as a point scorer. And that's relative to his team, which was the best of it's era on the power play.
Ovechkin was similar to Bossy as a shooter from the left circle on the best PP of his era, and the best PP goal scorer of his era. But he only scored a point on around 60% of on-ice PP goals. Bossy was much more involved as a playmaker while matching him as a goal scorer.
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At the time, I made some best 3, 6, 10 seasons, for points:
Not consecutive one too
I guess it depends on whether or not you want to cast it as a positive or negative aspect of Bossy's scoring.
For his career, he had 739 ESP in 752 games (385 EVG/354 EVA), and 378 PPP (180 PPG/198 PPA), per game averages of 0.98 EVP and 0.50 PPP.
In the playoffs, in 129 games he had 84 ESP and 76 PPP, per game averages to 0.65 EVP and 0.59 PPP.
Absent Round 1, in 89 games he had 52 ESP and 62 PPP, per game averages of 0.58 EVP and 0.70 PPP.
If you just look at the four dynasty years, the Islanders averaged 4.134 goals per game in the regular season, and 4.666 in the playoffs. Here's a table broken down by strength:
| Games | Goals For | EV | PP | SH | GF/G | EV/G | PP/G | SH/G | |
| Regular | 320 | 1323 | 968 | 303 | 52 | 4.134 | 3.025 | 0.947 | 0.163 |
| Reg Per 80 | 80 | 331 | 242 | 76 | 13 | ||||
| Playoff | 78 | 364 | 242 | 99 | 23 | 4.667 | 3.103 | 1.269 | 0.295 |
| PO Per 80 | 80 | 373 | 248 | 102 | 23 |
In those years, Bossy had 312 ESP and 162 PPP in 313 games (0.996 and 0.517 per game, respectively, very close to his career averages), and 53 ESP and 58 PPP in 72 games in the playoffs (0.736 and 0.805 per game). He averaged about the same PPG, his mix was just different. As you can see from the per-80 numbers, the extra goals for the Islanders come from special teams, not so much even strength (depending on rounding its either 102 PPG and 23 SHG, or 101 PPG and 24 SHG, for 25-26 extra PPG and 10-11 extra SHG, compared to 6 extra EVG).
To give a series example, in the 79-80 finals against Philadelphia, the Islanders were outscored 10-19 at even strength in the series, but scored 15 power play goals in 6 games (they also had a shorthanded goal, to Philadelphia's 6 power play goals). Bossy had 1 even strength assist and 10 power play points (4 PPG/6 PPA) to lead the Islanders in scoring with 11 points. Is that a disappointing series because Bossy only had 1 even strength point in 6 games, or a good one because his 10 power play points contributed to the Islanders winning in 6 games?
Another example is the entire 80-81 run. In the first round against an awful Toronto team (-45 goal differential), the Islanders outscored them 20-4 in 3 games, Bossy had 10 points, 6 even stength, 4 power play. In the second round against Edmonton (+1 goal differential), the Islanders outscored Edmonton 29-20, including 14-11 at even strength, and also scored 13 power play goals in 6 games, with 2 shorthanded goals. Bossy had 2 even strength goals, 2 power play goals, and 7 power play assists. In the third round against the Rangers (-5 goal differential), the Islanders outscored them 22-8 in the sweep, Bossy had 1 even strength goal, 4 power play goals, and 1 power play assist. In the finals against Minnesota (+28), the Islanders outscored them 26-16, including 19-10 at even strength. Bossy had 3 even strength goals, 3 even strength assists, 1 power play goal and 1 power play assist. Was Bossy an even strength powerhouse due to scoring 12 ESP in 8 games against Toronto and Minnesota, or a disappointment because he had 3 ESP in 10 games against Edmonton and New York?
Bossy depended on Trottier as much as Hull depended on Oates. Bossy never stopped scoring but his highs are a full tier below Hull's highs.
The only claim Bossy has over Hull is his insane three straight 17 goal playoffs but Hull is no slouch himself in this area, being the highest-scoring non-Oiler in history.
Trottier was injured that year and Bossy played most of the year with Brent Sutter. Still paced 60 goals.
Please explain that.
Is that true? Sutter played 72 games, Trottier 68. Looks like Trottier missed mid oct-mid November.
Trottier was injured at the start of the season, he played mostly with Bossy for a while when he returned, then Bossy played mostly with Sutter again. So Bossy was with Sutter and Tonelli for the bulk of the season. But he did play with Trottier some of the time.
It is believed that Trottier was playing with a nagging injury for most the season after returning.
Meanwhile, Bossy, Sutter, and Tonelli had played as a line during the Canada Cup and were great together. They got off to a scorching start to the season.
Despite Bossy's success with Sutter that season, he and Trottier always preferred playing together, and so were back together the next season.
Thank you for the context. Yes Playing with Bossy it was a career year offensively for Sutter haha
Thanks, I saw the points tables in the other thread. I was curious specifically about goal-scoring and playmaking (if you have the data available - if not, no worries).At the time, I made some best 3, 6, 10 seasons, for points:
Not consecutive one too
What is the case for it being a negative aspect of Bossy's scoring? I'm not sure I understand the logic.
We know Bossy played about 30% of EV minutes and 70% of PP minutes. And he was the best offensive player on the Islanders on all situations.
And we know the Islanders' power play was a monster in the playoffs, scoring at nearly 30% and giving them a big edge over opponents.
Given those facts, what difference did it make if Bossy scored 38 or 48 or 58 of his 111 points on the power play? Usually if we say a player is "dependent" on the power play we're talking about a middle six forward who happens to have the skillset to get opportunity and points on his team's first unit. Not an all-time great scorer on an all-time great team.
What's more important than all this EV/PP stuff is understanding that Bossy played on a deep team that played a defensive style. And when they had the lead they lengthened the bench and played even more defensively, to the point of benching Bossy and Trottier in playoff blowouts.
In the 72 playoff games Bossy played from 1980-1983, the Islanders scored 340 goals. 167 of those goals were scored while the team was tied or trailing, and 173 of the goals were scored while they were already leading. And Bossy scored far more in the situations when the team was tied or trailing.
Of 167 Islander playoff goals scored tied or trailing, Bossy scored 36 goals (22% of team goals) and 67 points (40% of team goals).
Of 173 Islander playoff goals scored with the lead, Bossy scored 25 goals (14% of team goals) and 44 points (25% of team goals).
When Bossy's team needed him to score, he scored. When they needed him to defend, or skip some shifts to rest for the next game, he did that too. Could he have scored more if his coach sent him out for 25 minutes a game and gave him the green light to run up the score? I think it's pretty likely, at least until his body have out, but actually it doesn't matter. He was the offensive leader of a team that won 19 straight playoff series and four Stanley Cups, and that means a lot more than "dominating" individual scoring leaderboards.
And regarding Brett Hull, I've tracked ice time for a couple of his prime playoff games. I'll post full results if tables start working soon. But I'll say for now that Hull played about 34 minutes in Game 6 against Minnesota in 1991, including about 14 minutes in the third period. He got the Florida Pavel Bure usage plan. Largely because the Blues had nuked their forward depth during the 90-91 season and decided to put Hull and Oates out together as much as possible.
That in itself doesn't reflect poorly on Hull. He was by far their best hope to score goals. But it's clear that the game plan and expectations Brian Sutter had for Hull in that game were very different than the game plan and expectations that Al Arbour ever had for Mike Bossy.
That in itself doesn't reflect poorly on Hull. He was by far their best hope to score goals. But it's clear that the game plan and expectations Brian Sutter had for Hull in that game were very different than the game plan and expectations that Al Arbour ever had for Mike Bossy.
A 14 minute period?!?! The only one I can readily find in my notes to match that is Bobby Orr's 14:30 2nd period in one of the games of the 1974 Final...and not that I'm an exhaustive note-holder in this regard, bur I wouldn't have guessed Brett Hull would be in that same tier at any point...
Finished it now, I'll post next week. It was actually about 12.5 minutes in the third, total of 32.5 minutes.
The way he got there is one I don't think I've seen. The Blues used 10 forwards. Hull and Oates played approximately 90 second shifts, with the LW changing halfway through and doing most of the skating. The second and third lines played approximately 45 second shifts.
So Hull was playing half the minutes and had about 7.5 minutes played with 5 minutes to go. At that point his legs appeared to be gone and he couldn't get any space from Stew Gavin's checking to get his shot off. And the Blues desperately needed to tie the game. So he played right defence for the last 5 minutes and didn't come off the ice. Not that he actually played defence or did anything but look to shoot.
Brian Sutter drew up a good play for Hull's goal. Offensive zone faceoff with 2:45 to play, and he pulled the goalie (apparently Patrick Roy wasn't the first to do the early pull). Oates took the draw. Hull was at the right point, Jeff Brown was on the left point, Dan Quinn and Dave Lowry on the wings, and Scott Stevens lined up beside Oates. When the puck dropped, Oates won it back to Hull. Stevens piled into the North Stars like an offensive tackle, clearing the front of the net, and Hull stepped into it and beat Casey cleanly.
Sutter sent out the same lineup for the same play a minute later, looking for the tying goal. This time Stew Gavin knew what was coming, raced to Hull from the inside position, picked the puck and would have scored the empty netter if Hull hadn't hooked him to the ice.
I should also mention that Hull was just under 20 minutes in the 1990 playoff game I tracked. There was a huge difference in forward depth between the two games. Sutter visibly didn't trust as many forwards in 1991, and Hull and Oates also played on separate lines in 1990. And Hull showed his speed a lot more in the 1990 game.
Bossy was the straw that stirred the drink offensively and he could do it with anyone. Even 2nd and 3rd liners. And he proved it in years Trottier was injured and relegated to lower lines. He could propeller lower line guys to superstar numbers
Bossy was also an excellent backbreaker
If anything he is underrated because he was teammates with Trottier and Potvin
It's a little like guys saying Lidstrom and peak Fedorov were much better than Yzerman and more key to the wings success. It doesn't jive to put Bossy down
It was a trifecta of success and he was just as important
This argument of yours is fiction
Bossy was also an excellent backbreaker
If anything he is underrated because he was teammates with Trottier and Potvin
It's a little like guys saying Lidstrom and peak Fedorov were much better than Yzerman and more key to the wings success. It doesn't jive to put Bossy down
It was a trifecta of success and he was just as important
Bossy scored near equally with checking line Sutter and career 2nd liner Tonelli as his linemates while Trottier was recovering from knee surgery.
This argument of yours is fiction
I watched two Brett Hull playoff games and tracked his ice time.
April 22, 1990, Game 3 of division final series between St Louis Blues and Chicago Blackhawks.
April 28, 1991, Game 6 of division final series between St Louis Blues and Minnesota North Stars.
April 22, 1990,
Hull played 18:59 in this game. He played about every third shift at even strength, almost every minute on the power play, and didn't kill any penalties.
His regular EV linemates were Sergio Momesso at LW and Peter Zezel at C. The regular second line was Brind'Amour-Oates-MacLean, and the regular third line was Lowry-Meagher-Rich Sutter.
The fourth line to start was Gino Cavallini, Ron Wilson, and Kelly Chase. Chase got injured on his second shift late in the first period and left the game, but he was the 12th forward so not a big difference. Rick Meagher got injured halfway through the second, which put him out for the playoffs, and Ron Wilson moved up to centre the third line. After Sergio Momesso took a misconduct in the third period, the Blues only had 9 forwards left for the last 8 minutes. Even under these circumstances, Brian Sutter never stopped using three lines at EV.
The Lowry-Meagher-Rich Sutter line, later Lowry-Wilson-Rich Sutter, was used to check the Savard-Larmer line for Chicago
Here's the TOI for the St Louis forwards in this game. Adam Oates took on the second unit PK after Meagher's injury which put him at #1 among forwards.
Hull scored 2 goals and 2 assists in this game.
Assist #1 - on the opening shift of the game, Dave Manson fell down retrieving a puck in his end. Hull retrieved the puck and whipped a pass from the boards to Peter Zezel in front. Zezel's shot produced a rebound on which Sergio Momesso scored.
Goal #1 - power play goal. Hull lined up just behind Oates on the offensive zone faceoff. Oates won it back to Hull who one-timed it and scored.
Assist #2 - power play assist. Hull was the right hand man on a 3-on-2. Received and returned a quick pass from Brind'Amour entering the zone, who then set up Jeff Brown on the left for a one-timer.
Goal #2 - tying goal with less than 5 minutes left. Hull carried the puck into the zone and blasted a slapshot that just missed. The puck works its way around to Gordie Roberts at the left point, who shoots on goal with Hull and one other Blue forward working to get position in front. Hull tipped it for a goal.
Here's a play where Hull showed his speed driving the net against Bob Murray. The announcers noted that Murray, a veteran RHS defenceman who rarely played the left side during his career, had moved to left defence to match up against Hull.
April 28, 1991
Hull played 32:21 in this game. He played about half the game at even strength, most of the power play, and didn't kill any penalties.
His regular centre was Adam Oates, who played 30:46 of ice time. They played with all four LW at different times - Dave Thomlinson, Gino Cavallini, Rod Brind'Amour, and Dave Lowry, roughly in that order. Hull and Oates played so much that they rarely skated with any speed through the neutral zone, noticeably less than in the 1990 game. So they usually had one LW play the first half of their shift and another play the second half, and this LW would skate hard through the neutral zone, forecheck and backcheck hard, fight for the puck, basically everything that Hull and Oates weren't doing because they were playing half the game. It worked OK with Cavallini and Brind'Amour, who had size and speed. Not well at all with Thomlinson, who was too slow to be effective in this role.
Hull and Oates were overplayed in this game and often ineffective, with the North Stars clogging up the neutral zone and shutting them completely down in transition. They both looked a lot better in the 1990 game playing 20 minutes/game on separate lines.
The Blues lack of forward depth was visible in this game. Dave Thomlinson and Steve Tuttle played way too much for two guys who looked like minor leaguers. Dan Quinn and Ron Brind'Amour were a decent duo on the second line, and Quinn was easily the most effective St Louis forward at carrying the puck through the neutral zone, but Sutter kept coming back to Oates and Hull. It seemed to be his only answer.
Hull's 5:15 shift to close the game was something else. His legs were gone and the 1-2 punch of LWs Stew Gavin and Gaetan Duchesne were constantly tying him up and taking away his space. So they put him out at right defence just to give him room to get his shot off, and they didn't take him off for the rest of the game.
Most of the game was played with the score 0-0 and very few penalties. Hull scored a goal and an assist, both in the third period.
Hull's goal - Goalie pulled, offensive zone faceoff, Oates won it back to Hull, Scott Stevens cleared the North Stars out of the way, and Hull sniped it past Casey.
Brett Hull rush, Stew Gavin checked him.
Hull hooked Curt Giles down, no penalty.
Hull picked the puck for a scoring chance. Jon Casey waited him out and stopped the deke.
Hull stole the puck at his blue line and rushed down the right side. Neal Broten got back and knocked the puck away.
Hull wound up just outside the blueline and blasted a slap shot past Casey and off the post.
Replay shows Stew Gavin checking Brett Hull, not even facing the puck, just facing Hull and basically wrestling him with his free hand.
Overall? Hull basically played Bossy-type ice time in the 1990 playoff game, except he played almost every power play minute where Bossy usually played about 2/3 of the power play. And then in the 1991 playoff game, Hull played Florida Pavel Bure-type ice time.
If Hull did indeed play significantly more ice time in the 1990-91 season than in 1989-90 - not just after the Blues traded away their whole second line at the trade deadline - I'm more impressed with his 89-90 season than I was. Remember that he played with Zezel, not Oates, as his centre in 89-90. Even on the power play, Oates played the right point and Zezel played C in the game I tracked. It was the 1991 game where Hull and Oates played almost all their minutes together.
April 22, 1990, Game 3 of division final series between St Louis Blues and Chicago Blackhawks.
April 28, 1991, Game 6 of division final series between St Louis Blues and Minnesota North Stars.
April 22, 1990,
Hull played 18:59 in this game. He played about every third shift at even strength, almost every minute on the power play, and didn't kill any penalties.
His regular EV linemates were Sergio Momesso at LW and Peter Zezel at C. The regular second line was Brind'Amour-Oates-MacLean, and the regular third line was Lowry-Meagher-Rich Sutter.
The fourth line to start was Gino Cavallini, Ron Wilson, and Kelly Chase. Chase got injured on his second shift late in the first period and left the game, but he was the 12th forward so not a big difference. Rick Meagher got injured halfway through the second, which put him out for the playoffs, and Ron Wilson moved up to centre the third line. After Sergio Momesso took a misconduct in the third period, the Blues only had 9 forwards left for the last 8 minutes. Even under these circumstances, Brian Sutter never stopped using three lines at EV.
The Lowry-Meagher-Rich Sutter line, later Lowry-Wilson-Rich Sutter, was used to check the Savard-Larmer line for Chicago
Here's the TOI for the St Louis forwards in this game. Adam Oates took on the second unit PK after Meagher's injury which put him at #1 among forwards.
Hull scored 2 goals and 2 assists in this game.
Assist #1 - on the opening shift of the game, Dave Manson fell down retrieving a puck in his end. Hull retrieved the puck and whipped a pass from the boards to Peter Zezel in front. Zezel's shot produced a rebound on which Sergio Momesso scored.
Goal #1 - power play goal. Hull lined up just behind Oates on the offensive zone faceoff. Oates won it back to Hull who one-timed it and scored.
Assist #2 - power play assist. Hull was the right hand man on a 3-on-2. Received and returned a quick pass from Brind'Amour entering the zone, who then set up Jeff Brown on the left for a one-timer.
Goal #2 - tying goal with less than 5 minutes left. Hull carried the puck into the zone and blasted a slapshot that just missed. The puck works its way around to Gordie Roberts at the left point, who shoots on goal with Hull and one other Blue forward working to get position in front. Hull tipped it for a goal.
Here's a play where Hull showed his speed driving the net against Bob Murray. The announcers noted that Murray, a veteran RHS defenceman who rarely played the left side during his career, had moved to left defence to match up against Hull.
April 28, 1991
Hull played 32:21 in this game. He played about half the game at even strength, most of the power play, and didn't kill any penalties.
His regular centre was Adam Oates, who played 30:46 of ice time. They played with all four LW at different times - Dave Thomlinson, Gino Cavallini, Rod Brind'Amour, and Dave Lowry, roughly in that order. Hull and Oates played so much that they rarely skated with any speed through the neutral zone, noticeably less than in the 1990 game. So they usually had one LW play the first half of their shift and another play the second half, and this LW would skate hard through the neutral zone, forecheck and backcheck hard, fight for the puck, basically everything that Hull and Oates weren't doing because they were playing half the game. It worked OK with Cavallini and Brind'Amour, who had size and speed. Not well at all with Thomlinson, who was too slow to be effective in this role.
Hull and Oates were overplayed in this game and often ineffective, with the North Stars clogging up the neutral zone and shutting them completely down in transition. They both looked a lot better in the 1990 game playing 20 minutes/game on separate lines.
The Blues lack of forward depth was visible in this game. Dave Thomlinson and Steve Tuttle played way too much for two guys who looked like minor leaguers. Dan Quinn and Ron Brind'Amour were a decent duo on the second line, and Quinn was easily the most effective St Louis forward at carrying the puck through the neutral zone, but Sutter kept coming back to Oates and Hull. It seemed to be his only answer.
Hull's 5:15 shift to close the game was something else. His legs were gone and the 1-2 punch of LWs Stew Gavin and Gaetan Duchesne were constantly tying him up and taking away his space. So they put him out at right defence just to give him room to get his shot off, and they didn't take him off for the rest of the game.
Most of the game was played with the score 0-0 and very few penalties. Hull scored a goal and an assist, both in the third period.
Hull's goal - Goalie pulled, offensive zone faceoff, Oates won it back to Hull, Scott Stevens cleared the North Stars out of the way, and Hull sniped it past Casey.
Brett Hull rush, Stew Gavin checked him.
Hull hooked Curt Giles down, no penalty.
Hull picked the puck for a scoring chance. Jon Casey waited him out and stopped the deke.
Hull stole the puck at his blue line and rushed down the right side. Neal Broten got back and knocked the puck away.
Hull wound up just outside the blueline and blasted a slap shot past Casey and off the post.
Replay shows Stew Gavin checking Brett Hull, not even facing the puck, just facing Hull and basically wrestling him with his free hand.
Overall? Hull basically played Bossy-type ice time in the 1990 playoff game, except he played almost every power play minute where Bossy usually played about 2/3 of the power play. And then in the 1991 playoff game, Hull played Florida Pavel Bure-type ice time.
If Hull did indeed play significantly more ice time in the 1990-91 season than in 1989-90 - not just after the Blues traded away their whole second line at the trade deadline - I'm more impressed with his 89-90 season than I was. Remember that he played with Zezel, not Oates, as his centre in 89-90. Even on the power play, Oates played the right point and Zezel played C in the game I tracked. It was the 1991 game where Hull and Oates played almost all their minutes together.
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Not to distract from all this, but as someone that has tracked shifts and ice time many times before, how on earth are you doing it for all players?!?! Even if it's just Blues forwards, that's several runs through the whole game, no? That would take me at least all day...
