Bossy vs. Brett Hull
- Thread starter Sentinel
- Start date
-
HFBoards is doing server maintenance Thursday March 13th at 9 AM GMT 5 AM EDT. Downtime is to be expected during the process. Server changes were implemented recently to cope with the traffic surge last week. This seems to be affecting the user login, so please anyone experiencing this, log out and clear the browser cache. We expect to have this issue solved once the maintenance is complete.
overpass
Registered User
Power play dependent or power play dominant?
The Islanders had maybe the best power play of all time, and it was a big factor in their playoff success. Bossy was regularly called out by opponents and media as the most dangerous weapon on their power play and the player opponents tried to shut down. He was one of the most valuable PP players ever.
Staniowski
Registered User
Al Arbour used to say he would often have a goal of matching other teams at even-strength, and then they could usually win with their special teams.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Yeah, style of play and team tactics are largely getting ignored or misunderstood here I think. Said another way, those are "facts" not being considered...
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,646
- 16,478
Are you able to show best goal-scoring and/or playmaking primes (best 5 or 10 years)?The way I did it was the following:
I took the average Canadian nhl elite scorer, the number change over time, it was calibrated using canadian nhl age male population and to happen to use the top 18 players in 1967 (the last 06 year so around the average first line at that time)
1986-1990 was using the top 32 Canadian in the league and was under that adjusting judged to be the deepest pool of Canadians players.
Trying to take a large amount to remove season to season noise but elite enough to capture how hard it was for people in the best position (ice time wise, PP, assignment) and good at it to score.
Canadian only felt like a way to have a more constant pool of competitor over time when the league opened up versus before, adjusting for Canadian level of competition is impossible, using Canada born nhl age male population being a bad proxy, but the best available.
overpass
Registered User
Since scoring as a percentage of team goals was brought up, here's Bossy on the power play for his career, excluding his injury-plagued final season.
Bossy was on the ice for 477 team goals.
Scored 172 G (36%), 175 A (37%), 347 P (73%)
Those numbers are absolutely elite. 36% is comparable to Alex Ovechkin as a goal scorer. 73% is comparable to Gretzky and Lemieux as a point scorer. And that's relative to his team, which was the best of it's era on the power play.
Ovechkin was similar to Bossy as a shooter from the left circle on the best PP of his era, and the best PP goal scorer of his era. But he only scored a point on around 60% of on-ice PP goals. Bossy was much more involved as a playmaker while matching him as a goal scorer.
Bossy was on the ice for 477 team goals.
Scored 172 G (36%), 175 A (37%), 347 P (73%)
Those numbers are absolutely elite. 36% is comparable to Alex Ovechkin as a goal scorer. 73% is comparable to Gretzky and Lemieux as a point scorer. And that's relative to his team, which was the best of it's era on the power play.
Ovechkin was similar to Bossy as a shooter from the left circle on the best PP of his era, and the best PP goal scorer of his era. But he only scored a point on around 60% of on-ice PP goals. Bossy was much more involved as a playmaker while matching him as a goal scorer.
Last edited:
MadLuke
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2011
- 11,208
- 6,674
At the time, I made some best 3, 6, 10 seasons, for points:
Not consecutive one too
I guess it depends on whether or not you want to cast it as a positive or negative aspect of Bossy's scoring.
For his career, he had 739 ESP in 752 games (385 EVG/354 EVA), and 378 PPP (180 PPG/198 PPA), per game averages of 0.98 EVP and 0.50 PPP.
In the playoffs, in 129 games he had 84 ESP and 76 PPP, per game averages to 0.65 EVP and 0.59 PPP.
Absent Round 1, in 89 games he had 52 ESP and 62 PPP, per game averages of 0.58 EVP and 0.70 PPP.
If you just look at the four dynasty years, the Islanders averaged 4.134 goals per game in the regular season, and 4.666 in the playoffs. Here's a table broken down by strength:
| Games | Goals For | EV | PP | SH | GF/G | EV/G | PP/G | SH/G | |
| Regular | 320 | 1323 | 968 | 303 | 52 | 4.134 | 3.025 | 0.947 | 0.163 |
| Reg Per 80 | 80 | 331 | 242 | 76 | 13 | ||||
| Playoff | 78 | 364 | 242 | 99 | 23 | 4.667 | 3.103 | 1.269 | 0.295 |
| PO Per 80 | 80 | 373 | 248 | 102 | 23 |
In those years, Bossy had 312 ESP and 162 PPP in 313 games (0.996 and 0.517 per game, respectively, very close to his career averages), and 53 ESP and 58 PPP in 72 games in the playoffs (0.736 and 0.805 per game). He averaged about the same PPG, his mix was just different. As you can see from the per-80 numbers, the extra goals for the Islanders come from special teams, not so much even strength (depending on rounding its either 102 PPG and 23 SHG, or 101 PPG and 24 SHG, for 25-26 extra PPG and 10-11 extra SHG, compared to 6 extra EVG).
To give a series example, in the 79-80 finals against Philadelphia, the Islanders were outscored 10-19 at even strength in the series, but scored 15 power play goals in 6 games (they also had a shorthanded goal, to Philadelphia's 6 power play goals). Bossy had 1 even strength assist and 10 power play points (4 PPG/6 PPA) to lead the Islanders in scoring with 11 points. Is that a disappointing series because Bossy only had 1 even strength point in 6 games, or a good one because his 10 power play points contributed to the Islanders winning in 6 games?
Another example is the entire 80-81 run. In the first round against an awful Toronto team (-45 goal differential), the Islanders outscored them 20-4 in 3 games, Bossy had 10 points, 6 even stength, 4 power play. In the second round against Edmonton (+1 goal differential), the Islanders outscored Edmonton 29-20, including 14-11 at even strength, and also scored 13 power play goals in 6 games, with 2 shorthanded goals. Bossy had 2 even strength goals, 2 power play goals, and 7 power play assists. In the third round against the Rangers (-5 goal differential), the Islanders outscored them 22-8 in the sweep, Bossy had 1 even strength goal, 4 power play goals, and 1 power play assist. In the finals against Minnesota (+28), the Islanders outscored them 26-16, including 19-10 at even strength. Bossy had 3 even strength goals, 3 even strength assists, 1 power play goal and 1 power play assist. Was Bossy an even strength powerhouse due to scoring 12 ESP in 8 games against Toronto and Minnesota, or a disappointment because he had 3 ESP in 10 games against Edmonton and New York?
Sentinel
Registered User
Bossy depended on Trottier as much as Hull depended on Oates. Bossy never stopped scoring but his highs are a full tier below Hull's highs.
The only claim Bossy has over Hull is his insane three straight 17 goal playoffs but Hull is no slouch himself in this area, being the highest-scoring non-Oiler in history.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
New York Islanders 1984-85 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com
The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1984-85 New York Islanders playing in the NHL.
www.hockeydb.com
Trottier was injured that year and Bossy played most of the year with Brent Sutter. Still paced 60 goals.
Please explain that.
Salsa Shark
Registered User
Is that true? Sutter played 72 games, Trottier 68. Looks like Trottier missed mid oct-mid November.
Staniowski
Registered User
Trottier was injured at the start of the season, he played mostly with Bossy for a while when he returned, then Bossy played mostly with Sutter again. So Bossy was with Sutter and Tonelli for the bulk of the season. But he did play with Trottier some of the time.
It is believed that Trottier was playing with a nagging injury for most the season after returning.
Meanwhile, Bossy, Sutter, and Tonelli had played as a line during the Canada Cup and were great together. They got off to a scorching start to the season.
Despite Bossy's success with Sutter that season, he and Trottier always preferred playing together, and so were back together the next season.
Salsa Shark
Registered User
Thank you for the context. Yes Playing with Bossy it was a career year offensively for Sutter haha
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,646
- 16,478
Thanks, I saw the points tables in the other thread. I was curious specifically about goal-scoring and playmaking (if you have the data available - if not, no worries).At the time, I made some best 3, 6, 10 seasons, for points:
Not consecutive one too
overpass
Registered User
What is the case for it being a negative aspect of Bossy's scoring? I'm not sure I understand the logic.
We know Bossy played about 30% of EV minutes and 70% of PP minutes. And he was the best offensive player on the Islanders on all situations.
And we know the Islanders' power play was a monster in the playoffs, scoring at nearly 30% and giving them a big edge over opponents.
Given those facts, what difference did it make if Bossy scored 38 or 48 or 58 of his 111 points on the power play? Usually if we say a player is "dependent" on the power play we're talking about a middle six forward who happens to have the skillset to get opportunity and points on his team's first unit. Not an all-time great scorer on an all-time great team.
What's more important than all this EV/PP stuff is understanding that Bossy played on a deep team that played a defensive style. And when they had the lead they lengthened the bench and played even more defensively, to the point of benching Bossy and Trottier in playoff blowouts.
In the 72 playoff games Bossy played from 1980-1983, the Islanders scored 340 goals. 167 of those goals were scored while the team was tied or trailing, and 173 of the goals were scored while they were already leading. And Bossy scored far more in the situations when the team was tied or trailing.
Of 167 Islander playoff goals scored tied or trailing, Bossy scored 36 goals (22% of team goals) and 67 points (40% of team goals).
Of 173 Islander playoff goals scored with the lead, Bossy scored 25 goals (14% of team goals) and 44 points (25% of team goals).
When Bossy's team needed him to score, he scored. When they needed him to defend, or skip some shifts to rest for the next game, he did that too. Could he have scored more if his coach sent him out for 25 minutes a game and gave him the green light to run up the score? I think it's pretty likely, at least until his body have out, but actually it doesn't matter. He was the offensive leader of a team that won 19 straight playoff series and four Stanley Cups, and that means a lot more than "dominating" individual scoring leaderboards.
overpass
Registered User
And regarding Brett Hull, I've tracked ice time for a couple of his prime playoff games. I'll post full results if tables start working soon. But I'll say for now that Hull played about 34 minutes in Game 6 against Minnesota in 1991, including about 14 minutes in the third period. He got the Florida Pavel Bure usage plan. Largely because the Blues had nuked their forward depth during the 90-91 season and decided to put Hull and Oates out together as much as possible.
That in itself doesn't reflect poorly on Hull. He was by far their best hope to score goals. But it's clear that the game plan and expectations Brian Sutter had for Hull in that game were very different than the game plan and expectations that Al Arbour ever had for Mike Bossy.
That in itself doesn't reflect poorly on Hull. He was by far their best hope to score goals. But it's clear that the game plan and expectations Brian Sutter had for Hull in that game were very different than the game plan and expectations that Al Arbour ever had for Mike Bossy.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
A 14 minute period?!?! The only one I can readily find in my notes to match that is Bobby Orr's 14:30 2nd period in one of the games of the 1974 Final...and not that I'm an exhaustive note-holder in this regard, bur I wouldn't have guessed Brett Hull would be in that same tier at any point...
Latest posts
-
LD Lane Hutson - Montreal Canadiens, NHL (2022, 62nd, MTL) - Part 2- Latest: Star Platinum
-
