Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
In other words, "I'd take Dave Andreychuk as a goal scorer over Bobby Hull". Binary world, for all your binary needs haha
Bossy vs. Brett Hull
- Thread starter Sentinel
- Start date
overpass
Registered User
Pretty sure Bossy dominated as much as Hull did if you watch the games.
If you're playing fantasy hockey and only looking at the individual stats, sure, Hull dominated more.
Sentinel
Registered User
tabness
be a playa 🇵🇸
- Apr 4, 2014
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I do wish more people would watch Brett Hull play in the early nineties, and see how dominant he was, feels like the "one trick pony" stereotype would go away real quick.
May be surprising to some with the general idea of Brett Hull now, but from his Hockey Scouting Report entry after 1991-1992:
"Hull is an awesome combination of foot speed, hand skills, power and intimidation - a player that comes along only once or twice in a generation."
"Hull has had to fine-tune his game because of the checking attention he merits. ... Hull scores more goals from being in the front of the net and from rebounds, ..."
"Hull loves to shoot, but isn't selfish. When the better option is a pass, he will deliver a pinpoint one. He has excellent hands and hockey sense."
"Hull is a power forward ... He has a burly build, is strong and balanced on his skates so he is hard to budge, ... Over, under, around and through - whatever route he has to take to the net, Hull will. He is a classy player who absorbs punishment without whining."
"If the Blues could get just one more line to click, he would get even more of a chance to shine. The glare could be blinding."
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The Panther
Registered User
Opinions are interesting, eh? We have some posters saying Bossy was a better scorer than Gretzky in the playoffs, and other posters saying that Bossy wasn't even close to as dominant as Brett Hull in the playoffs.
Mike Bossy peaked at 147 points, and x3 17 goal postseason campaigns in a row.
Underrating Bossy is historical revisionism equivalent to begging for attention. No one underrated him while he played. He scored 60 goals a year while being a legitimate playmaking threat, and being responsible defensively.
Nothing else matters, it's just a coping mechanism.
Bossy was also better than Bure.
Frank Cannon PI
I'm a PI when I'm not busy baking spinach soufflé.
We also have a poster who doesn't think it's okay for Gretzky and Bobby Orr to decide for themselves, while the same person was willing to overlook Bobby Hull's off-ice stuff. Fascinating...
I remember watching some of Hull’s Blues highlights recently and being surprised how fast he was and how good his hands were, which shouldn’t be surprising for someone with arguably the best goal scoring peak of all-time.
BM67
Registered User
Hull's 86, 72, 70 is great, but his next best in 57. Meanwhile Bossy has 69, 68, 64, 61, 60 and 58 goal seasons.
Hull lead the league in goals 3 times to Bossy's twice, but he was 2nd once and then he drops to 6th or lower. Bossy was 1st twice, 2nd three times, 3rd twice and 5th once.
Hull lead the league in goals 3 times to Bossy's twice, but he was 2nd once and then he drops to 6th or lower. Bossy was 1st twice, 2nd three times, 3rd twice and 5th once.
Sentinel
Registered User
Bossy never rose higher than the 3rd place in Hart votes. Hull WON (over Gretzky).
Bossy was often considered the third most important player on the Islanders.
Bossy never touched 70 goals. Hull, Gretzky, and Lemieux did it multiple times (and Esposito, Mogilny, and Selanne once).
I don't believe I am underrating Bossy. I am just fighting against his overrating.
Of course, Bossy was better than Bure. But he wasn't better than Ovy, Gretzky, Richard, Esposito, Lemieux, and both Hulls.
MadLuke
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2011
- 11,162
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That factual but Hull does not win it over Gretzky like he did if it was 200 pts era Gretzky (or if writer were not tired of giving it to him)
And if Bossy with the Ross instead of a far second to Gretzky, who knows how that shake up the vote. For bad reason, but still true, winning the Ross give you a leg up to winning the Hart and having a clear competitor better than you at what you do, give votes to someone that more different, i.e. if you are a scorer and someone scored more than you, your relative Hart result in the race versus a goaltender-defenseman can worse than this that better scorer did not exist.
Hart winning is a binary result and quite dependant not only on your competition but voters mind about your competition.
Speaking of binary, Bossy never touching 70 goals, trying to make a difference between scoring 68 and 69 goals in the 80 games season era sound like a big difference from scoring 70.
You just described exactly what someone underrating an historical player would think
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I just read through every Islanders playoff game across their 5 seasons for the goalie project.
Across the 5 seasons, Bossy was the most important Islander. Potvin was at the start, but not by the end. Trottier's star was much smaller than I expected.
If you had to give a trophy for dynasty MVP, hard to give it to someone except Bossy.
MadLuke
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2011
- 11,162
- 6,633
57 in 1994 was nearly winning the rocket (loosing to a great like Bure), that could be better than scoring 60 in 1983.
When I tried to do some "adjusting", 1991 Hull season ended up the most goals ever, Hull scored .77 adjusted goal per games during his long career to Bossy .83.
Best adjusted seasons:
fullName season AdjustedSeasonGoals
Brett Hull 19901991 101.1
Brett Hull 19911992 86.3
Mike Bossy 19781979 81.1
Brett Hull 19891990 78.1
Mike Bossy 19801981 71.9
In terms of ending a season with pucks in the net, Hull did it more, but top 6 seasons in adjusted points;
Bossy: 747
Hull.: 680
A bit of an issue with this thread is 2 conversation in parallel, who was the better player versus better goalscorer, when talking better player, Bossy was doing some non goalscoring element that can give him an edge.
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The Panther
Registered User
I didn't say this wasn't okay. Gretzky and Bobby Orr are free to decide for themselves --- and that's how it should be. And I'm free to think they're totally crazy for doing so.
In no way, shape, or form did I ever try to overlook Bobby Hull's off-ice stuff.
Please be accurate in trying to diss me. Making stuff up isn't helping you here.
It's funny that when I listen to player podcasts(I do A lot of driving for work so I listen to tons of podcasts on 1.5 speed). Bossy is universally praised by his opponents as being one of, if not the best goal scorer ever. Only on niche internet forums do random fans call him overrated.
As a pure goal scorer the only people on that list I would put at the same level as Bossy is Bobby Hull and Mario Lemieux.
As an overall offensive threat, obviously Gretzky was better. Probably Esposito as well.
Ovechkin definitely has him beat on longevity and durability, but he's also played most of his career in a low contact(also to be fair to him low scoring) league. Ovechkin also sacrifices his teams success, and his playmaking to score his goals. Something Bossy/Gretzky/Lemieux/Espo never did.
Staniowski
Registered User
Have you seen Bossy play? Most people who watched hime thought he was the best goal-scorer of his era. I'd say Krutov is the only player in the same ballpark from late '70s, early '80s.
Staniowski
Registered User
Yes, Bossy basically always scored the same. In the Q he scored almost the same all four seasons; pretty much scored the same all through his NHL career; and led his team in goal-scoring at all three best-on-best international events ( '79, '81, '84).
He was quite remarkable.
overpass
Registered User
Best 3 seasons for Brett Hull were clearly 1989-90 through 1991-92.
On-ice goals: Hull was on the ice for 43% of his team's EVGA, 86% of his team's PPGF, 3% of his team's PPGA.
Ice time estimates for Hull based on the above: 19.5 AEVTOI, 6.2 APPTOI, 0.3 ASHTOI, 25.9 ATOI.
Estimated EV scoring rates for Hull based on the above: 2.0 EVG/60, 2.9 EVP/60
Estimated PP scoring rates for Hull based on the above: 3.2 PPG/50, 5.4 PPP/60
For Bossy, his prime was remarkably consistent so I'm actually going to take his six seasons from 80-81 through 85-86.
On-ice goals: Bossy was on the ice for 31% of his team's EVGA, 70% of his team's PPGF, 7% of his team's PPGA.
Ice time estimates for Bossy based on the above: 14.6 AEVTOI, 4.1 APPTOI, 0.5 ASHTOI, 19.2 ATOI.
Estimated EV scoring rates for Bossy based on the above: 2.2 EVG/60, 4.5 EVP/60
Estimated PP scoring rates for Bossy based on the above: 3.4 PPG/50, 7.2 PPP/60
Bossy was slightly ahead of Hull in goal scoring rates at both EV and PP. After taking into account that Hull faced better defences and goaltenders in the early 90s, and that he maintained his rates over more minutes played than Bossy, I would lean toward Hull as a peak goal scorer. But over a time span of 7-8 years, Bossy looks better and better in the comparison.
Bossy was the superior playmaker in terms of putting up assists and points. At even strength, he posted assists at more than double the rate of peak Hull, and was 55% ahead in points per minute. On the power play, he had 74% more assists per minute and 33% more points per minute than peak Hull.
I don’t believe I’m underrating Bossy by stating Hull had the higher goal scoring peak. It is certainly closer than it appears due to their ice time though, and extending through their primes and considering their overall contributions Bossy is better.
Sentinel
Registered User
It blows my mind that someone who only led the league in goals twice can be ranked over someone who did it nine times. Whose adjusted peak numbers are incomparable. Even if we eliminate Gretzky, Bossy only gains one additional retro-Richard.
Being praised by your opponents is great but extremely subjective. The only player from my list who was not universally praised by his peers was Brett Hull.
I don't know what you mean by "sacrificing team's success." By all accounts, Ovechkin's team let him down a lot more than the other way around. Bossy played with four other HHOFers. Ovechkin may go down in history as the only Top20 player who never had a HHOF teammate (except pre-retirement Fedorov). He did way more with way less than Bossy.
We are not talking assists though. Just goals. And your disregard of Hart voting record is strange. Again: nobody ever thought Bossy was even a runner-up to Gretzky... whom Hull defeated (and I am not sure about "voters fatigue": Gretzky had not won in the previous year either).
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Sentinel
Registered User
Yes, I watched plenty of hockey in the 80s. And I rank Makarov squarely over Krutov.
Bossy is one of those players whose legend exceeds his real accomplishments.
The more I learn about Bossy, the more I think he is overrated. But let's compare him and Hull Jr. Bossy led the league in goals twice, Hull -- three times. Bossy never touched 70 goals, Hull -- three times, including 86 goals (#1 all time adjusted). Sure, Bossy's nine straight 50+ goal seasons is unsurpassed but Hull had five, then 29 in 48 GP (lockout), which prorates to 50 in 82, and then the DPE began (though 43 in 70 in 95-96 also prorates to 50).
So, peak: Hull >> Bossy
Prime: Hull > Bossy
Consistency: Hull <~ Bossy
Career: Hull by default because every goal he scored after 30 is more than Bossy.
Playoffs: Hull << Bossy (the only area where Bossy is clearly superior, although Hull led both Cup-winning teams in goals and even scored the golden goal in 99).
Teammates: Bossy played on a dynasty. Hull's peak was with Oates. So it's a wash.
As an overall player, Hull won the Hart, while Bossy never rose above a third place in votes.
Overall, I find that Bossy is not even a top 7 goalscorer of all time (Ovechkin, Gretzky, Hull Sr, Esposito, Lemieux, Richard, Howe, Hull Jr).
Now eat me up.
For goal-scorers, I have the following tiers:
Tier 1 - Ovechkin/Gretzky/Lemieux/Hull sr. Not necessarily in order, but if I had to place an order, I'd probably do it this way
Tier 2 - Richard/Howe. Same, not necessarily in order, but probably like this if so
Tier 3 is - Bossy/Esposito/Hull jr.
To me that is a very clear top 9 of all-time. I think Matthews is making tremendous strides towards already joining that top 9, and he could even be tier 1 one day - but for now, no one else is really close or on a path to surpass.
Coming back to tier 3 of Espo, Hull Jr and Bossy - I usually rank Bossy #1 in this group, but I could see it either/way. Here's how i'd compare Hull Jr to Bossy.
Bossy's playoff goal-scoring cannot be understated. I probably have Maurice Richard #1 all-time as greatest playoff goal-scorer, but Bossy has an argument for #2. Brett Hull is pretty strong here too, but it's still a big edge for Bossy.
prime - also tempted to go Bossy. He was much more consistant. 9 straight 50+ goal seasons, but five of those are also 60+. It's closer here, but I give a slight edge to Bossy.
Peak - I agree, Hull. Bossy has no season anywhere close to Hull's 86 goal season. Hull may even have the 2nd best season in 92.
Career - again, edge to Hull, since he played a lot longer.
I generally go Bossy > Hull, but I could see the opposite argument too.
overpass
Registered User
Voting on trophies is just voting by journalists, not something that actually happened on the ice. I don't care for the practice of saying the recipient of a trophy "won" the award. I'd rather reserve the word "win" for actual hockey games.
Awards are fine but let's not mistake them for actual hockey. There's something wrong if you start saying that Brett Hull "won" more or had more "success" than Mike Bossy.
Nobody on the Al Arbour Islanders was going to get a Hart trophy after 1979, because he spread out the ice time with an eye to playoff success. Bossy publicly said he wanted to play more minutes and have the opportunity to win scoring titles like Guy Lafleur, but Arbour made the call and they won four Stanley Cups. Actually won them on the ice, not by a vote of journalists.
I realize much of the hockey world refers to award recipients as winners, and it's not just you, but you're loading the word WON with a lot of weight that doesn't seem very meaningful in the context of awards voting.
Staniowski
Registered User
I don't agree that Bossy is overrated. He was an unusual and unique player, though, so I understand people have different opinions of him.
I think Krutov was a bit better goal-scorer than Makarov. But Makarov was excellent also.
Makarov was a better stick handler, and deker as it relates to goalscoring. Extremely dangerous one-on-one with the goalie. Also softer hands than Krutov, and smarter all-around.
Krutov had a more powerful shot, good shooter in general, was more of a natural goal-scorer, and was very hungry and quick in close, and a great shooter in stride.
Two beautiful talents.
