Bossy vs. Brett Hull

[Sentinel]

For goal-scorers, I have the following tiers:

Tier 1 - Ovechkin/Gretzky/Lemieux/Hull sr. Not necessarily in order, but if I had to place an order, I'd probably do it this way

Tier 2 - Richard/Howe. Same, not necessarily in order, but probably like this if so

Tier 3 is - Bossy/Esposito/Hull jr.

To me that is a very clear top 9 of all-time. I think Matthews is making tremendous strides towards already joining that top 9, and he could even be tier 1 one day - but for now, no one else is really close or on a path to surpass.

Coming back to tier 3 of Espo, Hull Jr and Bossy - I usually rank Bossy #1 in this group, but I could see it either/way. Here's how i'd compare Hull Jr to Bossy.

Bossy's playoff goal-scoring cannot be understated. I probably have Maurice Richard #1 all-time as greatest playoff goal-scorer, but Bossy has an argument for #2. Brett Hull is pretty strong here too, but it's still a big edge for Bossy.

prime - also tempted to go Bossy. He was much more consistant. 9 straight 50+ goal seasons, but five of those are also 60+. It's closer here, but I give a slight edge to Bossy.

Peak - I agree, Hull. Bossy has no season anywhere close to Hull's 86 goal season. Hull may even have the 2nd best season in 92.

Career - again, edge to Hull, since he played a lot longer.

I generally go Bossy > Hull, but I could see the opposite argument too.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. I put Esposito in the Tier 2 though: he has the peak and the consistency that are every bit as good as Howe and Richard. I rank Hull Jr just slightly over Bossy but it's close. At any rate, as long as you put them both in Tier 3, I am cool with that.

 

[Sentinel]

Voting on trophies is just voting by journalists, not something that actually happened on the ice. I don't care for the practice of saying the recipient of a trophy "won" the award. I'd rather reserve the word "win" for actual hockey games.

Awards are fine but let's not mistake them for actual hockey. There's something wrong if you start saying that Brett Hull "won" more or had more "success" than Mike Bossy.

Nobody on the Al Arbour Islanders was going to get a Hart trophy after 1979, because he spread out the ice time with an eye to playoff success. Bossy publicly said he wanted to play more minutes and have the opportunity to win scoring titles like Guy Lafleur, but Arbour made the call and they won four Stanley Cups. Actually won them on the ice, not by a vote of journalists.

I realize much of the hockey world refers to award recipients as winners, and it's not just you, but you're loading the word WON with a lot of weight that doesn't seem very meaningful in the context of awards voting.

You can assign whatever semantical baggage you choose to this word. To the rest of the world, Hart is the most meaningful individual trophy and it's won. Nobody on Al Arbour's Islanders won the Hart after 1979 for a very different reason: Gretzky arrived. But Trottier actually got a second place and Bossy only third is a good indication of their relative value to the team as seen by their contemporaries.

Of course Bossy was a very special player. But he never reached the same heights that numerous players before and after him did. And, as such, he does not belong in the same tier as others that I mentioned.

 

[Namba 17]

Regular season:

Hart:
Hull: 1 (Gretzky, Belfour), 3 (Messier, Bourque), 3 (Messier, Roy), 6, 23
Bossy: 3 (Gretzky, Trottier), 4 (Gretzky, Liut, Dionne), 6, 6, 7, 11

Note.
All Hull's Harts finals his center was not even in the list. The same for his 6th finish
For Bossy Hart final (3d total) Trottier was 2nd, for 4th Trottier was 5th, for 6th Trottier was 3d, for 7th Trottier was 1st.
For 11th Bossy's finish there were two his linemates in he list - both 15th and for another 6th finish Bossy's center was not in the list.

All Stars
Hull: 1 (Neely, Leeman), 1 (Neely, Fleury), 1 (Recchi, Mullen), 3 (Bure, Neely), 3 (Jagr, Fleury), 7, 8, 8, 9, 16
Bossy: 1 (Taylor, Babich), 1 (Middleton, Ciccarelly), 1 (MsDonald, Middleton), 1 (Kurri, Middleton), 1 (Kurri, Kerr), 2 (Lafleur, O'Rielly) 2 (Lafleur, MacMillan), 2 (Kurri, Kerr), 3 (Lafleur, Gare), 7

Goals
Hull: 1 (Yzerman, Bellows, Neely), 1 (Fleury, Neely, Yzerman), 1 (Stevens, Roberts, Roenick), 2 (Bure, Fedorov), 6 (Bondra, Jagr, Nolan, Sheppard, Zhamnov, Fleury), 8, 9, 10
Bossy: 1 (Dionne, Lafleur), 1 (Dionne, Simmer), 2 (Lafleur, Shutt), 2 (Gretzky, Maruk), 2 (Kurri, Kerr), 3 (Gretzky, McDonald), 3 (Gretzky, Kurri), 5 (Simmer, Stoughton, Gare, Dionne), 7

Note
Using my method of estimation (correspondense between goals, scored by player and average goals, scored by every player, who scored in given season with coefficient of amount of teams in the league) we have for their 1st finishes (first number is place in list of the best goalscorers for 46/47 - 23/24 season):

1. Hull 786.59
14. Bossy 685.36
19. Hull 648.01
31 Hull 605.76
68 Bossy 522.45

Being the best goal-scorers of their teams they scored average of team goals:
Hull 19,97%
Bossy 17,58%

In their seasons when they were #1 goalscorers in the league:
Hull
27.74
25.08
24.41

Bossy
19.27
19.15

By ratio between % of player/ team and team/league of their #1 goalscoring seasons:
Hull 550.41
Hull 519.45
Hull 512.11 (all numbers are top-3 for 21 team period of the NHL)
Bossy 348.31 (#8 in 21 team period)
Bossy 256.05 (top-1 for 16-18 team period)

Assists
Hull No top-10 finishes
Bossy 4, 6, 9

Points
Hull 2, 4, 5
Bossy 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6

 

[authentic]

You can assign whatever semantical baggage you choose to this word. To the rest of the world, Hart is the most meaningful individual trophy and it's won. Nobody on Al Arbour's Islanders won the Hart after 1979 for a very different reason: Gretzky arrived. But Trottier actually got a second place and Bossy only third is a good indication of their relative value to the team as seen by their contemporaries.

Of course Bossy was a very special player. But he never reached the same heights that numerous players before and after him did. And, as such, he does not belong in the same tier as others that I mentioned.

I don’t know, seeing those ice time estimates sort of puts into perspective why he’s so highly thought of beyond all the playoff heroics and raw numbers. If he had 5 more minutes a game and a couple extra on the PP he could’ve been a 5 time 70-80 goal scorer.

 

[Sentinel]

I don’t know, seeing those ice time estimates sort of puts into perspective why he’s so highly thought of beyond all the playoff heroics and raw numbers. If he had 5 more minutes a game and a couple extra on the PP he could’ve been a 5 time 70-80 goal scorer.

"If"... "could"...
Hypotheticals again.

It really boils down to which you value more: peak or consistency.

As long as we all agree, Bossy is not in the Top 5 goalscorers of all time.

P.S. I do find it informative that Bossy repeatedly lost the Hart race to a teammate. Hull (and Gretzky, and Ovechkin, and Lemieux, and Howe) never did.

 

[authentic]

"If"... "could"...
Hypotheticals again.

It really boils down to which you value more: peak or consistency.

As long as we all agree, Bossy is not in the Top 5 goalscorers of all time.

P.S. I do find it informative that Bossy repeatedly lost the Hart race to a teammate. Hull (and Gretzky, and Ovechkin, and Lemieux, and Howe) never did.

I’ve been watching hockey long enough not to judge players by this limited criteria though