Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

[Bondurant]

In terms of his legacy, I wonder if in 20 years we'll look at Bobby Hull the way we look at Ty Cobb. Marvelously talented as a hockey player, but the things he did off the ice - the violence towards his wives is irrefutable - is worth maybe not celebrating the guy too much.

Forgive me if this was already mentioned (I don't have an interest in scrolling through this massive thread page by page) but most of what you think you know about Cobb was fabricated nonsense by a documented liar, Al Stump. Charlie Leerhsen wrote a great Cobb bio some years back. He had the novel idea of actually researching his subject.

 

[CDJ]

Bobby Hull was basically Mickey Mantle in the NHL. Muscular, the fans loved him, bigger than life, blond hair, big smile, good with the fans and could lift you out of your seat with how he played. Also played in an era where the media had an interest in keeping things focused on the game and not their private life. Was that better? Yeah I think so. We've swung the pendulum the other way too much where we demand our sports stars fall in line with mainstream politics and we shame them for it if we don't think they do (eg. the way people talk about Ovechkin). Sports is an escape from that stuff, and few could do that better than Bobby Hull.

He also ought to be credited more than anyone with NHLers getting paid their market value. In 1972 while Hull was not able to play in the Summit Series he was given free tickets by Wayne Cashman I believe for one of the games. When Hull asked what he owed him Cashman said "Nothing. My salary tripled because of you!" Hull bolting to the WHA did this. This was a 50 goal scorer at the time doing this, a larger than life figure in the NHL. It wouldn't be ignored. And I don't think he gets enough credit for it.

Hull would sign every single autograph even if it meant he had to keep the team bus waiting. Regardless of his personal life, the guy shelled out for the fans perhaps as much as anyone ever has. I've read the tributes about him. It is one thing to read what is said on a message board, it is another thing to hear Hedberg or Nilsson or people that knew him well talk about him. There is a lot of nice things said about him. Maybe people don't like that, but oh well.

Now...........was there a side to Hull that was different from the rink? Yes I believe there was. I'm not denying that and I hope he made some peace with things in his private life. But my goodness, the guy's body is still warm and people are bringing out the "Hitler" comment, which I can still show you a Hockey News magazine from 1997 where that seemed like a debunked quote. I mean, can't we just appreciate the guy for his playing ability? We didn't know him off the ice. I know Brett and him had, what I would think sounded like a complicated relationship, would he have even made the NHL or gotten interest in the game without the old man?

Lmao


No. Excusing domestic assault is maybe fine by you, it’s not for me

 

[Big Phil]

Lmao


No. Excusing domestic assault is maybe fine by you, it’s not for me

No one is excusing it.

Forgive me if this was already mentioned (I don't have an interest in scrolling through this massive thread page by page) but most of what you think you know about Cobb was fabricated nonsense by a documented liar, Al Stump. Charlie Leerhsen wrote a great Cobb bio some years back. He had the novel idea of actually researching his subject.

That's what I've tried to say on here too. There is a lot to learn about Cobb - the man - when you look at it without the bias. We all know Cobb the player, no introduction needed there. But I believe we thought we knew Cobb the man as well. And we didn't.

 

[Jets4Life]

No one is excusing it.



That's what I've tried to say on here too. There is a lot to learn about Cobb - the man - when you look at it without the bias. We all know Cobb the player, no introduction needed there. But I believe we thought we knew Cobb the man as well. And we didn't.

I agree with what you had said about the pendulum being swung in the other direction. Obviously nobody is condoning Bobby Hull for domestic violence, and in an ideal world, he would have been punished for it when it first came to light in 1970. I could not help to notice that once Bobby Hull was charged in a domestic incident in 1986, no further allegations were made. Perhaps it was a wake up call for him.

Having seen the way some vocal people are going off on Jonathan Toews in regards to the Kyle Brach scandal is bizarre. He was the captain in 2010, but what are people expecting if him? To threaten to quit the team in the middle of a Stanley Cup run?

I dread the date when Don Cherry dies. I didn't always agree with him, and consider him a product of his time. However, I've seen people wishing death upon him on different social media sites. I mean people are flawed. If anything, as a society we can learn from mistakes of our one time heroes.

 

[Big Phil]

I agree with what you had said about the pendulum being swung in the other direction. Obviously nobody is condoning Bobby Hull for domestic violence, and in an ideal world, he would have been punished for it when it first came to light in 1970. I could not help to notice that once Bobby Hull was charged in a domestic incident in 1986, no further allegations were made. Perhaps it was a wake up call for him.

Having seen the way some vocal people are going off on Jonathan Toews in regards to the Kyle Brach scandal is bizarre. He was the captain in 2010, but what are people expecting if him? To threaten to quit the team in the middle of a Stanley Cup run?

I dread the date when Don Cherry dies. I didn't always agree with him, and consider him a product of his time. However, I've seen people wishing death upon him on different social media sites. I mean people are flawed. If anything, as a society we can learn from mistakes of our one time heroes.

Could have been a wake up call for him, who knows. I'd like to think it was. We all know the story - if it was true - his then wife Joanne going up to John Ferguson after a fight he and Hull had in 1965 and saying "Thank you for teaching my husband a lesson." So none of what I read is new to me on here. His life is pretty private to the point where all I know is he never divorced his wife from 1986. Maybe they were separated, I am not sure.

I loved Grapes, and I think he resonates with the blue collar group of fans - which is most of them - too much to ever be remembered as anything less than beloved. Even the white collar fans would begrudgingly admit they would want Cherry to have their back over MacLean if push came to shove. He was honest, he was colourful and the players he coached still loved him decades later. Compare it to the boring and vanilla analysts and broadcasters, or even coaches for that matter, and you can tell why people miss Cherry, even though he is still around.

Toews is a classic example of how the internet is filled with the "I would have done things differently" crowd. I think there was a lot of over the top hang wringing when all of the Kyle Beach stuff came out and there has been a calming down of things to the point where few question Toews' overall leadership anymore or even bring it up. I can remember the whole "Don't let Toews/Kane/Keith" group into the HHOF (no one said Hossa ought to be taken out though interestingly enough) crowd. It died down.

 

[MeHateHe]

I dread the date when Don Cherry dies. I didn't always agree with him, and consider him a product of his time.

This is such a dodge. We’re all ‘products of our time.’ If you grew up in the 60s or 70s in small town Canada, you probably grew up with retrograde ideas about a whole host of people, people you only heard about from big cities and other countries.

The “product of his time” excuse basically means he wasn’t smart enough to learn better behaviour. I don’t buy it. Cherry had the opportunity to listen to people and maybe learn a thing or two, but it was to his financial benefit - and it stroked his ego - to keep playing a hero to a bunch of other people who didn’t want to listen to new ideas. He made his bed, and he has no one to blame but himself. If he had either stuck to hockey or maybe learned about why people were getting upset, he might have been able to retire with his reputation more or less intact.

Here’s how this is relevant to this thread. Being really, really good at one thing will cover up a lot of other sins, most of the time. Bobby Hull was really, really good at hockey. Don Cherry was really, really good at entertaining. But there’s a limit, after which people will stop looking the other way. Violating that limit doesn’t make you irredeemable, if you acknowledge what you’ve done and make a real commitment to change.

Bobby Hull was a great hockey player who did terrible things off the ice. Some would call him a product of his time, too. If he ever took responsibility for those things, it was awfully quiet, which is a shame because he, too, could have rode off into the sunset with his reputation more or less intact.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

The alleged number is 118 MPH. It was measured by Lloyd Percival and published in the February 1968 issue of Popular Mechanics.

View attachment 647606

I find it strange that a magazine like Popular Mechanics can be this far off, even in 1968 when we were preparing to land on the Moon.

How Fast Do Hockey Players Skate? - Hockey Response :


"The fastest hockey players have been known to skate up to 25 miles per hour (40 kilometres per hour) on the ice while the average player can typically skate up to 20 miles per hour (32 kilometres per hour)."

 

[Dingo]

I find it strange that a magazine like Popular Mechanics can be this far off, even in 1968 when we were preparing to land on the Moon.

How Fast Do Hockey Players Skate? - Hockey Response :


"The fastest hockey players have been known to skate up to 25 miles per hour (40 kilometres per hour) on the ice while the average player can typically skate up to 20 miles per hour (32 kilometres per hour)."

There are several softball pitchers from the 70s who also threw at unreachable levels by current standards.

My guess is that radar guns have changed.

 

[DaaaaB's]

I loved Grapes, and I think he resonates with the blue collar group of fans - which is most of them - too much to ever be remembered as anything less than beloved. Even the white collar fans would begrudgingly admit they would want Cherry to have their back over MacLean if push came to shove. He was honest, he was colourful and the players he coached still loved him decades later. Compare it to the boring and vanilla analysts and broadcasters, or even coaches for that matter, and you can tell why people miss Cherry, even though he is still around.

So by blue collar and white collar you actually mean bigots and non-bigots. If you're referring to people's jobs, I'm a blue collar worker and I think Don Cherry was an absolute fool. Both the game of Hockey and society as a whole passed by him decades ago.

 

[T REX]

I order my wings...BOBBY HULL STYLE...hot and crispy

 

[Big Phil]

So by blue collar and white collar you actually mean bigots and non-bigots. If you're referring to people's jobs, I'm a blue collar worker and I think Don Cherry was an absolute fool. Both the game of Hockey and society as a whole passed by him decades ago.

You can name call anyway you'd like to I guess. That's your choice. He was popular with the middle class fans, which is most of them. I don't know what to tell you. If you are calling everyone who is blue collar a "bigot" then you've got some work to do. Cherry was close to the game, he was the type that showed up - and still does - at a minor hockey game on a Saturday night in the GTA, just for fun. People related to him. People don't relate to Ron MacLean. They just don't. Not many at least. That's what made Cherry so popular. Hockey in the intermissions we realize now is awfully boring and colourless without him.

 

[DaaaaB's]

You can name call anyway you'd like to I guess. That's your choice. He was popular with the middle class fans, which is most of them. I don't know what to tell you. If you are calling everyone who is blue collar a "bigot" then you've got some work to do. Cherry was close to the game, he was the type that showed up - and still does - at a minor hockey game on a Saturday night in the GTA, just for fun. People related to him. People don't relate to Ron MacLean. They just don't. Not many at least. That's what made Cherry so popular. Hockey in the intermissions we realize now is awfully boring and colourless without him.

What a bunch of nonsense. I'm a blue collar worker so I know most of us aren't bigots. People who defend and admire Cherry on the other hand quite often are. It's ridiculous that you're trying to split hockey fans into being blue or white collar as if all those types of people are the exact same. Your middle class comment is equally absurd. So according to you Cherry wasn't popular with poor or rich people? What about all the white collar workers in the middle class?

 

[Big Phil]

What a bunch of nonsense. I'm a blue collar worker so I know most of us aren't bigots. People who defend and admire Cherry on the other hand quite often are. It's ridiculous that you're trying to split hockey fans into being blue or white collar as if all those types of people are the exact same. Your middle class comment is equally absurd. So according to you Cherry wasn't popular with poor or rich people? What about all the white collar workers in the middle class?

He was insanely popular with "poor" fans too. Do you even know his story? He was actually very much on the hard luck side before his big break with Boston. Yeah, the guy was beloved a heck of a lot more than he was loathed. People related to him, he was honest. It isn't something you see in the modern analyst. Always too careful with their words, etc. Cherry was authentic, that's what made people like him.

He was on a television station for 39 years that never stopped trying to get him off the air. Even starting in 1980. You have to be liked by a lot of people for something like that to happen.

Ironically arguably Cherry's two favourite players of all-time are in your profile pic

 

[norrisnick]

Liking Cherry had nothing to do with how much money you had or what kind of job you worked at. It had everything to do with only liking my kind of people and not liking those kind of people. He was very adept at pointing at a group and saying that group was worth of support and that other group was worthy of scorn. It's as simple as that. Very good at dividing people.

 

[Jets4Life]

This is such a dodge. We’re all ‘products of our time.’ If you grew up in the 60s or 70s in small town Canada, you probably grew up with retrograde ideas about a whole host of people, people you only heard about from big cities and other countries.

The “product of his time” excuse basically means he wasn’t smart enough to learn better behaviour. I don’t buy it. Cherry had the opportunity to listen to people and maybe learn a thing or two, but it was to his financial benefit - and it stroked his ego - to keep playing a hero to a bunch of other people who didn’t want to listen to new ideas. He made his bed, and he has no one to blame but himself. If he had either stuck to hockey or maybe learned about why people were getting upset, he might have been able to retire with his reputation more or less intact.

After all Don Cherry has done for this country, you should be ashamed. He has donated to countless charitable causes, supported our armed forces, and has been a first class spokesman for the game of hockey. Luckily, the general public still thinks Don got a raw deal, and if one were to conduct a poll as to who Canadians respect more: Don Cherry or Ron MacLean, it may surprise you.

 

[Jets4Life]

Liking Cherry had nothing to do with how much money you had or what kind of job you worked at. It had everything to do with only liking my kind of people and not liking those kind of people. He was very adept at pointing at a group and saying that group was worth of support and that other group was worthy of scorn. It's as simple as that. Very good at dividing people.

^ This type of attitude is dividing us. It's really sad that you are not in touch with the majority of Canadians. Hell, I bet most POC respect Don Cherry, since most of us have the ability to realise that to error is human, and came to the realisation years ago that the World is not "Black and White.". Who do you think you are to play "God" and judge people? This whole "decry these people as monsters or you are just as bad as them" mentality is wearing really thin, and it's clear the vocal minority of people leading this hate-filled charge, are really out of touch with the Canadian public.

 

[Big Phil]

Liking Cherry had nothing to do with how much money you had or what kind of job you worked at. It had everything to do with only liking my kind of people and not liking those kind of people. He was very adept at pointing at a group and saying that group was worth of support and that other group was worthy of scorn. It's as simple as that. Very good at dividing people.

Yet he stuck up for the same people too at times. He'd knock Ovechkin when he felt it was warranted, and then defend him. Always like Bure, I have no idea why he was such a fan of Yashin. Wasn't terribly fond of Crosby at the beginning of his career either. Called out Mario for diving a lot back in the day. I mean, Cherry never picked his spots. Went face to face with Matt Cooke when Cooke confronted him about something said on Coach's Corner. Like I said, a guy even his own detractors would admit they would want him on their side for a war. I can remember him saying "Well, you all know Crosby flubbed that golden goal shot right?" I remember thinking, wow, even a proud Canadian like Cherry who makes a living pumping up the good old Canadian player will take a shot at someone if necessary. I think that is what made him as popular as he was. No one is honest like that these days.

 

[norrisnick]

^ This type of attitude is dividing us. It's really sad that you are not in touch with the majority of Canadians. Hell, I bet most POC respect Don Cherry, since most of us have the ability to realise that to error is human, and came to the realisation years ago that the World is not "Black and White.". Who do you think you are to play "God" and judge people? This whole "decry these people as monsters or you are just as bad as them" mentality is wearing really thin, and it's clear the vocal minority of people leading this hate-filled charge, are really out of touch with the Canadian public.

I'm not Canadian and only marginally more of an atheist than you are.

 

[norrisnick]

Yet he stuck up for the same people too at times. He'd knock Ovechkin when he felt it was warranted, and then defend him. Always like Bure, I have no idea why he was such a fan of Yashin. Wasn't terribly fond of Crosby at the beginning of his career either. Called out Mario for diving a lot back in the day. I mean, Cherry never picked his spots. Went face to face with Matt Cooke when Cooke confronted him about something said on Coach's Corner. Like I said, a guy even his own detractors would admit they would want him on their side for a war. I can remember him saying "Well, you all know Crosby flubbed that golden goal shot right?" I remember thinking, wow, even a proud Canadian like Cherry who makes a living pumping up the good old Canadian player will take a shot at someone if necessary. I think that is what made him as popular as he was. No one is honest like that these days.

I don't put much stock in the 10% of not being an asshole, when 90% of the time you are. Lashing out at Chicken Swedes and Euro Sissies isn't honesty. And that's the milder stuff, not going into the rest. It's a lot of us vs them tribalism. But they never seem to grasp that the us is a much bigger group than they ever consider.

 

[Big Phil]

I don't put much stock in the 10% of not being an asshole, when 90% of the time you are. Lashing out at Chicken Swedes and Euro Sissies isn't honesty. And that's the milder stuff, not going into the rest. It's a lot of us vs them tribalism. But they never seem to grasp that the us is a much bigger group than they ever consider.

I seem to get it, you don't care for the guy. That was part of his honesty. He coached the Bruins, he openly cheered for the Bruins, even if it was against the Leafs. He loved the Leafs, but not vs. the Bruins. He was a proud Canadian, and he was always that way. That's why Canadians loved him for the most part. Like I said, he stuck up for people. I can still remember him schooling Michael Farber in that video where he was standing up for the WJC kids coming back from the Piestany punch up in 1987. What can you say? He was loyal to a fault. You knew what you got with him. I miss that controversy in the game. These days all you have are these prissy guys in the media talking about happy they are that fighting is not prevalent anymore. The problem is there isn't the guy anymore that speaks for the fans. Cherry always did this. No one is left that does this. No one wants to be scorned on Twitter over a remark. There is no boldness.

 

[norrisnick]

I seem to get it, you don't care for the guy. That was part of his honesty. He coached the Bruins, he openly cheered for the Bruins, even if it was against the Leafs. He loved the Leafs, but not vs. the Bruins. He was a proud Canadian, and he was always that way. That's why Canadians loved him for the most part. Like I said, he stuck up for people. I can still remember him schooling Michael Farber in that video where he was standing up for the WJC kids coming back from the Piestany punch up in 1987. What can you say? He was loyal to a fault. You knew what you got with him. I miss that controversy in the game. These days all you have are these prissy guys in the media talking about happy they are that fighting is not prevalent anymore. The problem is there isn't the guy anymore that speaks for the fans. Cherry always did this. No one is left that does this. No one wants to be scorned on Twitter over a remark. There is no boldness.

No, the problem is that there isn't a guy anymore that speaks for you.

I am thoroughly happy that fighting is on the outs. I'd prefer it be a match penalty as it is. Join the rest of the civilized world with regards to fighting in team sports.

 

[Jets4Life]

I seem to get it, you don't care for the guy. That was part of his honesty. He coached the Bruins, he openly cheered for the Bruins, even if it was against the Leafs. He loved the Leafs, but not vs. the Bruins. He was a proud Canadian, and he was always that way. That's why Canadians loved him for the most part. Like I said, he stuck up for people. I can still remember him schooling Michael Farber in that video where he was standing up for the WJC kids coming back from the Piestany punch up in 1987. What can you say? He was loyal to a fault. You knew what you got with him. I miss that controversy in the game. These days all you have are these prissy guys in the media talking about happy they are that fighting is not prevalent anymore. The problem is there isn't the guy anymore that speaks for the fans. Cherry always did this. No one is left that does this. No one wants to be scorned on Twitter over a remark. There is no boldness.

Well said, Phil.

All one has to do is Google "Don Cherry" then add the word "charity" to his name to see what kind of person he was. It's sad that Cherry is no longer on HNIC, but I guess he is in the twilight of his life. I just wish they could have given him a proper send off. I can't even watch HNIC now. It's so cringe-worthy. Ron MacLean sold his soul, and betrayed the man who pretty much made him. I know of not one person who respect the man.

 

[Big Phil]

Well said, Phil.

All one has to do is Google "Don Cherry" then add the word "charity" to his name to see what kind of person he was. It's sad that Cherry is no longer on HNIC, but I guess he is in the twilight of his life. I just wish they could have given him a proper send off. I can't even watch HNIC now. It's so cringe-worthy. Ron MacLean sold his soul, and betrayed the man who pretty much made him. I know of not one person who respect the man.

MacLean...............oh, where to begin. You saw a contrast in character between someone like MacLean and someone like Bobby Orr. Orr right away stuck up for Don, told people he knows him well, knows he misspoke and that MacLean should be ashamed for not going to bat for him. MacLean just threw Cherry under the bus in order to save however many years Rogers wants to keep him around. Imagine if MacLean actually stuck up for Cherry the day after (he ironically gave the thumbs up for the thing that got Cherry fired on Coach's Corner). Wouldn't that have just simmered down the mob that wanted him fired? That's the difference, and it is a shame because Cherry helped MacLean get his job back twice!

I think people see the difference in the two men with Cherry and MacLean. I wouldn't turn my back on MacLean for one second. I suspect his colleagues off camera think the same way. He certainly doesn't have a lot of respect anymore. And yeah, boy are the intermissions boring these days. Ugh. Saturday nights even a dull game you used to know Coach's Corner was coming on.

No, the problem is that there isn't a guy anymore that speaks for you.

I am thoroughly happy that fighting is on the outs. I'd prefer it be a match penalty as it is. Join the rest of the civilized world with regards to fighting in team sports.

See again, that's the weird thing with how the anti-fighting crowd works. They like to tell us what we should like and what we should not like. I was at a junior hockey game the other night. Not really much in the way of tempers flaring until the 3rd period. There was a bit of rough stuff, some roughing penalties and such but not enough for a fighting major. Two guys really wanted to go at each other and kept skating around trying to make it happen. Nothing has changed in the mindset of the fan. There were 6,000 people still wanting to see some fisticuffs. Same sort of response that you would see from fans at a game in, say, 1998 or so. Nothing has changed, they have just whitewashed the personalities out of the game that spoke the truth about things.

These days like I said it is mostly just the prissy types scared to say anything that raises an eyebrow, so of course they make it seem like people just want to watch an emotionless game of hockey on the ice. Hockey has gone corporate, and it hasn't made things better. Cherry was an anti-establishment type. Another reason why he was so popular. Be careful what you wish for with the demise of these honest types.

 

[norrisnick]

See again, that's the weird thing with how the anti-fighting crowd works. They like to tell us what we should like and what we should not like. I was at a junior hockey game the other night. Not really much in the way of tempers flaring until the 3rd period. There was a bit of rough stuff, some roughing penalties and such but not enough for a fighting major. Two guys really wanted to go at each other and kept skating around trying to make it happen. Nothing has changed in the mindset of the fan. There were 6,000 people still wanting to see some fisticuffs. Same sort of response that you would see from fans at a game in, say, 1998 or so. Nothing has changed, they have just whitewashed the personalities out of the game that spoke the truth about things.

These days like I said it is mostly just the prissy types scared to say anything that raises an eyebrow, so of course they make it seem like people just want to watch an emotionless game of hockey on the ice. Hockey has gone corporate, and it hasn't made things better. Cherry was an anti-establishment type. Another reason why he was so popular. Be careful what you wish for with the demise of these honest types.

I don't care what you like or don't like. That's up to you. I'm not the one here talking about hockey fans in an arena as if they were a singular entity roaring for blood sport. That's you.

And I'm trying to figure out just what it is you're trying to hint at with all this truth and honesty nonsense. Especially when Cherry was the mouthpiece of the old-boy club NHL establishment. He was the furthest thing from anti-establishment. The problem for Cherry was that society grew up and the establishment had to change and Don didn't get the memo. Or more likely didn't read it, which is why they let him go.

It's probably a better idea to watch out for the ones that wrap themselves in "truth and honesty". If you're actually honest and telling the truth you don't have to assert that you are all the time. People will know.

 

[Big Phil]

I don't care what you like or don't like. That's up to you. I'm not the one here talking about hockey fans in an arena as if they were a singular entity roaring for blood sport. That's you.

And I'm trying to figure out just what it is you're trying to hint at with all this truth and honesty nonsense. Especially when Cherry was the mouthpiece of the old-boy club NHL establishment. He was the furthest thing from anti-establishment. The problem for Cherry was that society grew up and the establishment had to change and Don didn't get the memo. Or more likely didn't read it, which is why they let him go.

It's probably a better idea to watch out for the ones that wrap themselves in "truth and honesty". If you're actually honest and telling the truth you don't have to assert that you are all the time. People will know.

I was there, just the other night, nothing has changed, people still want to see a good tilt. No matter what the media says.

Don and the old boys club was never the establishment. CBC tried to fire Don back in 1980, and probably every year after that. The "old boys" of hockey were always the outliers. Hockey itself was not like other sports. Don was the same 40 years ago, he didn't grovel and try to be likeable.

What are you trying to say here though, do you like the bland style we see these days? Heck, add something interesting again. Put Brett Hull in there and call it "Hullie's corner" or something. Jeremy Roenick. Maybe give John Tortorella a gig the next time he gets fired. You are telling me you wouldn't watch that? Of course you would. There was a reason 3-4 million people a week tuned into Cherry.