Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

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Reading comprehension and logical reasoning are really not your strong suit.

Your manipulation is really gross and it’s very telling of your character.

I very clearly laid out what I said, and the fact you are choosing to deliberately misrepresent it is frankly embarrassing.

In no world am I downplaying any abuse and honestly, the person you’ve shown yourself as in this conversation is embarrassing and disgusting.

You continue to downplay horrible acts that other NHL players have done, when comparing them to Hull. Now you are just resorting to personal attacks and lashing out at me, out of frustration that your argument is incredibly flawed.
 
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You continue to downplay horrible acts that other NHL players have done, when comparing them to Hull. It's sad that you lack the self-awareness to realise this. Now you are just resorting to personal attacks and lashing out at me, out of frustration that your argument is incredibly flawed.
I very clearly did not downplay any abuse. I stated that the situations were all very different than Hull’s while also making clear to not defend them at all. The fact that you completely glossed over my very detailed post above is the most telling piece of this discussion. Lack of awareness is right.

Really disappointing and disgusting responses. Good luck.
 
The physical abuse he inflicted was not to the same violent level as Bobby beating a woman with a steel toed shoe and attempting to murder her by going to throw her over the balcony. That is not excusing or downplaying Watson’s violence because no one should be doing either. It is to make clear that there are many different levels and degrees of violence.

Accusing Bobby Hull of attempted murder is a very serious allegation. Do you have any concrete evidence of this?
 
You keep contradicting yourself. Do you honestly believe Slava Voynov only assaulted his wife once? Do you know anything about domestic violence whatsoever? People who beat their spouses rarely ever just "snap." It a cycle of abuses that usually takes place over a prolonged period of time. Hell, we learned about this in high school. Why do you think Voynov's wife was begging authorities not to press charges? She was the classic domestic violence victim.

You constantly move the goalposts:

Evander Kane? "nothing has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt"

Slava Yovnov? " it only occurred once!"

Auston Watson? "It was a minor incident when compared to Hull!"

Bobby Hull? "he was a monster who was far worse than Voynov, Austin, and Kane combined!!"'


OK we get it, you have a personal vendetta against Hull, and really care about being right more than any moral misgiving about Hull, since you certainly would not be downplaying what Kane, Watson and Voynov did.

PS...if Bobby Hull hypothetically was charged with assaulting his wife today, he would most likely get a similar punishment as Austin. Probation and community service, one month in jail at the absolute worst. It's obvious you have no awareness of the judicial system in Canada or the United States either.

We will never know about the intimate details of the Voynov or Austin cases, since there is no public interest to find out. Voynov only played for 3 seasons, and was no superstar. Austin is a career journeyman. Even if they were 500+ goal scorers, the full extent of their abuses would probably not be known until long after they retired.
No, you're reaching here.

The NHL is notoriously cautious when it comes to its players, by which I mean they will give the players the benefit of the doubt in most cases. They briefly made some mention of an investigation into Evander Kane and concluded, as did the police, that there wasn't enough there to pursue.

The Voynov incident is the best analog; a conviction, and compelling evidence, led the league to actually take action against the player, declaring him ineligible, or however they managed it.

Every incident will be treated separately. Trying to argue that because Patrick Kane got into a scuffle with a cabbie, that that is somehow the same as Bobby Hull beating his wife bloody with the metal heel of a shoe, and holding her over a balcony so that she thought he was going to kill her, I mean, c'mon. Not every crime gets the death penalty. Some are more serious than others. And yes, the league will react more strongly if there are multiple incidents/witnesses/victims of a similar nature, because one person complaining carries some weight, but multiple persons complaining about similar incidents is by an order of magnitude more compelling.

Moreover, the league does take certain steps to give players chances/time to either redeem themselves or show that they've changed, which is reasonable. Had these incidents happened or had been reported now, Hull would certainly have been taken out of active duty until he had a chance to either clear his name, take responsibility for his actions or make some kind of amends. Near as I can tell, he has never displayed much in terms of remorse for this, even after the club finally and publicly removed him from their ambassador program.

It's the last point I'm focused on, reminded as I am that this is a thread about his legacy. Yes, people do bad things. Like our own Jiminy Cricket, we have a voice in the back of our head saying 'this was not good and I should feel bad about that.' For Bobby Hull to hit his mid-80s, having done some of the things we've been talking about, and not at least privately saying 'I regret that' at least, that is now part of his legacy. And again, because the range between 'good' and 'bad' is a spectrum, saying that kind of thing privately is pretty good, but saying it publicly is a lot better. Unless someone can point me to it, I'm not aware he's done anything public to indicate that he accepts that what he did was bad.

At the end of the day, Hull's off-ice actions were indicative of who he was. While the league is certainly more cowardly when it comes to off-ice expectations of its current players (see their refusal to say anything of substance around a certain Washington Capitals forward or of a certain Philadelphia Flyers player), there is no doubt that if even allegations arose that a current player beat his partner bloody with a metal-heeled shoe and held her over a balcony, there would be fairly swift repercussions against that player, until that player was somehow publicly redeemed.
 
No, you're reaching here.

The NHL is notoriously cautious when it comes to its players, by which I mean they will give the players the benefit of the doubt in most cases. They briefly made some mention of an investigation into Evander Kane and concluded, as did the police, that there wasn't enough there to pursue.

It's blatantly obvious that the justice system in the US and Canada tends to be pretty lenient with people with money and power. This probably explains away why Hull, Kane, and others never have faced criminal proceedings for their bad misdeeds. You can't possibly come to the conclusion that it would be the same for someone going up against the same accusations with limited means.

This is even more evident in other pro leagues. The NFL is notorious for sweeping things under the rug, when star athletes engage is criminal activity, especially things such as sexual assault and domestic violence.



Every incident will be treated separately. Trying to argue that because Patrick Kane got into a scuffle with a cabbie, that that is somehow the same as Bobby Hull beating his wife bloody with the metal heel of a shoe, and holding her over a balcony so that she thought he was going to kill her, I mean, c'mon. Not every crime gets the death penalty. Some are more serious than others. And yes, the league will react more strongly if there are multiple incidents/witnesses/victims of a similar nature, because one person complaining carries some weight, but multiple persons complaining about similar incidents is by an order of magnitude more compelling.

There has been several allegations, even links in this thread in regards to far worse behaviour with Kane. Which goes back to my prior sentence. Kane got away with it, since he is a star athlete, making $10 million/season. People like you and I would be looking at prison terms if we were to have done the same. If anything, the Voynov situation seems to be the exception to the rule, in professional sports.

Moreover, the league does take certain steps to give players chances/time to either redeem themselves or show that they've changed, which is reasonable. Had these incidents happened or had been reported now, Hull would certainly have been taken out of active duty until he had a chance to either clear his name, take responsibility for his actions or make some kind of amends. Near as I can tell, he has never displayed much in terms of remorse for this, even after the club finally and publicly removed him from their ambassador program.

I've raised that point before. I'm a big fan of redemption and especially giving people second chances. In spite of Evander Kane's numerous transgressions during his lifetime, I can honestly state that I am rooting for him to make positive changes in his life. So far it seems he has done well in Edmonton. Perhaps it was a wake up call. People have the tendency to wait until they nearly hit rock bottom to change. With the COVID suspension, the bankruptcy problems, and the bitter custody battle with he ex, perhaps Kane finally admitted to ahving some off ice problems, gets help, and becomes a better person.

It's the last point I'm focused on, reminded as I am that this is a thread about his legacy. Yes, people do bad things. Like our own Jiminy Cricket, we have a voice in the back of our head saying 'this was not good and I should feel bad about that.' For Bobby Hull to hit his mid-80s, having done some of the things we've been talking about, and not at least privately saying 'I regret that' at least, that is now part of his legacy. And again, because the range between 'good' and 'bad' is a spectrum, saying that kind of thing privately is pretty good, but saying it publicly is a lot better. Unless someone can point me to it, I'm not aware he's done anything public to indicate that he accepts that what he did was bad.

We don't know that Hull did or did not feel remorse later in life. 1986 is the last noted instance of domestic violence Hull was involved in. Incidentally, this is the only time he actually was in trouble with the law, so perhaps it was a wake up call for Hull. If anything, it should have been dealt with sooner. I know for a fact that Winnipeg Police had dealt with domestic disturbances with Hull and his ex-wife in the late 70s, although I am not sure why anything was done at the time. Most people on this forum were not even born in 1986. Hull had nearly 37 years from that time, until when he passed.

However, the thread is dominated with 95% comments about his off-ice problems. Considering this is a hockey forum, and the title of the thread is Bobby Hull's legacy, we can't just pretend that his time in professional hockey should be whitewashed, and not spoken about.

Despite his off ice misgivings, Bobby Hull was more of the most prolific goal scorers in hockey history. He came to the Blackhawks, who were a struggling team, and led them to their first Stanley Cup in decades. He also was a huge draw at the box office, and from all accounts, always had time for his fans, especially children.

When Hull signed with the WHA, it was a defining moment in hockey history, as it gave the new league recognition, and helped tripe the average salary for professional hockey players in the 70s. It paved the way for many other NHL stars to sign with the new league, and the end result was more opportunity for the games and it's athletes, and better working conditions and bargaining power.

Bobby, from all accounts was great with the fans, was involved with the community, and did numerous work for charitable causes in Manitoba in the 70s. Hull also was a big proponent of European hockey players coming to North America, and developed life long friendships with Ulf Nilsson and Anders Hedberg, and took them under his wing during their first couple of seasons away from Sweden.

Like him or hate him, Bobby Hull will always have a lasting legacy on the sport of hockey.
 
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However, the thread is dominated with 95% comments about his off-ice problems. Considering this is a hockey forum, and the title of the thread is Bobby Hull's legacy, we can't just pretend that his time in professional hockey should be whitewashed, and not spoken about.

Possibly because there are 2-3 naysayers who insist on debating Hull's off-ice problems ad nauseum, whereas Hull's on-ice contributions aren't really that controversial.
 
Possibly because there are 2-3 naysayers who insist on debating Hull's off-ice problems ad nauseum, whereas Hull's on-ice contributions aren't really that controversial.

What about Hull's exclusion from that 1972 Summit Series against the Soviet Union, due to him signing with the WHA? I thought that was bullshit, and showed the pettiness of the NHL owners.

Bobby_Hull_cheque.jpg


A historical moment for professional hockey. Bobby Hull and his family touched down in Winnipeg to sign with the WHA WInnipeg Jets for $1,000,000 making him the richest hockey player at the time. Brett Hull is holding the cheque in this picture.
 
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What about Hull's exclusion from that 1972 Summit Series against the Soviet Union, due to him signing with the WHA? I thought that was bullshit, and showed the pettiness of the NHL owners.
That was a WHA-thing (or a non-NHLPA thing). Not a Bobby Hull thing, as there were at least one other WHA-player who'd have made that roster otherwise. Also more to do with Alan Eagleson than with the NHL owners. Though again, those two things are easily confounded.

You should also probably edit the part where you call Hull the richest NHL player after signing a deal in another league. That is illogical.
 
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What about Hull's exclusion from that 1972 Summit Series against the Soviet Union, due to him signing with the WHA? I thought that was bullshit, and showed the pettiness of the NHL owners.

Hey, I agree it was bullshit. NHL owners are historically petty and mean, and it was probably worse back then.

It has everything to do with Bobby Hull. This is about Bobby Hull's legacy. The OP has made that much clear.

What? Just because this thread is about Bobby Hull's legacy doesn't mean that every single post in here is relevant to that.
 
It has everything to do with Bobby Hull. This is about Bobby Hull's legacy. The OP has made that much clear.

If we ignore the WHA we leave out a huge part of Hull's legacy and playing career.

That's a spectacular non-sequitur you came up with.

I'll explain, a bit slower this time : Bobby Hull wasn't prohibited to participate in the Summit Series because he was Bobby Hull. He was prohibited because he had signed to the WHA (or wasn't an NHLPA Member, I can't remember which technicality was invoked). He wasn't the only one to whom this prohibition applied : it actually applied to every WHA player (or every hockey player who wasn't an NHLPA Member), and at least one other WHA'er would've been on that team otherwise (Jean-Claude Tremblay) and another two who had a solid inside track at worse (Derek Sanderson and Gerry Cheevers -- and come to think of it there's probably no chance Cheevers isn't on that team, though logically as the 3rd stringer), hence the whole point about this ban not being a ban specific to Bobby Hull -- though it really concerned only him, Tremblay and possibly Sanderson/Cheevers.
 
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We're both intelligent people. I can take a hint. It's obvious that any on-ice talk about Bobby Hull is going to be discouraged.

I'll see myself out.

I honestly don't think you actually remember where you started this tangent, even though it was less than thirty minutes ago.

If there's a hint that needs to be taken, it's that your arguments are so flexible that, if they were a goaltender, they'd be in the Hall of Fame.

And when people poke at them, you take your puck and go home.

Happy to sum it up here if it's useful:

You: Bobby Hull being excluded from the Summit Series was bullshit.

Others: Yes, but that was directed at the WHA and not specifically at Hull.

You: It was absolutely directed at Bobby Hull.

Others: Yes, as part of being in the WHA.

You: Bobby Hull's time in the WHA was relevant to his legacy.

Others: Sure.

You: ON-ICE TALK OF BOBBY HULL IS DISCOURAGED!
 
Possibly because there are 2-3 naysayers who insist on debating Hull's off-ice problems ad nauseum, whereas Hull's on-ice contributions aren't really that controversial.

There are actually quite a few more than just 2 -3 of you. It's refreshing to see that you have the self awareness to take a look in the mirror.
 
We don't know that Hull did or did not feel remorse later in life. 1986 is the last noted instance of domestic violence Hull was involved in. Incidentally, this is the only time he actually was in trouble with the law, so perhaps it was a wake up call for Hull. If anything, it should have been dealt with sooner. I know for a fact that Winnipeg Police had dealt with domestic disturbances with Hull and his ex-wife in the late 70s, although I am not sure why anything was done at the time. Most people on this forum were not even born in 1986. Hull had nearly 37 years from that time, until when he passed.
Again, Private remorse - if it happened - is one thing. That his family as a whole have not jumped to his defence speaks to whether or not it happened. Public remorse would be a lot better in terms of image rehabilitation. And there's been none of that.

I typically reject condemning outright anyone. I think we're all worthy of and capable of redemption. But for it to be real, it has to be in keeping with your transgressions. If I, a private person, stepped on your toes, it's a good bet that a private and personal apology would be more than enough. If a public person does something far more heinous, I think redemption looks a lot different. And yes, the rules for public personalities is different for large-transgressions. Sorry, but if you live in the public eye, you benefit from that; the downside is that you have to pay a public cost for anything you do.
However, the thread is dominated with 95% comments about his off-ice problems. Considering this is a hockey forum, and the title of the thread is Bobby Hull's legacy, we can't just pretend that his time in professional hockey should be whitewashed, and not spoken about.
There's an entire thread in which posters have been told to stick to hockey. This is not that thread. When you have one thread devoted entirely to his hockey accomplishments, it's natural that a thread in which people are allowed to talk about off-ice transgressions, they will. We take it as read that he was a great hockey player. Part of why many (not me) have responded with full-on comments about those off-ice problems is precisely because you have a few posters tut-tutting any mention of anything other than hockey and other posters, such as yourself, sort of suggesting that any posts talking about him beating his wife bloody should also talk about his slap shot, or saying he always signed autographs.
Like him or hate him, Bobby Hull will always have a lasting legacy on the sport of hockey.
He did. And him bludgeoning his wife impacts his legacy, like it or hate it.
 
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I also want to mention, I think it's fair to say Bobby Hull's domestic abuse, especially among active users in HOH, has been common knowledge for a long time.

Yet before his death, there were countless threads about him relating exclusively to his on ice contributions. So I don't think it's that anyone here is disregarding what he's done for hockey.

But in a thread about his legacy, expect his off ice actions to be discussed and at the forefront because for many people, how you treat others leaves a more lasting impression than how good you were at a game.
 
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