News Article: Bob McKenzie: Link Between Subban's Usage and Contract Negotiations (UPDATE OP)?

[TheGoalJudge]

Because Geoff Molson wants playoff money.

Ya but they're going to have to give all that money to Subban! They'd rather fold the team than pay Subban!

 

[DAChampion]

Ya but they're going to have to give all that money to Subban! They'd rather fold the team than pay Subban!

It's a balancing act between winning and marketing.

If winning was everything, Desharnais and Briere would not be on the team, and Subban would be playing 27-30 minutes a game.

 

[Miller Time]

Ridiculous. Yes racism is rampant in the world and in hockey, and yes PK has received a raw deal from many big hockey media personalities but if Therrien consciously or subconsciously is trying to screw Subban, why does he give him so much ice-time and PP time? Offense is going to get PK a huge contract.
.

as you point out, MT's job is to win, and his paycheck/livelihood is at play here as well.

the question you should be asking, or seem to be avoiding, is if he ISN"T treating PK with a bias, why has he consistently limited his role/minutes in contrast to what the kid is clearly capable of?

all the other dmen in the "top-5" conversation in the league, lead their team in ice time & play over 25min/game... Subban is closer to 24min & 2nd to Markov.

heck, even Seth Jones, a rookie, is getting more TOI/G than the reigning Norris trophy winner.

it is coaching idiocy... question is does the mistake happen because of philosophy or b/c of bias?

FYI, back in his Pitt days, MT had no problem using Gonchar 26min/game, despite his habit for defensive guffaws and ill timed pinches.... just sayin

 

[Saundies]

So why does Subban lead NHL Dmen in PP time per game. Why does he get more PP time than Crosby or Malkin? He puts up tons of points on the PP. Why would they allow this if they want to hinder his production?

I'm not saying they want to hinder his production at all. Obviously the Habs still want to win games, and Subban on the PP gives them the best chance to win games. The better question is, why wouldn't you use your NORRIS WINNING defenseman on the PK, especially over guys like Francis Bouillon? Why would you constantly bury him in the media, not come out in defense of some of his mistakes, etc? There's no justifiable answer for it at all.

I think you completely forget last year that when PK came back, Therrien played Raphael Diaz ahead of him on the first PP unit with Markov. It wasn't until Diaz got hurt that PK was finally moved back onto the top unit, and then "excelled" as you say. If Diaz wouldn't have gotten hurt, who knows what would have happened? In no level of hockey, pee-wee, bantam, etc, would you ever play a player like Diaz over Subban on the PP. Ever... yet Therrien did. Therrien actually almost cost Subban the Norris last year based on his TOI usage.

Something's up here. It's nothing that you can plainly justify, so that's why we have to try and come up with something to explain it.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

An interview Therrien gave as coach of the Penguins. Tell me if you see anything familiar.

Q. Do you think [Malkin's] being treated unfairly? Do you think he's getting a bit of a rough ride?

COACH MICHEL THERRIEN: It's not up to me to say that.

Therrien hates Russians too!

 

[loudi94]

If that's the case Subban should sign for the minimum years that takes him to UFA and then go somewhere else. I wouldn't blame him if that's what he did if that's the way management wants to treat him.

If he doesn't get around 8 x 8, I'm thinking that's exactly what will happen. PK forcing MB to take a bridge contract right off a cliff.

Someone in the media will outright ask PK about this stuff soon enough. His answers will tell the story.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

I'm not saying they want to hinder his production at all. Obviously the Habs still want to win games, and Subban on the PP gives them the best chance to win games. The better question is, why wouldn't you use your NORRIS WINNING defenseman on the PK, especially over guys like Francis Bouillon? Why would you constantly bury him in the media, not come out in defense of some of his mistakes, etc? There's no justifiable answer for it at all.

I think you completely forget last year that when PK came back, Therrien played Raphael Diaz ahead of him on the first PP unit with Markov. It wasn't until Diaz got hurt that PK was finally moved back onto the top unit, and then "excelled" as you say. If Diaz wouldn't have gotten hurt, who knows what would have happened? In no level of hockey, pee-wee, bantam, etc, would you ever play a player like Diaz over Subban on the PP. Ever... yet Therrien did. Therrien actually almost cost Subban the Norris last year based on his TOI usage.

Something's up here. It's nothing that you can plainly justify, so that's why we have to try and come up with something to explain it.

PK Subban was 2nd in the entire NHL last year in PP time. 1st place was Kovalchuk. PK Subban spent all that time with Andrei Markov, one of the best PP QBs in the league.

Last year, PK Subban was 7th worst in GA/60 minutes of penalty kill time among defensemen who played 40 games or more. So Therrien took him off the penalty kill and let him have more PP minutes.

This was in stark contrast to what Jacques Martin did, who opted to give Subban more PK time and less PP time.

So I'm not seeing how Therrien was hurting Subban. Meanwhile, Therrien is trying to win hockey games.

 

[Miller Time]

PK Subban was 2nd in the entire NHL last year in PP time. 1st place was Kovalchuk. PK Subban spent all that time with Andrei Markov, one of the best PP QBs in the league.

Last year, PK Subban was 7th worst in GA/60 minutes of penalty kill time among defensemen who played 40 games or more. So Therrien took him off the penalty kill and let him have more PP minutes.

This was in stark contrast to what Jacques Martin did, who opted to give Subban more PK time and less PP time.

So I'm not seeing how Therrien was hurting Subban. Meanwhile, Therrien is trying to win hockey games.

you fail to point out that, with PK leading the team in PK ice time, habs had among the leagues best PK's in the league 2 years ago...

MT's idea of "winning hockey games" doesn't involve playing his norris winning dman 25+min/night as every other coach in the league does with their stud dmen.

but it does involve DD getting 17+min despite being a flat out zero accross the board, or playing bouillion, an ahl level dman not likely to get more than 10min/game in spot duty with most other teams, 15+min of ice time despite multiple gaffes.

winning hockey games is either something MT doesn't want bad enough, or doesn't really understand how to achieve effectively (i.e, playing your best player as much as you can).

 

[TheGoalJudge]

you fail to point out that, with PK leading the team in PK ice time, habs had among the leagues best PK's in the league 2 years ago...

MT's idea of "winning hockey games" doesn't involve playing his norris winning dman 25+min/night as every other coach in the league does with their stud dmen.

but it does involve DD getting 17+min despite being a flat out zero accross the board, or playing bouillion, an ahl level dman not likely to get more than 10min/game in spot duty with most other teams, 15+min of ice time despite multiple gaffes.

winning hockey games is either something MT doesn't want bad enough, or doesn't really understand how to achieve effectively (i.e, playing your best player as much as you can).

Actually there are quite a few good defensemen who play under 25 minutes. Chara, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, Letang, etc.

But anyways, if you want to say Therrien doesn't play Subban enough because he's a bad coach, perhaps I'd agree. If you want to say he doesn't play Subban enough because of some other reasons which are not hockey related, well, I don't know what to say to that.

 

[Saundies]

PK Subban was 2nd in the entire NHL last year in PP time. 1st place was Kovalchuk. PK Subban spent all that time with Andrei Markov, one of the best PP QBs in the league.

Last year, PK Subban was 7th worst in GA/60 minutes of penalty kill time among defensemen who played 40 games or more. So Therrien took him off the penalty kill and let him have more PP minutes.

This was in stark contrast to what Jacques Martin did, who opted to give Subban more PK time and less PP time.

So I'm not seeing how Therrien was hurting Subban. Meanwhile, Therrien is trying to win hockey games.

Man, stop using PP time as an example. I'm not talking about PP, I'm talking about even strength and PK situations. You're trying to tell me that if Subban played 5-6 minutes of PK time that he would be tired come the powerplay? The guy is a horse. He could play 30 minutes a night and not even blink, judging by the shape he's in. Yet he doesn't play any PK time at all. He's not put out in key situations where we need to hold a lead. Why? Tell me that.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

Man, stop using PP time as an example. I'm not talking about PP, I'm talking about even strength and PK situations. You're trying to tell me that if Subban played 5-6 minutes of PK time that he would be tired come the powerplay? The guy is a horse. He could play 30 minutes a night and not even blink, judging by the shape he's in. Yet he doesn't play any PK time at all. He's not put out in key situations where we need to hold a lead. Why? Tell me that.

Because he's black. Obviously.

 

[Miller Time]

Actually there are quite a few good defensemen who play under 25 minutes. Chara, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, Letang, etc.

But anyways, if you want to say Therrien doesn't play Subban enough because he's a bad coach, perhaps I'd agree. If you want to say he doesn't play Subban enough because of some other reasons which are not hockey related, well, I don't know what to say to that.

could it possibly be that the very thing that makes him a bad coach is that he lets personal bias/emotions get in the way or making sound hockey judgements?

 

[Saundies]

Because he's black. Obviously.

Yeah, because I didn't just say literally 3 posts ago that I didn't think racism is the reason for it. Nice try at sarcasm, though.

Bottom line is, if I'm coaching a hockey team at any level and one of my players win "Best Defenseman" of the entire league the year before, he's my go to guy in any situation the next year. He's playing PP and PK. He's gonna be on the ice when we need a goal and when we need to defend a goal. I'm gonna use him as an example for all of my other D to follow. It's just common sense for it to be that way, with everyone except Michel "PK had a good year, but still has a lot to learn" Therrien.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

Yeah, because I didn't just say literally 3 posts ago that I didn't think racism is the reason for it. Nice try at sarcasm, though.

Bottom line is, if I'm coaching a hockey team at any level and one of my players win "Best Defenseman" of the entire league the year before, he's my go to guy in any situation the next year. He's playing PP and PK. He's gonna be on the ice when we need a goal and when we need to defend a goal. I'm gonna use him as an example for all of my other D to follow. It's just common sense for it to be that way, with everyone except Michel "PK had a good year, but still has a lot to learn" Therrien.

So you agree with me and not Brian Wilde's article, which is the point of this thread. Great.

 

[Saundies]

Ya but they're going to have to give all that money to Subban! They'd rather fold the team than pay Subban!

So you agree with me and not Brian Wilde's article, which is the point of this thread. Great.

No, I'm defending myself because you took a shot at the point I was trying to make earlier about not wanting to pay him his money. I do think THIS is more likely to be the valid reason, not racism.

 

[CaptainBenn]

An interview Therrien gave as coach of the Penguins. Tell me if you see anything familiar.



Therrien hates Russians too!

Where did you get that?

 

[Drifting]

I'm sorry but these Subban threads should be locked. This board is doing its best to fuel these non-existent story lines.

We are constantly discussing things that are not being created by the Canadiens themselves. We are drawing conclusions from things the coach isn't saying about Subban. This is just beyond absurd. It's tabloid level gossip.

Now we're turning a made up issue into a race issue. It's a train headed off the tracks and it has nothing to do with PK or the Habs and everything to do with the fans and media. Disgusting and shameful.

I mean, we're really blowing up about racism and PK leaving in a couple years because the coach doesn't say enough nice things about him and because he didn't play 60 minutes last game? Is this for real?

This is not an NOT an issue made up on these threads. It's all over the place - blogs, radio shows, interviews. Sometimes where there's smoke...

 

[deandebean]

I wouldn't say it's based on racism, I'd say it's all based on the fact that the Habs brass knows they're going to have to break the bank to sign PK this offseason and they're trying everything they can to make it so he doesn't get the money he's going to want. They know because he won a Norris and based on his talent that he's going to want top dollar (Over 7 mil per season) and they want to be able to say "yes, but this year you weren't very good, many mistakes, etc" and bring that contract down. They did the exact same thing with the bridge contract when he easily deserved at least the 5 mil/year he was asking for then and they're doing it again now. It's bull.

Sam Pollock did the same to Guy Lafleur. Don't ever think that the Montreal Canadiens has been an organisation that has paid immensely its true superstars.

This being said, PK is not at that level yet, and the management team is trying to downplay his spectacular play, because PK's play doesn't always mesh with the game plan. Case and point tonight. They want to play a tight checking game on the road, with some crazy pressure in the o-zone, but the last thing the coaching staff wants is a defenceman caught deep in the o-zone, like on the second goal. That's the type of pinching that kills coaches and management. Sure, he got a goal, but in order for PK to have a complete game, he needs to realize when and HOW he pinches. Problem is, he still hasn't figured out this part yet.

 

[Drifting]

You know what I hate about all this? People here tends to think that Therrien being hard on Subban is bad. Subban is still young and can play at an higher level than he's playing right now. We all know it. He's still need some teaching and him being a special gifted player will always brings situation like this. People constantly questioning Therrien's methods on Subban only makes me wonder if it's because they have low self esteem. Subban is mentally strong enough to react well about this.

Being criticized is part of everyody's life. It's how you react to them that is important.

And there's nothing to indicate that Subban does not react well to being coached. People question Therrien's methods because they are old-fashioned and ineffective plus it's obvious that his approach with Subban is not only about teaching or coaching.

 

[Banjo Cat]

could it possibly be that the very thing that makes him a bad coach is that he lets personal bias/emotions get in the way or making sound hockey judgements?

Sure, it certainly could be. But if it is, and what those personal biases are, we have no way of knowing.

 

[habsfanatics*]

PK Subban was 2nd in the entire NHL last year in PP time. 1st place was Kovalchuk. PK Subban spent all that time with Andrei Markov, one of the best PP QBs in the league.

Last year, PK Subban was 7th worst in GA/60 minutes of penalty kill time among defensemen who played 40 games or more. So Therrien took him off the penalty kill and let him have more PP minutes.

This was in stark contrast to what Jacques Martin did, who opted to give Subban more PK time and less PP time.

So I'm not seeing how Therrien was hurting Subban. Meanwhile, Therrien is trying to win hockey games.

Since you obviously have no clue about the statistics you're using. I'll clear the air for you. PK's numbers last year were 100% due to small sample size, not enough games to conclude anything. IN extremly limited icetime pk's numbers were bad on the pk last year, but he was the absolute best befire that, two years running.

Stats are good if you know how to use them, you don't.

I'm really drunk, sorry for this

 

[Banjo Cat]

If winning was everything, Desharnais and Briere would not be on the team, and Subban would be playing 27-30 minutes a game.

How does Subban not playing 27-30 minutes a game help their marketting? Maybe he should be playing 27-30 minutes a game. But I don't think they are playing him less than that based on some other agenda. There is little to be gained by it.

 

[Drifting]

I dunno. I remember last year, Grapes showing video of the low fives and saying that he had actually told Subban early on to tone it down. That kind of stuff isn't appropriate in the NHL. Then he showed more recent video of the more toned down approach that Subban and Carey had implemented and of course he patted himself on the back for being responsible. Along those lines, when Yakupov scored his first goal and did a half ice slide on his knees, again, Grapes showed the clip and went on and on about how this is the NHL, not roller hockey, or something to that effect. The point is, the old school NHL guys don't like show boating and flamboyance (just look at Grapes), no matter what color your skin is. So, I don't think it's a racism thing. Hell, he won the Norris after all (yes, I know it's the writers who vote), so, it's not like he doesn't get any respect around the league.

The rest of it, how he's being treated by the local press and by MT is a separate matter, but I think the showboating is simply something that would be reigned in no matter what color he was because if it wasn't he'd end up being targeted by those who don't like show boating.

Completely not true because I never ever heard about Grapes having an issue with Tiger Williams riding his stick rodeo style after scoring or Theo Fleury sliding the entire length of the ice scoring. As long as the celebrating is done by good old Canadian boys (especially fighters like Tiger Williams) Grapes has no issue. But when a player not fitting Grapes' mould, like Subban (colour) or Yakupov (Russian, European) only then is it disrepectful show boating.

 

[Banjo Cat]

Since you obviously have no clue about the statistics you're using. I'll clear the air for you. PK's numbers last year were 100% due to small sample size, not enough games to conclude anything.
Stats are good if you know how to use them, you don't.

That is a very good point. Is it possible that Therrien is basing his opinion of PK's pk on the sample that he was around for? It may be a mistake. But just because he may well be wrong about this does not mean there is any malicious reason for it.

 

[habsfanatics*]

That is a very good point. Is it possible that Therrien is basing his opinion of PK's pk on the sample that he was around for? It may be a mistake. But just because he may well be wrong about this does not mean there is any malicious reason for it.

No, it just means he's npt a very coach, but we already knew taht.