Rumor: Bo Horvat All Purpose Thread (Part 1)

[Lt Dan]

The thread title is very clear. CBS and VCR are talking about slow smoking brisket.

 

[HuGort]

Horvat is a very good player. I'd say that's more like a 1a/1b center combo than a 1/2.

Anyways, the timing isn't quite right for the Habs and Horvat to be a match.

I also don't think the Habs have deserted the idea of having dach at center in the long run. Gorton was strongly suggesting that dach is more likely a center for the long haul just a few days ago.

Dach never be center. Terrible in faceoffs. Habs need 2c

 

[Viqsi]

The thread title is very clear. CBS and VCR are talking about slow smoking brisket.

now I'm hungry

 

[Luck 6]

We dont need Miller or his contract. Our defensive play is a wreck and he only adds to that. We don't need to be trading valuable assets for ANOTHER winger, especially when we don't even know if KJ is gonna play center or wing.

If there was no such thing as a salary cap or guaranteed contracts I wouldn't mind having Miller here as an experiment. But those are unsurmountable obstacles, and we have other needs to prioritize over the acquisition of Yet Another One-Way Winger.

Miller isn’t a winger. He CAN play wing, but even when he does he usually takes the face off as he is strong on the draw. Miller played C all of last season, and the majority of this season, as that is where he has his most success. If anyone is acquiring him I think they’d be doing so as a center.

 

[Mrfenn92]

The thread title is very clear. CBS and VCR are talking about slow smoking brisket.

That sounds delicious. Now I know what I’m cooking today

 

[Viqsi]

Miller isn’t a winger. He CAN play wing, but even when he does he usually takes the face off as he is strong on the draw. Miller played C all of last season, and the majority of this season, as that is where he has his most success. If anyone is acquiring him I think they’d be doing so as a center.

Wake me when he can handle a center's defensive responsibilities and the term on his contract is reduced to, like, a third of what it currently is.

 

[majormajor]

Roslivic is only 18 months younger than Horvat. Him finding some untapped potential would be a surprise at this point.

Roslovic scored 45 last year while spending half the year on the 4th line. 50 pts is absolutely not a stretch for him and neither is 60.

He is a crap defensive player though and the Jackets might want to move him to make cap room for next year.

My question is what is Vancouver’s plan? Flip Horvat and maybe someone else and try to do a quicker retool? Or do a more more serious rebuild and plan on sucking this season and next?

I don’t know that the CBJ have the pieces they are willing to give up for a retool/get better quickly kind of offer.

The Jackets have picks and prospects, so we could make a pretty good rebuild offer. Because of the Werenski injury, the Jackets wouldn’t have to send cap back, so the Canucks could have the cap to use for other moves. We are not moving Jiricek, Johnson, Sillinger, or our 2023 1st, but we can still put together an attractive offer that probably beats anything else being offered. Plus we are an Eastern conference team.

So here is an offer for an extended Horvat:

CBJ 2024 1st (top 3 protected)
Corson Ceulemans - I am high on Ceulemans and don’t want to move him. I figure he will be signed after Wisconsin’s season, play in the AHL and mostly be an AHLer next year, and be an NHL player in 24-25. I think he will be a solid 2nd pair right D. He has good size (6’2”). He is from Saskatchewan so Vancouver is closer to his family than Columbus.
Dmitry Voronkov - He is a big forward (6’4”) who gets shafted with minutes in the KHL because his team knows he wants to go to North America. He projects as a 3rd or 4th liner who will bring grit and size.
Samuel Knazko - Left D that dropped farther than many expected in the 2020 draft. He has 10 points in 12 games in the AHL this season. Not a guy I would want to trade, but you can’t fall in love with a guy who projects to be your third pair left D (behind Werenski and Mateychuk).

I believe I saw someone show that Voronkov has actually played decent minutes in the KHL. He just isn't scoring. Still probably a scary 4C and the package you suggested seems good and loaded regardless.

 

[Luck 6]

Wake me when he can handle a center's defensive responsibilities and the term on his contract is reduced to, like, a third of what it currently is.

Miller gets a bit of a bad rap in that regard. Most of the time Miller is passable defensively, it’s just once in a while he’ll have a stupid give away by making a high risk pass or something like that. THATS the main knock on Miller.

His contract isn’t bad. 7 years at 8mil for Miller is much better than Gaudreau at 8 years for 9.75mil, and CBJ seemed happy with that. Miller has 10 goals at 17 points in 18 games so far this season, I really don’t understand the hate on this guy.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Wake me when he can handle a center's defensive responsibilities and the term on his contract is reduced to, like, a third of what it currently is.

Your management group had zero issue giving Johnny Gaudreau a similar contract so for all intents and purposes, Miller to Columbus wouldn't appear to be an issue for the people actually making the decisions.

 

[jonlin]

LOL. Horvat can easily get a 1st back.

Yes, but a very late 1st. It`s not like a basement team trades a lotterypick in a very good draft for a 2C, whos going UFA.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

The Vancouver leaks are exhausting and seemingly intentional.

 

[Dr Amazing]

Newhook just scored last game so his trade value went up so a 1st and Newhook for Horvat.

 

[Youngguns1380]

Miller gets a bit of a bad rap in that regard. Most of the time Miller is passable defensively, it’s just once in a while he’ll have a stupid give away by making a high risk pass or something like that. THATS the main knock on Miller.

His contract isn’t bad. 7 years at 8mil for Miller is much better than Gaudreau at 8 years for 9.75mil, and CBJ seemed happy with that. Miller has 10 goals at 17 points in 18 games so far this season, I really don’t understand the hate on this guy.

Just to be clear JG was signed for 7 years not 8 for starters.

I would still take JG over Miller, whether it’s perception or reality, he has his locker room/team interactions, defensive lapses that follow him around. Also he is a Pittsburgh guy and a majority of CBJ fans don’t like Pittsburgh (fandom).

 

[Crede777]

There are seasons beyond this season tho? Perhaps getting Horvat and re-signing him, and having a good centre for Laine and Gudreau could be............good?

That's true but if that 1st turns into Bedard, Michkov, Fantilli, or Carlson that's... better than Horvat if not next year then almost certainly in 2024.

I think Horvat and Miller are very good players l and I don't think Vancouver should trade them away for pennies. But unless Gaudreau is in Jarmo's office telling him he didn't sign on for a bottom feeder and something HAS to be done, I really don't think it makes sense for the CBJ to be giving up strong futures in a year where they're currently near the bottom and have key players injured for a significant portion of the season.

 

[Viqsi]

Your management group had zero issue giving Johnny Gaudreau a similar contract so for all intents and purposes, Miller to Columbus wouldn't appear to be an issue for the people actually making the decisions.

You're kind of undermining your own point. We already have Gaudreau and Laine. That niche is filled.

* * *​

Miller gets a bit of a bad rap in that regard. Most of the time Miller is passable defensively, it’s just once in a while he’ll have a stupid give away by making a high risk pass or something like that. THATS the main knock on Miller.

A higher-scoring version of Jack Roslovic does not address any of the issues we acutally have here.

7 years at 8mil for Miller is much better than Gaudreau at 8 years for 9.75mil

I could not possibly disagree more. Gaudreau is established as a franchise star and has a playing style that ages well. Miller has a couple hot years in Vancouver - only Vancouver - and does not look to be aging well from what I've seen. Plus Gaudreau actually consistently outscores his on-ice opponents. (Also, you got the terms mixed up.)

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

The Vancouver leaks are exhausting and seemingly intentional.

Nobody is leaking shit though, this is all media rumours, it' seemingly legless too.

 

[Ezekial]

If and could are fun words.

 

[Peter Griffin]

You're kind of undermining your own point. We already have Gaudreau and Laine. That niche is filled.

I’ve never seen Gaudreau/Laine play a lick of center so the point you’re trying to make here doesn’t land.

 

[Viqsi]

I’ve never seen Gaudreau/Laine play a lick of center so the point you’re trying to make here doesn’t land.

That's because we're not trying to play wingers as centers and rationalizing it by saying "but look at that faceoff percentage".

 

[Peter Griffin]

That's because we're not trying to play wingers as centers and rationalizing it by saying "but look at that faceoff percentage".

Miller had his best season ever last year playing primarily at center. He’s not a perfect center but he’d be a major upgrade to what Columbus is trotting out.

 

[BCNate]

Roslivic is only 18 months younger than Horvat. Him finding some untapped potential would be a surprise at this point.

I'd say Horvat has certainly found some untapped potential over the past 18 months. He was 22 goals 45 points last year, so to say he has upside of 25/50 certainly is not unreasonable. He has strugeled this year though.

 

[Viqsi]

Miller had his best season ever last year playing primarily at center.

And still was miserable defensively, and exhibiting a skillset that would be a better fit as a winger.

Seriously, you're not getting it. We have Gaudreau and Laine. Expensive one-way players are no longer welcome here. That position is filled. More than filled. There is no more room. It doesn't matter if he pretends to be a center if he can't handle the defensive responsibilities, because defensive competence is what we need. It doesn't matter if he had a good year last year because we already have that covered. The salary cap and guaranteed contracts are still a thing, so Miller is not a viable option. Period. Full stop. End of debate. If he was the sort of player we needed there would be zero talk whatsoever about the Canucks trading him.

 

[Youngguns1380]

I’ve never seen Gaudreau/Laine play a lick of center so the point you’re trying to make here doesn’t land.

We have a plethora of wingers, who also can play Center. The CBJ hasn’t had a legitimate 1C in 22 years. That is the problem the CBJ org faces.

Boone J. (truthfully a 2nd or 3rd line winger) is playing 1C because he is very good at face-offs (also defensively sound) sound familiar with that comparison to Miller playing center taking face-offs, but not as defensively sound.

 

[Peter Griffin]

And still was miserable defensively, and exhibiting a skillset that would be a better fit as a winger.

Seriously, you're not getting it. We have Gaudreau and Laine. Expensive one-way players are no longer welcome here. That position is filled. More than filled. There is no more room. It doesn't matter if he pretends to be a center if he can't handle the defensive responsibilities, because defensive competence is what we need. It doesn't matter if he had a good year last year because we already have that covered. The salary cap and guaranteed contracts are still a thing, so Miller is not a viable option. Period. Full stop. End of debate. If he was the sort of player we needed there would be zero talk whatsoever about the Canucks trading him.

Good luck in your search for a #1 center then. Weird that Horvat is being mentioned as a target though, he’s not exactly the defensive center Columbus apparently covets either.

 

[Viqsi]

Good luck in your search for a #1 center then. Weird that Horvat is being mentioned as a target though, he’s not exactly the defensive center Columbus covets either.

We know he's not a specialist, but he's at least competent, which is more than can be said for his Pittsburgh-raised teammate.

EDIT: Also worth noting for the record: attempting to suggest that Horvat and Miller are comparable defensively doesn't make us go "oh, well, gee golly gosh, I guess we should be asking about Miller instead then, a-hyuck." The response instead becomes "oh, okay, guess that means no deals for any Canucks then, seeya."