Proposal: Blues & Devils

[tmg]

Zacha is the only forward the Devils have taken as a top-10-overall pick since Bill Guerin 1989. I do not believe they part with him for a player one year from UFA and lesser parts. Even if the value is 'fair' - Shattenkirk probably should fetch a prospect on par valuewise with Zacha - they'll get that from a team who will be using Shattenkirk to take a run at the cup, not a team that is in as much need as any team in league history to start developing its own forward talent from within.

 

[Eric Sachs]

Zacha is the only forward the Devils have taken as a top-10-overall pick since Bill Guerin 1989. I do not believe they part with him for a player one year from UFA and lesser parts. Even if the value is 'fair' - Shattenkirk probably should fetch a prospect on par valuewise with Zacha - they'll get that from a team who will be using Shattenkirk to take a run at the cup, not a team that is in as much need as any team in league history to start developing its own forward talent from within.

holy hyperbole.

our forward group is more than fine right now. way more worried about our defense than our forwards.

 

[Spektre]

holy hyperbole.

our forward group is more than fine right now. way more worried about our defense than our forwards.

I thought post trade NJ lines would be:

Hall Henrique Smith-Pelly
Cammalleri Zajac Palmieri
Boucher Sobotka Bennett
Josefson Fiddler Kalinin

Greene Shattenkirk
Moore Severson
Merrill Lovejoy


Maybe the def gets shuffled around some but that's a base anyway. I figure Barbashev is a year from playing in the NHL although I could see him being a call up this year.

With McLeod probably a year away as well the following year NJ would have both Barbashev & McLeod pushing for top 9 spots. It seems that's a pretty good crop of forwards.

Like you when I look at NJ's def that seems to be a pretty major weakness. Currently they're probably bringing up Santini. The 6 def looks a lot better with Shattenkirk than without.

It's possible that NJ wouldn't trade Zacha for hardly anything. Obviously I don't know how their mgt feels about it. I think the deal could wind up helping both clubs out overall.

Personally I'd love for the Blues to keep Sobotka longer term but given the history between he and Armstrong I doubt that he'll resign with the Blues.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I agree with this guy, he seems like a very overrated prospect to have gone 6th overall without even being a PPG player in the OHL.. am I missing something here? I don't know how he went 6th overall in general.

he had 114 points in 100 career OHL games, including the playoffs. He was pretty much ranked anywhere from 6-10 IIRC with a few DMen around there. where should he have been taken, exactly?

Zacha is the only forward the Devils have taken as a top-10-overall pick since Bill Guerin 1989. I do not believe they part with him for a player one year from UFA and lesser parts. Even if the value is 'fair' - Shattenkirk probably should fetch a prospect on par valuewise with Zacha - they'll get that from a team who will be using Shattenkirk to take a run at the cup, not a team that is in as much need as any team in league history to start developing its own forward talent from within.

seems like you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about

 

[AfroThunder396]

To be frank, I find Barbashev to be quite overrated. I have little interest in him or Sobotka.

I'm interested in Shattenkirk, but not without a contract and not at the cost of Zacha. I suppose the value is fair but it's not the right pieces to entice me.

 

[Fear the Wushu]

Zacha has the highest PPG in NHL History, if we are dealing him your probably going to have to part ways with Tarasenko, Pietrangelo, a kings ransom, and your best prospect.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

To be honest, this is not the type of trade NJ should be doing this year. Best case scenario Cory Schneider takes a year off to rest and NJ gets a top 5 pick playing in front of garbage goaltending.

 

[tmg]

seems like you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about

Maybe my choice of words was a little hyperbolic, but the point remains: this team went 25 years without drafting a forward with a top 10 pick (1990 thru 2014). Has any other team since the inception of the entry draft gone 25 years without using a top-10-pick on a forward? (That's the thought behind my historical note - I believe it is an unprecedented stretch that no other team has matched, going so long without picking a forward so close to the top of the draft). This is a team that has seldom had blue chip forward prospects at that young an age. But after a 25 year fast, they finally have a top-10 pick that they used on a forward. It's a rare thing in this org to have a player that high in immediate pedigree. I do not believe they give that rare player up for what may be a temporary improvement at a time when they don't need temporary improvement as much as they need sustained growth and youth.

 

[Rebels57]

St. Louis says no and aims for a better C prospect with an extended Shattenkirk.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Maybe my choice of words was a little hyperbolic, but the point remains: this team went 25 years without drafting a forward with a top 10 pick (1990 thru 2014). Has any other team since the inception of the entry draft gone 25 years without using a top-10-pick on a forward? (That's the thought behind my historical note - I believe it is an unprecedented stretch that no other team has matched, going so long without picking a forward so close to the top of the draft). This is a team that has seldom had blue chip forward prospects at that young an age. But after a 25 year fast, they finally have a top-10 pick that they used on a forward. It's a rare thing in this org to have a player that high in immediate pedigree. I do not believe they give that rare player up for what may be a temporary improvement at a time when they don't need temporary improvement as much as they need sustained growth and youth.

Detroit hasn't picked a forward in the top 10 since Martin Lapointe in 1991. and he was 10th overall.

 

[Fear the Wushu]

St. Louis says no and aims for a better C prospect with an extended Shattenkirk.

Good luck in your search finding a better C prospect than Zacha that is available.

edit: I imagine Zacha is not available unless its for massive overpayment. He is the future of the Devils forward corps.

 

[Stuzchuk]

I don't really think people realize how good of a prospect Zacha is and what a great player he will become. But that's fine with us though. Us Devils fans are used to those kind of things.

The Devils are not trading Zacha. He's a player we're building around.

so was Svitov, Brule, Barker & Filatov...

StL decline

 

[Gavy]

Zacha doesn't have close to that much value.

NJ takes that before STL comes to their senses

 

[westc2]

he had 114 points in 100 career OHL games, including the playoffs. He was pretty much ranked anywhere from 6-10 IIRC with a few DMen around there. where should he have been taken, exactly?



seems like you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about

Getting a lot of points in the OHL doesn't meam much in the NHL.

Just to compare a recent Blues prospect in minor pro leagues... Jaskin had 91 points in 51 games in the QMJHL, which is pretty comparable to the OHL. And now he's got 33 points in 139 NHL games and can't even crack the top 9 of the current Blues team.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Getting a lot of points in the OHL doesn't meam much in the NHL.

Just to compare a recent Blues prospect in minor pro leagues... Jaskin had 91 points in 51 games in the QMJHL, which is pretty comparable to the OHL. And now he's got 33 points in 139 NHL games and can't even crack the top 9 of the current Blues team.

And players who don't put up a ton of points in the CHL (Getzlaf) translate better to the NHL.

 

[Eric Sachs]

I thought post trade NJ lines would be:

Hall Henrique Smith-Pelly
Cammalleri Zajac Palmieri
Boucher Sobotka Bennett
Josefson Fiddler Kalinin

Greene Shattenkirk
Moore Severson
Merrill Lovejoy


Maybe the def gets shuffled around some but that's a base anyway. I figure Barbashev is a year from playing in the NHL although I could see him being a call up this year.

With McLeod probably a year away as well the following year NJ would have both Barbashev & McLeod pushing for top 9 spots. It seems that's a pretty good crop of forwards.

Like you when I look at NJ's def that seems to be a pretty major weakness. Currently they're probably bringing up Santini. The 6 def looks a lot better with Shattenkirk than without.

It's possible that NJ wouldn't trade Zacha for hardly anything. Obviously I don't know how their mgt feels about it. I think the deal could wind up helping both clubs out overall.

Personally I'd love for the Blues to keep Sobotka longer term but given the history between he and Armstrong I doubt that he'll resign with the Blues.

I don't think Zacha is untouchable or anything. I'd move him in the right deal. I just wouldn't move both Zacha and McLeod in the same deal most likely. Hard to give up all the top end forward talent we have at the same time.

I'd heavily consider the deal in the OP. If Shatty is extended, it's really something that we might just not be able to turn down. I think you can probably take Sobotka off the deal and it won't change much from our side.. I think that's a fairer deal overall anyways. It mostly revolves around whether the Devils think Shatty solves their right-side long-term and is worth losing one of the few potential premium talents in their system. The second pick isn't concerning much either as we have multiple the next two years.

 

[Evestay]

I don't think Zacha is untouchable or anything. I'd move him in the right deal. I just wouldn't move both Zacha and McLeod in the same deal most likely. Hard to give up all the top end forward talent we have at the same time.

I'd heavily consider the deal in the OP. If Shatty is extended, it's really something that we might just not be able to turn down. I think you can probably take Sobotka off the deal and it won't change much from our side.. I think that's a fairer deal overall anyways. It mostly revolves around whether the Devils think Shatty solves their right-side long-term and is worth losing one of the few potential premium talents in their system. The second pick isn't concerning much either as we have multiple the next two years.

From the Blues perspective, do you really need Barb to make the deal? Would rather take off both him and your 2nd and just make it Shatty for Zacha.

 

[Eric Sachs]

From the Blues perspective, do you really need Barb to make the deal? Would rather take off both him and your 2nd and just make it Shatty for Zacha.

Less enticing as Barb for a 2nd did give us some more value in the deal (Barb has more value than a 2nd). I think that's an option but possibly put Sobotka back in.

I think the point is that a base of Shatty for Zacha can work for both teams.. it really depends on the contract Shatty wants to sign here and what the Devils long-term plans are with Zacha.

 

[VoidCreature]

Less enticing as Barb for a 2nd did give us some more value in the deal (Barb has more value than a 2nd). I think that's an option but possibly put Sobotka back in.

I think the point is that a base of Shatty for Zacha can work for both teams.. it really depends on the contract Shatty wants to sign here and what the Devils long-term plans are with Zacha.

Why would we trade Zacha for Shattenkirk when we can just wait for him to hit UFA and sign him without having to give up anything?

His age doesn't fit with Shero's plans anyway. If it's just signing him, that could work out. But I wouldn't give up anything for him.

We'r still 2 or 3 years away from making win now moves like that.

 

[Eric Sachs]

Why would we trade Zacha for Shattenkirk when we can just wait for him to hit UFA and sign him without having to give up anything?

His age doesn't fit with Shero's plans anyway. If it's just signing him, that could work out. But I wouldn'twouldn't give up anything for him.

We'r still 2 or 3 years away from making win now moves like that.

That's piss poor logic. Why do you assume he will hit UFA? Why can't he get traded to another team and re-signed there like this deal proposes? Or re-sign with the Blues? Why do you assume he will sign with the Devils in UFA?

If you want a Shattenkirk and there's a deal in place that guarantees that, it very well can be worth avoiding the risk of not getting that player in UFA. It happens quite frequently in the NHL and assuming a player will hit UFA is foolish. Not to mention that the exclusive negotiating rights are quite valuable considering you don't have to compete against 30 other teams, which can keep the $$$ lower.

Waiting for things to fall in your lap and hopefully work out is a poor strategy as a GM.

It's not really a win-now move when he would come with a long-term extension, either.

 

[VoidCreature]

That's piss poor logic. Why do you assume he will hit UFA? Why can't he get traded to another team and re-signed there like this deal proposes? Or re-sign with the Blues? Why do you assume he will sign with the Devils in UFA?

If you want a Shattenkirk and there's a deal in place that guarantees that, it very well can be worth avoiding the risk of not getting that player in UFA. It happens quite frequently in the NHL and assuming a player will hit UFA is foolish. Not to mention that the exclusive negotiating rights are quite valuable considering you don't have to compete against 30 other teams, which can keep the $$$ lower.

Waiting for things to fall in your lap and hopefully work out is a poor strategy as a GM.

It's not really a win-now move when he would come with a long-term extension, either.

He'll be 28 next season. That's too old for Shero's parameters when we're talking about giving him term.

We'll bring in players like him at the right time, when we're trying to win the cup.

Shero's being very, very careful not to commit term to someone at risk of decline. Agree with it or not, that's how we're playing this.

Besides, Zacha should be almost untouchable. He has the potential to be really, really good for us for the next 15+ years, not just the next 7.

 

[BA Carroll]

Less enticing as Barb for a 2nd did give us some more value in the deal (Barb has more value than a 2nd). I think that's an option but possibly put Sobotka back in.

I think the point is that a base of Shatty for Zacha can work for both teams.. it really depends on the contract Shatty wants to sign here and what the Devils long-term plans are with Zacha.

Just out of curiosity, as a Devils fan, which would you view as a more palatable deal for Shattenkirk?

-Zacha +2nd
Or
-McLeod +1st?

I would have to imagine the Blues would covet Zacha more, just because he's NHL ready.

 

[Eric Sachs]

He'll be 28 next season. That's too old for Shero's parameters when we're talking about giving him term.

We'll bring in players like him at the right time, when we're trying to win the cup.

Shero's being very, very careful not to commit term to someone at risk of decline. Agree with it or not, that's how we're playing this.

Besides, Zacha should be almost untouchable. He has the potential to be really, really good for us for the next 15+ years, not just the next 7.

I don't see it the same way. He hasn't given out that contract in UFA but there's been no elite talent available either. There's a big difference between giving a Shattenkirk a long-term deal at age 28 and giving a Kris Russell a long-term deal at age 28.

and you don't build a team for the next 15 years. If Shero thinks Shattenkirk helps us more over the next ~5 years than Zacha would, he will make that deal. He's not going to be the GM of this team in 10 years, he's not worried about then. We have an elite goaltender that makes it very much worthwhile to contend sooner rather than later so it's certainly a deal I would consider. This is especially given the Hall trade.. it's not something I'd have considered prior to that. We still need offense but our biggest limiting factor going forward is certainly on defense. If Shero thinks this is an opportunity to solve a huge part of that problem, it's worth losing Zacha.

not to mention, the deal in the OP is for more than just Shattenkirk. Barbashev returns us some value and helps offset that loss a little bit, though he's not nearly as good of a prospect.

Just out of curiosity, as a Devils fan, which would you view as a more palatable deal for Shattenkirk?

-Zacha +2nd
Or
-McLeod +1st?

I would have to imagine the Blues would covet Zacha more, just because he's NHL ready.

Shattenkirk (extended, otherwise no shot for anything you listed outside the 2nd pick) straight up? Probably neither. The most I'd consider is Zacha alone but as I said above, I'd like some value coming back with that as well.

I wouldn't do the second deal at all though. That is potentially two premium assets and we can't afford that.

The deal in the OP (minus Sobotka) is pretty much on the money for me as I'm going back and forth whether I'd do it. Without that extra value coming back to us, it's likely a certain no.

 

[carter333167]

I'd be happy to get either Zacha or McLeod straight up for Shatty (pretty sure Shatty would extend with NJ as well) but, considering that Armstrong couldn't even engineer a trade at the draft, nothing suggests that he either could engineer this trade and/or that he would be willing to engineer this trade.

Keeping Shatty for Hitch's last hoorah (Hitch's last run at a Cup) and letting him walk for nothing is not a horrible outcome in Armstrong's mind. Is it poor asset management for the future? Yep...but DA doesn't think in that fashion.

 

[Spektre]

I'd be happy to get either Zacha or McLeod straight up for Shatty (pretty sure Shatty would extend with NJ as well) but, considering that Armstrong couldn't even engineer a trade at the draft, nothing suggests that he either could engineer this trade and/or that he would be willing to engineer this trade.

Keeping Shatty for Hitch's last hoorah (Hitch's last run at a Cup) and letting him walk for nothing is not a horrible outcome in Armstrong's mind. Is it poor asset management for the future? Yep...but DA doesn't think in that fashion.

I'm all on board with thinking Army is a derelict. We can't assume to know what his thinking is. I actually believe what Army said about he was asking for too much in trying to trade Shattenkirk at the draft. The derelict part comes into play when he wouldn't budge from the asking price.

JR recently talked about the fact Army didn't want to let assets walk for nothing in free agency. He didn't point to a discussion with Army but it was inferred.