Blue Jays Discussion: Blue Jays fire manager Montoyo, Schneider takes over

[Eyedea]

God Simmons just loves to be a contrarian doesn't he?

This better result in some damn lineup changes. Enough with the human whiff machine in the 2 hole. I want either Gurriel or Kirk in that spot. Vlad has been relatively solid but he'd probably be better off with some actual protection in the lineup. Bo can have his spot back when he shows he can take a pitch or two.

Springer
Gurriel/Kirk
Vlad
Kirk/Gurriel
Teoscar
Bo
Espinal
Chapman
Tapia

Everything about Bo's advanced stats screams mediocre. Average WRC+, average OPS, exploding k rate (currently higher now than it was in his first foray into the Majors in 2019)

With his BB% being actually ever so slightly higher than last season it definitely seems like pitchers have him figured out. Bait him with pitches on the outer corner of the plate and watch him fall for it.

If you're going to move Bo, you should probably move Springer too who hasn't been very effective in the leadoff spot over the last month or so. But now couldn't be the time to move Bo, right? He's been hitting much better over the last couple of weeks and cutting his o-swing down significantly and making the 2nd most contact on the team behind Espinal. Yes he still doesn't walk much but he's barreling the ball a lot more frequently and getting it up in the air too. Outside of Gurriel/Teo he's been the only other guy to consistently hit the ball lately and yes this includes Kirky who has been whiffing more and hasn't shown a lick of power.

 

[Eyedea]

Stripling has been the most pleasant surprise of the season so far. Marco Estrada vibes.

I think a lot of us forgot/never realized how good he was pre-2020. There's a reason why a struggling Stripling still commanded a Kendall Williams + Ryan Noda return. All Star in 2018, 1.9 fWAR through 90 innings in 2019. From 2016-2019 his peripheral stats were a close comp to Ryu.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

If you rely on wins to evaluate pitching, you should not post in a baseball forum

It is like it always has been in life in every fascet winners find a way to win and losers find a way to lose .. da truth hurts for most losers

 

[Eyedea]

It is like it always has been in life in every fascet winners find a way to win and losers find a way to lose .. da truth hurts for most losers

You do realize Gausman won more games last season than Ray right?

 

[kb]

I think a lot of us forgot/never realized how good he was pre-2020. There's a reason why a struggling Stripling still commanded a Kendall Williams + Ryan Noda return. All Star in 2018, 1.9 fWAR through 90 innings in 2019. From 2016-2019 his peripheral stats were a close comp to Ryu.

I'm 100% guilty of sleeping on him, but except for small stretches last season, I didn't see the stuff being sharp enough to fool people.

He looks locked in this season and his stuff appears to have more movement and deception.

This rotation would have been headed for disaster without him to keep it afloat during this stretch.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

You do realize Gausman won more games last season than Ray right?

No I didn't ESPN reported in Robbie Ray starts Jays won 25 games and lost 8. He led in ERA, innings pitched, strikeouts, ERA+ and WHIP. He has most team wins after team losses in AL. Won Cy with 29 of 30 votes. And he put up his best games when he played best teams. This is an ACE. We had 2 last year. This year we have 1.

 

[Eyedea]

No I didn't ESPN reported in Robbie Ray starts Jays won 25 games and lost 8. He led in ERA, innings pitched, strikeouts, ERA+ and WHIP. He has most team wins after team losses in AL. Won Cy with 29 of 30 votes. And he put up his best games when he played best teams. This is an ACE. We had 2 last year. This year we have 1.

I'm sorry but Ray didn't win 25 games, it's right there on his record. 13 wins, 7 losses. Gausman went 14-6 with a 2.81 ERA (better than Ray). That is an ACE. Giants won their division and set their franchise record in wins too. Blue Jays were 1 win out of the playoffs. If Ray went 14-6 the Jays would've made the playoffs too.

 

[Discoverer]

No I didn't ESPN reported in Robbie Ray starts Jays won 25 games and lost 8. He led in ERA, innings pitched, strikeouts, ERA+ and WHIP. He has most team wins after team losses in AL. Won Cy with 29 of 30 votes. And he put up his best games when he played best teams. This is an ACE. We had 2 last year. This year we have 1.

You've made it abundantly clear that you don't care about facts, but:

Ray last year - 13-7, 2.84 ERA
Gausman last year - 14-6, 2.81 ERA

 

[Eyedea]

No I didn't ESPN reported in Robbie Ray starts Jays won 25 games and lost 8. He led in ERA, innings pitched, strikeouts, ERA+ and WHIP. He has most team wins after team losses in AL. Won Cy with 29 of 30 votes. And he put up his best games when he played best teams. This is an ACE. We had 2 last year. This year we have 1.

Also what LOL

He had a 1.97 ERA against teams below .500 and a 3.22 against teams >= .500. All of his registered losses were literally against divisional opponents and he carried an 0-3 with a 6.60 ERA against the Yankees. If he won 1 of those games the Jays make the playoffs. His last start of the season (against the Yanks) he carried a 2-1 lead into the 6th and proceeded to give up 4 more runs (3 HRs). What an ACE

 

[phillipmike]

2021:
Jays record when Ray pitched: 17-15

Robbie Ray 2021 Pitching Game Logs | Baseball-Reference.com

Robbie Ray Every game played with complete stats, links to box scores and automated row summing for 2021

www.baseball-reference.com

Giants record when Gasuman pitched: 21-12

Kevin Gausman 2021 Pitching Game Logs | Baseball-Reference.com

Kevin Gausman Every game played with complete stats, links to box scores and automated row summing for 2021

www.baseball-reference.com

Loved Robbie Ray and would have gladly brought him back and I would still take him. But he isn’t vaccinated, re-signing him was a non starter as he would miss all the games in Toronto. Plus he wasn’t willing to sign when the Jays were offering the deal to Gausman.

This is what I posted after both Gausman and Ray signed;

This is what Steve Phillips said;

Ray had bad agents.

Ray’s agent advised that he shouldn’t sign before December 1st (which is when the CBA expired - and after that deals could be he negotiated) and that’s what they told the Jays.

Ray’s agent said that had much bigger offers on the table than the Jays.

Jays said they can’t afford to wait because they could lose on both Gausman and Ray. Jays made the same offer to both and said whoever takes it first, they will sign. Ray’s camp thought they were bluffing and Gausman took it and he was left without the Jays.

Ray’s agent told Ray the Jays are out and now you only have the Seattle offer left in that range so take it now or else you don’t have any offers after December 1st.

Steve Phillips exact words:

"I think the notion of waiting it out and playing it out a little bit, until all the pitchers were off the board, and then we (Ray’s camp) can be the only game in town, i get why there is some level of that can be attractive. But with what everybody else is signing now, and a lot of the money that is available that is being spent, you could be available after the CBA is done, but what money is left, if everyone is spending it now? I think there was a pivot there for them (Ray's camp) after the Gausman deal, realized that they better get a deal now. And it was too late for them (to go back to Toronto)."

Also thinks the agent willfully miscommunicated the message from the Jays front office to Ray which is why we are where we are. The agent thought they could play the Jays for more and gambled and lost the Ray’s number 1 target, Toronto.

“The strategy and tactics on the Ray's camp side really cost them. He doesnt want to be in Seattle, there is no way he wants to be there. He rather be, i think he rather be in Toronto. ... They (Ray's camp) misplayed it".

 

[Discoverer]

2021:
Jays record when Ray pitched: 17-15

But ESPN said the Jays were 25-8!

 

[phillipmike]

But ESPN said the Jays were 25-8!

I must have missed the exchange rate.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

You've made it abundantly clear that you don't care about facts, but:

Ray last year - 13-7, 2.84 ERA
Gausman last year - 14-6, 2.81 ERA

I guess ESPN is f*ll of sh*t in their reporting clearly per your number Gausman had a better ERA than Ray ..

"Ray re-signed with Toronto after the 2020 season with a one-year, $8 million contract. While Ray missed the first two weeks of the 2021 season recovering from an elbow contusion he suffered falling down a set of stairs late in spring training, he posted the best year of his career, leading the league in ERA, innings pitched, strikeouts, ERA+ and WHIP."

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I guess ESPN is f*ll of sh*t in their reporting clearly per your number Gausman had a better ERA than Ray ..

"Ray re-signed with Toronto after the 2020 season with a one-year, $8 million contract. While Ray missed the first two weeks of the 2021 season recovering from an elbow contusion he suffered falling down a set of stairs late in spring training, he posted the best year of his career, leading the league in ERA, innings pitched, strikeouts, ERA+ and WHIP."

OH ok I get it now this guy was a National leaguer and ESPN does some kind of stat to equate the DH between da 2 leagues

 

[Blitzkrug]

I thought King Felix winning the cy young like a decade ago with like a 13-12 record would have put to bed this asinine argument already. But I guess not...

You cannot logically credit a win to a pitcher when he had no actual hand in securing. The Jays may have won 25 (they didn't ) of Ray's starts according to you but how many of those games was his impact considered tangible to the outcome?

Man if only there was a stat to easily track such an outcome..HmMmMmM.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I thought King Felix winning the cy young like a decade ago with like a 13-12 record would have put to bed this asinine argument already. But I guess not...

You cannot logically credit a win to a pitcher when he had no actual hand in securing. The Jays may have won 25 (they didn't ) of Ray's starts according to you but how many of those games was his impact considered tangible to the outcome?

Man if only there was a stat to easily track such an outcome..HmMmMmM.

I am going to back out of this thing as I never owned a bat or a ball or a glove in my life .. I did not realize ESPN was making up these BS advanced stats which I never believe in any of these new stupid analytics .. sorry

 

[Bjindaho]

I am going to back out of this thing as I never owned a bat or a ball or a glove in my life .. I did not realize ESPN was making up these BS advanced stats which I never believe in any of these new stupid analytics .. sorry

They aren't BS, you just can't read

 

[Blitzkrug]

A timeline where "wins" is considered an analytical stat is not a timeline I wish to see or hear about.

 

[phillipmike]

Some very harsh words that needed to be said. Sorry Charlie, you are a nice guy and probably a great bench coach but you have a lot to improve on before becoming a manager again.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Not often you see a player come out and just say "yup it was the right call"

I expected more of Stripling "aw shucks if we just played harder he'd be here" type stuff.

 

[Radiohead]

They aren't BS, you just can't read

He liked this post, so I think you're right:

A timeline where "wins" is considered an analytical stat is not a timeline I wish to see or hear about.

 

[The Nemesis]

OH ok I get it now this guy was a National leaguer and ESPN does some kind of stat to equate the DH between da 2 leagues

That's not what they did. They just use "led the league" to mean specifically the American League because mlb calls it's half-group segments leagues instead of conferences given that they were entirely separated and independent leagues once upon a time and only ever met for the world series

That's also not a thing specific to Espn. That's how all baseball media does it.

Just take the L, man. It appears you read the article wrong, had some incorrect numbers, and made some bad assumptions from it.

It'd also help if you linked to the article you were citing because I cannot find evidence of anything anywhere suggesting Ray or the Jays won 25 games in any shared capacity.

Besides. There's only one pitcher in the last 50 or so years that's won 25 games in a season, and that was 32 years ago.

Plus as was said, credited pitcher wins as a measure of comparative performance are an iffy proposition at the best of times.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Segment of Blue Jays clubhouse felt need for new voice in dugout: ‘it was time’ - The Athletic

Montoyo, 56, was hired before the 2019 season partly because of his player development experience. His even-keeled demeanor steadied the team during two seasons of upheaval, in 2020 and 2021, when the club played home games in three different ballparks and had to move twice in-season. He led his team from 95 losses in 2019 to 91 wins last year. At one time, his optimism and positivity were the needed tone for a young team. But now, amidst underachievement on the field, it seems as though the club needed a firmer touch.

And that, according to sources, didn’t come as naturally to Montoyo, who was fired as manager of the Blue Jays on Wednesday with a record of 236-236 over three-and-half seasons.

“When you’re 1-9, you’re looking for someone to come in and either kick you in the ass or pump you up, just something, some guidance,” one player told The Athletic, making reference to the Jays’ recent skid. “And you could have it as players, for sure, and we did, but you really do need it coming from the top and that just wasn’t happening.”

.....................

Montoyo, who declined comment when reached by phone, remained well-regarded by his players. Speaking after the game Wednesday, Vladimir Guerrero Jr., who was close to Montoyo, said through team translator Hector Lebron that learning of his firing was a surprise and that it was “very, very emotional for me.”

But according to sources, there was a belief within some corners of the clubhouse that the firing was necessary because of a lack of leadership from the former manager. Regarding the dismissal, one player conceded that it “maybe felt like it was time.”

The season hasn’t been a wash by any means. The Blue Jays are in a playoff spot, but just barely. There are players underperforming their track records. There are flaws in the way the roster has been constructed. The blame for the club’s underwhelming performance has to be shouldered by the front office, the coaches and team staff, and the players themselves.

Often in these scenarios, it’s the manager who takes the brunt of the blame, and while he is by no means entirely responsible, when you’re at the helm of a roster as talented as the Blue Jays is, if it underperforms, the questions will come. Some of those questions, it seems, came from within.

“You have to look at yourself as players, too,” said the player, who was granted anonymity to speak candidly about the situation. “If we were playing better, this wouldn’t have been as much of an issue, but we weren’t, so you’re looking for leadership and a lot of us felt like it wasn’t really there.”

 

[EpochLink]

Baltimore is creeping up now.

f***, the wild card is gonna be nuts.
Thank goodness it’s been moved to 3 teams.

 

[Blitzkrug]

I'm really, really impressed with how far the O's have come in a short span.

Adley being called up was supposed to be a glimpse of what was to come, not actually jumpstart a playoff run lol.

Likable bunch of guys too between Mullins and Mancini.

Disclaimer: my man crush on Cedric Mullins may or may not be related to the fact his cards always, and I mean always pound ass in Diamond Dynasty for me. The whole being a great player while having Crohn's helped too.