Blue Jays Discussion: Blue Jays fire manager Montoyo, Schneider takes over

[Eyedea]

Definitely not "tearing the cover off the ball" but when your starting 2B and SS have put up a combined ~50 wRC+ so far this year...

Anyone in the central a championship contender? I think the Jays should rack up some wins against these AL Central teams coming up.

Twins have one of the best offenses so far this season to go along with an above average rotation (and bottom tier bullpen), but I believe I remember the broadcast mentioning they've had one of the easiest schedules to date. For reference they're 16-6 against their division, 6-5 against the East, 7-6 against the West, and 0-2 in interleague games.

White Sox are underachieving and likely have the best potential there but now Anderson is out (but Robert likely returns). I still think the Guardians are an interesting group but there's been worrying trends from their starting rotation which makes them unlikely to contenders. Overall they're still the weakest division in my mind.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Anyone in the central a championship contender? I think the Jays should rack up some wins against these AL Central teams coming up.

Not sure about being a legitimate contender, but the Twins are pretty solid if healthy. A big if, though, with guys like Buxton (seems like he's always DTD) and Gray (left yesterday's game, IL earlier this year) on the team. Lewis just hit the IL after being recalled and a few other injuries as well

The Central is so bad that they can easily get by with all these injuries

 

[Discoverer]

Definitely not "tearing the cover off the ball" but when your starting 2B and SS have put up a combined ~50 wRC+ so far this year...

Ha, yeah, weird way to describe a guy with a 118 wRC+ and awful BB/K numbers in AAA.

 

[phillipmike]

I dont want to crap on a guy but a 26 year old AAA player (2nd year in AAA) with OPS of .844 and a OBP of .316 isnt really tearing the "cover off the ball"

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Ha, yeah, weird way to describe a guy with a 118 wRC+ and awful BB/K numbers in AAA.

For the worst offense in baseball (77 wRC+), those minor league numbers are considered elite

 

[The Nemesis]

I have a question about the MLB draft. I was watching a college game tonight. Are some of the players drafted still playing in college and highschool? Is the draft the same as other pro sports?

If the team signs a player they no longer play amateur ball. And if a player is drafted and not signed the team doesn't retain their rights moving forward the way it happens in the NHL. In fact the NHL is the only major sports draft where drafted players keep playing in amateur settings (NCAA/CHL) while the drafting team holds on to their rights. NBA, NFL, and MLB all require the player to be signed out of the draft at which point they forfeit their NCAA eligibility

He makes some questionable decisions sometimes from an outside perspective, but can't count the number of times I've seen people on here complaining about a decision, only for it to work out quite well in the game. And then it's crickets. But if that thing ends up hurting us... oh man, we'll hear it for days.

A bad decision that works out doesn't stop being a bad decision.

If I sold everything I owned and used those funds to buy lottery tickets that's a stupid decision because the odds of me winning the lottery are infinitesimally small. If I do end up winning it makes it a successful decision but not a good one because I succeeded on the back of beating long odds, not because it was actually a shrewd call that set me up in the best possible position moving forward.

 

[Dekes For Days]

A bad decision that works out doesn't stop being a bad decision.

While true, a decision isn't "bad" just because somebody with limited outsider information thinks it's bad. There's usually a lot more reasoning behind things that fans aren't aware of. Also, how impactful to the end outcome some of these "bad" decisions actually are is often exaggerated.

 

[theaub]

A bad decision that works out doesn't stop being a bad decision.

If I sold everything I owned and used those funds to buy lottery tickets that's a stupid decision because the odds of me winning the lottery are infinitesimally small. If I do end up winning it makes it a successful decision but not a good one because I succeeded on the back of beating long odds, not because it was actually a shrewd call that set me up in the best possible position moving forward.

This would be a fair comment if the majority of people in here also didn't shit on Montoyo when he makes a good decision and it doesn't work out well.

 

[Tony Romo]

Twins have one of the best offenses so far this season to go along with an above average rotation (and bottom tier bullpen), but I believe I remember the broadcast mentioning they've had one of the easiest schedules to date. For reference they're 16-6 against their division, 6-5 against the East, 7-6 against the West, and 0-2 in interleague games.

White Sox are underachieving and likely have the best potential there but now Anderson is out (but Robert likely returns). I still think the Guardians are an interesting group but there's been worrying trends from their starting rotation which makes them unlikely to contenders. Overall they're still the weakest division in my mind.

The white sox being bad make me sad. Was Convinced Lu Bob was going to win MVP this year.

 

[TGB]

Good ol' Angels. In the past when the offense has been slow to get going, usually a May series against the Rangers, Angels, or Orioles have gotten it going.

This would be a fair comment if the majority of people in here also didn't shit on Montoyo when he makes a good decision and it doesn't work out well.

Maybe the majority of people should stop childishly taunting and demeaning him at every opportunity? I agree he's not a good manager, but I don't endlessly complain about it.

 

[Discoverer]

This would be a fair comment if the majority of people in here also didn't shit on Montoyo when he makes a good decision and it doesn't work out well.

I think I posted this years ago about Gibbons, probably pre-July-2015 when so many people wanted him fired, but basically... for a lot of people, the manager will never get credit for anything.

Bad decision, bad result - "What an idiot!"
Bad decision, good result - "He got lucky. He's still an idiot."
Good decision, bad result - "What an idiot!"
Good decision, good result - "Any idiot could have made that move."

 

[Kurtz]

I think I posted this years ago about Gibbons, probably pre-July-2015 when so many people wanted him fired, but basically... for a lot of people, the manager will never get credit for anything.

Bad decision, bad result - "What an idiot!"
Bad decision, good result - "He got lucky. He's still an idiot."
Good decision, bad result - "What an idiot!"
Good decision, good result - "Any idiot could have made that move."

Yeah, I think the fact that we're easily leading the league in 1-run wins is generally a positive reflection on the manager in a macro sense.

 

[Discoverer]

Yeah, I think the fact that we're easily leading the league in 1-run wins is generally a positive reflection on the manager in a macro sense.

Good point. I'm not sure I really buy that so much, but I suspect if we go back to these threads from last year we would find lots of people wanting Montoyo fired in part because of their struggles in one-run games. It's odd that we haven't seen the opposite this year.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I just don't like him and his demeanor as an MLB manager. The one off in game decisions do tend to get over blown in the moment. He just generally bugs me and I have been wanting a different manager essentially since his first season. He basically comes off as a bench coach cosplaying as a manager to me.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Generally I think people do shit on Montoyo too much. The good decisions that turns out bad being a good example. Borucki coming back out for the 4th yesterday was the right call, 2 or 3 guys weren't available, Stripling if available wasn't going to go long because he pitched the day prior. With only 6 guys available you really needed an extra inning out of Borucki there if you could get it. But he gave up 2 runs and it was a disaster. To be fair I think some people said it was wrong before he shit the bed and I can stomach that criticism more. If a correct decision was made that works out badly and you shit on it after the fact because it didn't work then you're just being results biased and want someone to blame. If you call it a bad decision when the decision was made and shit on it after the fact then at least you're criticizing based on your opinion of the decision and not just the result. You're incorrect, but at least you're going about forming your opinion in the right way instead of being results orientated.

I try to make up my mind of Montoyo decisions when they happen, and only shit on decisions that don't work out that I thought were wrong at the time(there are still plenty of those). I tend to give passive aggressive remarks to bad decisions that do work out(just because it worked don't mean it wasn't bad). I also try to pick up for him for decisions that I think were correct that don't work out, the Borucki one being the example here.

I could still do better though. I gave Montoyo a ton of crap yesterday for his lineup, and not pinch hitting in a few spots when it turns out Jansen and Teo had hip issues. I've seen enough bad Montoyo lineup decisions that it's difficult to see something that appeared that stupid and hold off and assume it's because of some information that I'm not privy to, because often times it's just another horrible Montoyo lineup decision.

 

[theaub]

Even the Tapia stuff...I do not like Tapia at all but we only have 12 position players on the roster and he's definitely a better hitter than Zimmer, so its no surprise that he's going to play a bunch. If you want to be mad at someone be mad at the lockout for forcing us to carry 14 pitchers this far into the deason.

 

[canucksfan]

Part of the problem with Montoyo is he did a bunch of weird stuff in his two years, especially first-year and that causes people to look at him from a more negative lens. I am guilty of this.

 

[thehockeysong]

If someone criticizes a good move for having a bad result, that's on them. I don't think the criticism if actual bad moves is overblown, he's horrendous.

 

[canucksfan]

 

[dredeye]

Sometimes people on the outside with limited information believe a right decision that has valid reasoning is wrong.

In the end, even if a "wrong decision" is made (which will happen for every team and coach), the chance of it having a meaningful impact on the overall outcome is ridiculously small, so just enjoy the games.

Absolutely incorrect.

 

[justashadowof]

The team's record could easily be closer to 20-27. It's a strong starting staff, they seem to have many pitching options and the lineup has hugely under-achieved. They still have a legit opportunity to have a great season and most importantly peak late in the season. IMO this is the best collection of talent since the World Series teams.

 

[Discoverer]

Absolutely incorrect.

It's not, though. You can even take it to an extreme and look at the dumbest possible thing he could do. Down by one run, 9th inning, bases loaded, two out. Vladdy's scheduled to come up. Montoyo decides to pinch-hit Tapia instead. All else being equal, the chances of bringing that run in go from something like 40% to about 30%. That's a big difference, but it's also kind of not, especially considering it's so extreme that it's something no manager (including Montoyo) would ever do.

The things we complain about the most are tiny little things that feel bigger than they are but realistically have extremely minimal impact on the outcome of any play, let alone an entire game.

 

[Morgs]

 

[canucksfan]

Not that I don’t believe it, but who is this person?

 

[hockeywiz542]