Rumor: Blue Jackets looking at Ryan Kesler?
- Thread starter Tv9924
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Nanabijou
Booooooooooone
I think the standard pitfall in trade proposals on HF is to over-value prospects on the team you root for. I've probably fallen into that pit, because I personally really don't want to part with Jenner and Wennberg for Kesler. I just think they both are going to be contributing to the Jackets for many years to come.
Now if we could somehow frame the deal around Rychel and Dano, then I'd be much more enthusiastic.
I am not trading Wennberg or Jenner and definitely not for a guy like Kesler. I am definitely not trading them both. There are five guys in our organization I wouldn't trade. Johansen, Jenner, Murray, Wennberg, and Dansk. Their age, position they play, talent, and leadership qualities all make them way to valuable to this team for the next ten plus years. I think it would be really foolish to trade any of them and I just can't imagine how mad I would be if we did trade one of them, let alone two of them, and for a guy like Kesler.
Those first two names are almost non-starters, I would suspect, from a GM perspective. Especially together.
Start smaller. Too many roster pieces coming back our way. We have depth everywhere. Sure we could make other moves. Also, you are offering too many players with NTC's.
I wouldn't mind Bieska and, to a lesser extent Higgins; but I wouldn't give up too much for them. Certainly none of the two names in that list. I'm ok with a 1st+ for Bieka or a 2nd+ for Higgins. The plus for Bieska might be a guy like Savard or Nikitin. The problem with Higgins is that we'd need to move a roster forward somewhere and I'm not sure who Higgins even replaces in the lineup. I highly doubt our GM would entertain these deals, but there you go.
Looking at your roster. If you are going to trade Kesler, you are going to need a kings ransom, he's one of your better "chips". Sadly, he's only marginally "better" than one of our more famous whipping boys, RJ. I have no idea what RDrieson means by "a guy like Kesler". He's a damn good player.
You guys are a bit of a disaster right now. What the heck happened to Burrows?
cbjfaninmo
4 those about 2 rock
Agree with you. They are our core for the next few years. One could be moved in the right deal but not happening for Kesler. None of those guys will be moved in the near future.
What I mean is a guy who is about to be 30 and is already having trouble staying in the lineup. That is not a good sign for anyone. That is a bad sign for a guy who plays like Kesler.
Also, what I mean is for a guy who doesn't really improve us enough. While better than some players we have, Kesler is just like a number of guys we already have. If I am making a trade, I am doing it for a defensive defensman or a young forward like ROR.
If by "trouble" you mean playing 60 of 61 games this year, I guess you got me. Rough year last year, but he's been very durable outside of that.
I wouldn't say that ROR helps us anymore than Kesler; but he is younger. There is some love for ROR that seems a bit odd. His goal count is inflated by a much higher than normal shooting pct this season. Even with that, he's still on pace to barely reach 30 goals.
Last thing we need with this young team is a veteran with a lot of playoff experience (most of it good) that fits our style of play. Yeah, I think we need to continue to look to get younger. I mean it's not like we a fairly deep prospect pool with a lot of NHL depth or anything.
It's borderline disprespectful to say that we have guys "just like" Kesler. Not even close.
Also, no reason to act like he's going to fall of a cliff when he turns 30. Kind of a joke that anytime a player is close to 30 every acts like they're done and they can't contribute. Seeing this same type of think when talking about Vanek or other guys.
Hossa has been a key contributor to the Hawks as an over 30 year old - same with Joe Thorton and Patrick Marleau. The Jackets added Nathan Horton who will be in his 30's the majority of his contract. Patrick Sharp is 32. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kunitz, Scott Hartnell, Radim Vrbata, Shane Doan, the Sedins...and that's just speaking of offensive guys.
It's nice to have young studs on your team, but if that's all you have, you're the Edmonton Oilers, the laughing stock of the league. Or, you're the Jackets, a young team who is consistently inconsistent and can't get get out of their own way.
A still in-his prime veteran like Ryan Kesler is EXACTLY what this team needs, and honestly, the idea of acting like the team shouldn't trade for a guy because he's 28-30 years old is laughable. Most of the teams making deep playoff runs have the right mix of youth and quality veterans. Stockpiling picks and prospects and rolling out nothing but 25 year olds is not a recipe for playoff hockey.
Speaking of "old" guys - remember Vinny Prospal? Came to the Jackets as an old man in his late 30's and was our best player/leader. Yet now we're acting like we can't aquire a 29 year-old because he's close to 30?
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SuperGenius
For Duty & Humanity!
- Mar 18, 2008
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The age doesnt bother me a whole lot. If I thought we would get 100% Kesler 100% of the time, I would be more excited about the possibility, though. He's basically who we hope Jenner turns out to be.
Mayor Bee
Registered User
- Dec 29, 2008
- 18,087
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As a rule, players on the far side of 30 don't get better, and their inevitable decline is a simple matter of time. Players over 30 can be more productive than before as the circumstances around them become more advantageous, but they don't actually get better. So about the only thing we can look at is a player's track record.
The following are simple facts about Kesler:
- He'll be 30 when next season starts, and he's not getting better
- He had a significant injury last year
- He's topped 25 goals twice, once with a season of 26 and once with a season of 41
- His offensive contributions in Vancouver have been inflated, first by playing significant time with Mats Sundin and Pavol Demitra, then by getting a ton of power play time with the Sedin twins (and ES time with the same)
- It is not unreasonable to suggest that Kesler is another one of these 20-25 goal, 50-55 point forwards with an illusion of being better based on his circumstances. Who can forget the legendary Anson Carter potting 33 goals and 55 points in Vancouver, simply from playing with the Sedins?
- If Kesler were in Calgary and not Vancouver, he'd be looked at much the same as a guy like Craig Conroy. That's more speculative, but I still think it's reasonable.
Looking at the overall picture, it's not unreasonable to put Kesler in the same realm as all these other 20-25 goal, 50-55 point guys. He fits in there with others like Callahan (said to have a huge asking price) and Antoine Vermette (who we're all familiar with), among a good 30 more around the league.
The following are simple facts about Nathan Horton:
-He'll be 29 (almost 30!) when next season starts, and he's not getting better
-He had a significant injury last year
I assume you think we should start shopping Horton?
Your points are completely invalid. Aside from the insane Craig Conroy comparison, and the fact that Kesler doesn't play with the Sedins, you don't trade for a guy like Kesler as if he is a prospect and you're hoping he "becomes better."
You trade for him because of the player he is now and has proven to be. Same with signing a guy like Horton. They've established exactly who they are at this level and proven their worth.
Young players, prospect, picks, and potential are great. but if you want to be a legit consistent playoff team, and not the Oilers or Jackets, you need more than that.
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There are TWO HUGE differences between Horton and Kesler.
1 - We got Horton because we need a goal scorer. We don't need what Kesler brings. It would be more of a luxury to have him.
2 - We traded ZERO players/assets to get Horton. We would have to not only trade players/assets, but big/important ones.
1 - We got Horton because we need a goal scorer. We don't need what Kesler brings. It would be more of a luxury to have him.
2 - We traded ZERO players/assets to get Horton. We would have to not only trade players/assets, but big/important ones.
1. Look at Horton's career stats. He's not a prolific goal scorer or PPG guy, more of a 20 goal guy if anything. Pretty much any team could use a guy like Kesler and what he brings. I fail to see how he can do anything other than improve a team he goes to.
2. This is true, although salary and cap space I think is an asset. The question is, at what point are you (and maybe other fans) going to be OK with actually dealing assets? How many more years are you OK with missing playoffs or not winning a playoff round?
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
This is itself two questions. The first one is fair - assuming one wants to add something. The second is a strawman and you should know better.
Horton is a goal scorer? Who knew? I guess 1 more goal every 20 or so games over the course of a career makes you more of a goal scorer as opposed to someone else?
Kesler is just as much a 25-30 goal guy as Horton is.
As far as not needing what Kesler brings? That suggests to me that you either:
1. Don't know what Kesler brings or
2. You overestimate what some of our players bring.
For one thing, not one player on the Jackets is anywhere near 200 shots on goal. Neither Gaborik, Horton, or Johansen are remotely on pace to average 3 shots on goal per game.
I would ship AA and a 1st over for Kesler (to start) without even thinking twice and this team would be the better for it.
We'd have to see how a deal is laid out, to see how big/important those assets would be. One difference you didn't mention. We are married to Horton for the next six seasons, for good or ill.
No reason for people to get all fired up, Kesler doesn't want to go anywhere.
Yeah, the false dichotomy approach is in poor form. We can make the playoffs with this team, as built, and there is nothing to support that adding him, especially with no consideration on what moves the other direction, changes our playoff chances in a significantly positive direction.
I think he upgrades a center position and provides a bit more scoring. However if we don't drop the goals against, in which I'm not sure he's that much of an upgrade in that regards, it might be totally moot.
Nick Kypreos @RealKyper 17h
#RedWings #Penguins #Rangers interested in Kesler. No shortage of offers starting 2 come in for #Canucks. I'm leaning towards a trade by Wed
Bruce Garrioch @SunGarrioch 17h
@RealKyper Add the Blue Jackets to that list
Louis Jean @LouisJean_TVA Feb 26
It should be noted, Kesler's trade request goes back to the start of the season. #Canucks #NHL
Louis Jean @LouisJean_TVA Feb 26
Sources say Ryan Kesler requested a trade some time ago & wants out of Vcr. Told #Canucks don't want to trade him but may not have a choice.
Louis Jean @LouisJean_TVA 20h
That being said, I stand 100% behind what I reported because it is true.
Louis Jean @LouisJean_TVA 20h
#Canucks F Ryan Kesler categorically denies ever asking for a trade - which is what I reported yesterday.
Fro
Cheatin on CBJ w TBL
I normally don't agree with you much, but on this I do. Where on our roster do we have a Selke winner? Kesler is still thought of as an elite defensive forward. He fits perfectly into our "system." He's proven he can score too. I'm not sure where or when it happened, but somewhere 29 became "old." I think that's BS. He's still in his prime as far as I'm concerned. He's had some injuries, but with the exception of last season, his injuries haven't been excessively long term.
Also, while some think it's not a legitimate question, when does this franchise reach a point when they aren't timid about acquiring a player at the risk of trading "potential." Wennberg sure shows potential, but is he elite? Look, I'm not saying trade all of our futures for the present, but if we have the chance to acquire a difference maker (which Kesler is IMO) the club shouldn't have to think twice before making the deal. If our organizational depth has become as strong as many have said here, then couldn't it withstand the kind of deal it would take to acquire a player like Kesler?
I liked the Gaborik deal last season, it showed that our front office is finally not afraid to make the club better at the expense of untapped potential. Other than including Moore in that deal, I really didn't hear too much griping about Brassard and Dorsett. I guess when it comes to players like Brassard and Dorsett, as a fan it gets tiring being served hamburger and being told it's prime rib.
Patience may be a virtue, but being too patient is a detriment. I don't see any hesitation in Jarmo like I did in Niles.
I will try this one more time. I am not saying Kesler isn't good. I am saying we don't what he brings for what it will cost to get him. We are building a very good, young team. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I would trade Jenner, Johansen, or Wennberg for Kesler. NONE. That does not mean he isn't good. I just don't think his value is worth those 3. I would say the same for Horton if we were to be looking to trade for him right now.
In a year or 2. When Johansen is closer to his prime. Also, it isn't all about how elite I think Wennberg or Jenner will be as players. I mean, Rychel probably has more potential (though I don't see him reaching it). It is about all of the things they bring to the team on and off the ice. Also, IMO, we didn't trade anyone near as good as guys like Jenner and Wennberg for Gaborik. We traded a young defenseman (we had a lot of them) and a center who wasn't really playing that well (IMO) and didn't bring what guys like Jenner bring to the team.
I have no problem trading prospects. We have a ton of good ones we could trade. I am just not trading Jenner, Wennberg, or Dansk. Heatherington is right behind them. I have no problem trading Rychel, Dano, etc.... If that isn't enough to get someone, then fine, we will just keep improving as a team with our great core.
We traded Derek Dorsett, Derick Brassard, John Moore, and a sixth-round draft pick for Gaborik. What are comparables to that for our team now?
Tropp (I know he doesn't compare to Dorsett as a player. I just picked a 4th line guy)
Atkinson
Erixon
6th
We would obviously have to up that for a player like Kesler, but by how much? I certainly wouldn't up it so much that it includes guys like Jenner or Wennberg.
Tropp (I know he doesn't compare to Dorsett as a player. I just picked a 4th line guy)
Atkinson
Erixon
6th
We would obviously have to up that for a player like Kesler, but by how much? I certainly wouldn't up it so much that it includes guys like Jenner or Wennberg.
Well, Johansen would never happen; for anyone to suggest it would they would have to be a bit delusional. I'm with you in that I wouldn't trade Jenner or Wennberg either. Having said that; if for some odd reason they were to move him and we took him I doubt any of those assets would be included. I don't, necessarily, think any of those assets would be required to close the deal.
I wouldn't let any of those "reports" or suggestions from other teams cloud your view on a Kesler deal.
Jenner would probably be the only one considered, but I doubt they would pull the trigger. Especially if it contained additional assets beyond Jenner.
