Blackwood/Vanecek/We Really Need to Move On/Goalie Thread

[NJDevs26]

I think you can say that Blackwood has been okay lately and still be skeptical that it means anything long term.

Especially since one of his main problems is staying healthy, which being a backup might be able to somewhat mitigate

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

I think you can say that Blackwood has been okay lately and still be skeptical that it means anything long term.

IMO that is where the organization is. IMO there is a small chance he will be a Devil in 23-24 and zero chance he is a Devil in 24-25. Not sure what posters are so concerned about.

 

[Bleedred]

Good for him, though you think Bleedred might be a tad biased in his assessment of Blackwood? I don't think they were bad goals, but I also don't know how Bleed grades softies overall as I don't follow that thread.

I watched the entire game last night and Blackwood was good. Again, most teams would love a performance like that from their backup, but you decided to use it as a starting point for calling for him to be replaced Schmid, who's been struggling lately.

Biased? You honestly didn’t think the game winner was bad? That’s one of the softest goals he’s allowed this year. I know some are still trying to rationalize that it deflected off if Bratt’s stick when it clearly didn’t.

The only biased people are the ones that act like Blackwood isn’t one of the worst goaltenders in the national hockey league, which he has been for going on 3 seasons now. Or that his pro hockey career hasn’t now been more bad than good, with his mediocre AHL career. And then there’s the weird cherry picking I saw before last night’s game of how he’s played well on the road and using that to rationalize that he hasn’t been bad.

To some of you it’s almost like a controversial statement, despite being fact.

 

[Azathoth]

I feel like Blackwood is very enigmatic; he'll make a whole bunch of crazy difficult, athletic saves and then give up some weird easier looking goals like the 1st and 4th ones last night. He certainly helped them steal a point last night but also kind of gave away the 2nd point. TBF he was far from the issue with the overall team performance last night so who knows.

 

[Bleedred]

I feel like Blackwood is very enigmatic; he'll make a whole bunch of crazy difficult, athletic saves and then give up some weird easier looking goals like the 1st and 4th ones last night. He certainly helped them steal a point last night but also kind of gave away the 2nd point. TBF he was far from the issue with the overall team performance last night so who knows.

Like I keep saying, he played well enough to get us a point and he played just bad enough in the end to show us why he doesn't get more games than he does or as many games as he was getting. On top of Vitek being the far superior goalie.

And people can grasp at straws and data snoop all they want with the ''Well, he's above league average/really good on the road'' or ''He plays really well when facing 40 shots'' which is another weird cherry pick I've seen used to ratioanalize how overall poor he is. And you can say I'm biased and call my stats bullshit all you want, but there's concrete evidence that is NOTHING to do with me, which I don't even factor into that would indicate he's not a very good goalie at the NHL level and he's significantly the inferior goalie on this roster right now.

And no, I don't think Schmid would do any worse than him right now, even if he wouldn't do any better. It's a wash at worst.

But the real biases seem to be the sarcastic calling people out to see if they'll call a goal that's clearly no chance a stoppable goal on him and grasping at everything that he's not a bad goalie. As if we're supposed to concede and say ''Yeah, okay he's not bad, he can't possibly still be bad if he's had some good games. Bad goalies don't have good games or good stretches. It's not like Martin Jones actually has 3 shutouts this year''.

It was the same shit with the last few bad goalies we had here. And guess who was right on them? And I know I sound like a narcissistic, smug asshole on the ''Look who was right'' shit that I'm pulling, but I deserve the benefit of the doubt here, after all that.

 

[My3Sons]

Yeah Schmid has been struggling as of late but unlike Blackwood, there is still room for improvement and growth.

With Mac, what you see is basically what you will more than likely get going forward.

Look...we can go 'round and around with this but I'm not going to change your minds and neither are any of you going to change mine.

So let's just agree to disagree on Blackwood and call it, okay? Okay.

He seems to have righted the ship. It looks like he has won his last three AHL starts giving up 4 on 100 shots so he’s seengly back to playing well.

 

[HBK27]

Biased? You honestly didn’t think the game winner was bad? That’s one of the softest goals he’s allowed this year. I know some are still trying to rationalize that it deflected off if Bratt’s stick when it clearly didn’t.

The only biased people are the ones that act like Blackwood isn’t one of the worst goaltenders in the national hockey league, which he has been for going on 3 seasons now. Or that his pro hockey career hasn’t now been more bad than good, with his mediocre AHL career. And then there’s the weird cherry picking I saw before last night’s game of how he’s played well on the road and using that to rationalize that he hasn’t been bad.

To some of you it’s almost like a controversial statement, despite being fact.

Huh?

For starters, I already commented on the OT winner:

OT goal was probably weak - maybe the shot changed angles due to hitting Bratt's stick that threw Blackwood off, but it's tough to say. There was certainly contact with Bratt's stick (either the puck or Burakovsky's stick), but it looked like one Blackwood should've had.

Not sure why you're bringing that up though, considering the comment of mine that you are quoting is in direct response to the one below, which was discussing goals 1 & 2 only:

According to our resident Goal-softy expert, Bleed, goals 1 and 2 weren't great :

So, not sure why you're bringing up the OT goal.

As for the "weird cherry picking" of how Blackwood has played on the road to apparently "rationalize that he hasn't been that bad" as you put it, I'd assume you are referring to these posts:

The first of which is @Tundra, who noted that Blackwood's home numbers are "atrocious" - so not sure how that one rationalizes him not being that bad. Meanwhile, my post on the subject was while we were trying to understand why Blackwood was getting the start (which, if you recall I stated I was very surprised by) and noting that given the stark road vs. home splits, it makes more sense to give Blackwood last night's game on the road versus the upcoming Pittsburgh or Vegas games at home.

 

[Bleedred]

He seems to have righted the ship. It looks like he has won his last three AHL starts giving up 4 on 100 shots so he’s seengly back to playing well.

Yup

He had a miserable stretch right after being sent back to the AHL after his first call up here, but since being returned from his second stint up here, he's turned it around with a heater.

He's no worse than Blackwood IMO at the NHL. And I'm not saying he's definitely better, but I'm really confident he's no worse.

It all depends on how good he is in all and I'm not sure of that right now.

Yes, he did get some luck with post hits early on, but that seemed to even out in his last couple of starts here with quite a few goals against him.

 

[Bleedred]

Huh?

For starters, I already commented on the OT winner:



Not sure why you're bringing that up though, considering the comment of mine that you are quoting is in direct response to the one below, which was discussing goals 1 & 2 only:



So, not sure why you're bringing up the OT goal.

As for the "weird cherry picking" of how Blackwood has played on the road to apparently "rationalize that he hasn't been that bad" as you put it, I'd assume you are referring to these posts:

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The first of which is @Tundra, who noted that Blackwood's home numbers are "atrocious" - so not sure how that one rationalizes him not being that bad. Meanwhile, my post on the subject was while we were trying to understand why Blackwood was getting the start (which, if you recall I stated I was very surprised by) and noting that given the stark road vs. home splits, it makes more sense to give Blackwood last night's game on the road versus the upcoming Pittsburgh or Vegas games at home.

There's been a few posts (never said they were from you) that have said the OT goal was deflected or may have been deflected by Bratt. It certainly was not.

And yes, that is exactly the post I was referring to. That's grasping and cherry picking. Overall, he's been his usual mediocre (or worse) self of the last 3 NHL seasons, on top of his 2 of his 3 AHL seasons which were CRAP.

He's NOT a good goaltender and I don't understand why it's so controversial to express such a statement, which can be backed up by lots of different sets of data which have nothing to do with me or what you consider my biased views.

 

[HBK27]

And people can grasp at straws and data snoop all they want with the ''Well, he's above league average/really good on the road'' or ''He plays really well when facing 40 shots'' which is another weird cherry pick I've seen used to ratioanalize how overall poor he is. And you can say I'm biased and call my stats bullshit all you want, but there's concrete evidence that is NOTHING to do with me, which I don't even factor into that would indicate he's not a very good goalie at the NHL level and he's significantly the inferior goalie on this roster right now.

And no, I don't think Schmid would do any worse than him right now, even if he wouldn't do any better. It's a wash at worst.

But the real biases seem to be the sarcastic calling people out to see if they'll call a goal that's clearly no chance a stoppable goal on him and grasping at everything that he's not a bad goalie. As if we're supposed to concede and say ''Yeah, okay he's not bad, he can't possibly still be bad if he's had some good games. Bad goalies don't have good games or good stretches. It's not like Martin Jones actually has 3 shutouts this year''.

It was the same shit with the last few bad goalies we had here. And guess who was right on them? And I know I sound like a narcissistic, smug asshole on the ''Look who was right'' shit that I'm pulling, but I deserve the benefit of the doubt here, after all that.

I'll also address this since it is pretty much directed at me, though you may also be talking about others in general as well.

I already addressed the home/road split stat in my previous post. As for facing more than 40 shots stat - again, I was at that point trying to understand/justify why Blackwood was getting the start last night, when I think most of us assumed it would be Vanecek given the time off. I noticed that stat and mentioned it because with Seattle being one of the top offensive teams in the league, I assumed they were also generating a lot of shots on goal and given Blackwood's stats when facing a high volume of shots, maybe that played a role in why he got the nod last night. After I posted it, I looked up the shots per game and saw that Seattle was rather low in the league and recalled they just have a high shooting percentage (which I probably should've done before making the post), but alas it was already out there so I left it.

So, again - both these cherry picked stats that you are referring to where not any defense of Blackwood, but trying to understand why Ruff gave him the start last night. I think the upcoming schedule and not wanting Blackwood to sit for too long was probably the main reason though and those stats had little to do with it.

As for the bias thing, I mentioned that you might be a "tad biased" in reference to your view on the first two goals. I wasn't trying to make a big thing out of it and was saying it in a joking manner. I do think there is some bias there and I get it given his track record, just the same as I'm biased the other direction with Blackwood as evident of me giving him some possible benefit of the doubt on the OT goal. Not trying to insinuate anything beyond that.

I also didn't call your stats bullshit, so I hope that was not directed at me. I know you spend a lot of time reviewing goals, so there's clearly a good amount of expertise there - but as I mentioned, I don't know what your threshold is for a "softie" as I don't go into your goal review thread at all. Nor am I automatically just going to defer to your thoughts (as I thought was being suggested by @glenwo2) on what is or isn't a bad goal. I'm allowed to have my own point of view on that.

And as much as I defend Blackwood, I don't think I'm over-the-top on it or deny that he's been very poor the past few seasons. As much as I'm rooting for the guy, I think I'm also fairly realistic about his performance - but if that's not the case, then call me out on it directly.

There's been a few posts (never said they were from you) that have said the OT goal was deflected or may have been deflected by Bratt. It certainly was not.

And yes, that is exactly the post I was referring to. That's grasping and cherry picking. Overall, he's been his usual mediocre (or worse) self of the last 3 NHL seasons, on top of his 2 of his 3 AHL seasons which were CRAP.

He's NOT a good goaltender and I don't understand why it's so controversial to express such a statement, which can be backed up by lots of different sets of data which have nothing to do with me or what you consider my biased views.

It would be cherry picking if I were using those stats to reach some type of conclusion as to Blackwood not being that bad, whereas I was using them to try to understand why he got the start last night.

I don't think it's controversial at all to say that he's not a good goaltender.

 

[glenwo2]

He seems to have righted the ship. It looks like he has won his last three AHL starts giving up 4 on 100 shots so he’s seengly back to playing well.

Well there you go.

 

[Bleedred]

I'll also address this since it is pretty much directed at me, though you may also be talking about others in general as well.

I already addressed the home/road split stat in my previous post. As for facing more than 40 shots stat - again, I was at that point trying to understand/justify why Blackwood was getting the start last night, when I think most of us assumed it would be Vanecek given the time off. I noticed that stat and mentioned it because with Seattle being one of the top offensive teams in the league, I assumed they were also generating a lot of shots on goal and given Blackwood's stats when facing a high volume of shots, maybe that played a role in why he got the nod last night. After I posted it, I looked up the shots per game and saw that Seattle was rather low in the league and recalled they just have a high shooting percentage (which I probably should've done before making the post), but alas it was already out there so I left it.

So, again - both these cherry picked stats that you are referring to where not any defense of Blackwood, but trying to understand why Ruff gave him the start last night. I think the upcoming schedule and not wanting Blackwood to sit for too long was probably the main reason though and those stats had little to do with it.

As for the bias thing, I mentioned that you might be a "tad biased" in reference to your view on the first two goals. I wasn't trying to make a big thing out of it and was saying it in a joking manner. I do think there is some bias there and I get it given his track record, just the same as I'm biased the other direction with Blackwood as evident of me giving him some possible benefit of the doubt on the OT goal. Not trying to insinuate anything beyond that.

I also didn't call your stats bullshit, so I hope that was not directed at me. I know you spend a lot of time reviewing goals, so there's clearly a good amount of expertise there - but as I mentioned, I don't know what your threshold is for a "softie" as I don't go into your goal review thread at all. Nor am I automatically just going to defer to your thoughts (as I thought was being suggested by @glenwo2) on what is or isn't a bad goal. I'm allowed to have my own point of view on that.

And as much as I defend Blackwood, I don't think I'm over-the-top on it or deny that he's been very poor the past few seasons. As much as I'm rooting for the guy, I think I'm also fairly realistic about his performance - but if that's not the case, then call me out on it directly.



It would be cherry picking if I were using those stats to reach some type of conclusion as to Blackwood not being that bad, whereas I was using them to try to understand why he got the start last night.

I don't think it's controversial at all to say that he's not a good goaltender.

To be honest, most of this was not directed at you. Yes the third goal comments was the only thing specifically directed at you.

And yes, you never called my stats bullshit and I don’t think has anybody has come out and said that they were bullshit, but I’ve been treated like I don’t know what I’m talking about for years now on these goalies, despite being right every single time, at least in regards to the goalies on our team. So I’m a little salty, I’m very defensive when I’m doubted on this topic.

This is why I keep bringing up Schneider and Kinkaid.

Who proclaimed Kinkaid would be out of the league in two years around January of 2018? And who was right?

Who said Schneider’s second half of 2018-2019 was merely a mirage and not real? And that he was not a .920% goalie? And who was right? Ray Shero certainly wasn’t right. It was a market correction, as he really wasn’t as bad as his .850% start, nor as good as his .920% end.

And I remember everybody that was so certain Schneider was bouncing back and laughed at and mocked my “Market correction” comments. In fact, one of them even made a Mainboard thread a year before that talking how Schneider is shot and how his side to side movement looked almost like a disabled plane on a runway (I forgot the exact comment but I agreed and it summed it up perfectly) only a year later this poster was smoking the Schneider dust and thought it was real and I was the fool.

And for the record, I don’t recall you being one of those posters, but I took numbers and I remember who they were for the most part. Some of them have been MIA or not posting as much, but I don’t think most of them are huge Blackwood believers this year.

So yeah, that’s why I get a bit too defensive and take this too seriously. I’m admittedly really bitter and butthurt over the heat I took over the prior goalies, when almost everything I said wound up being true. And to this point Blackwood is turning out the same way I predicted about a year ago.

 

[Guttersniped]

Evolving Hockey has goalie charts. Get excited!

 

[glenwo2]

Goalie charts make me sleepy.

 

[My3Sons]

I’ve been treated like I don’t know what I’m talking about for years now

Wait, what? You had something to say about goalies? I hadn't noticed. Just goes to show you learn something new every day.

 

[NJDevs26]

A) This reminded me of Vanecek's save against the Bruins a few weeks back

B) Damn I keep forgetting Ryan really is THAT young

 

[glenwo2]

A) This reminded me of Vanecek's save against the Bruins a few weeks back

B) Damn I keep forgetting Ryan really is THAT young

A) I think he's gotten his act back together after struggling upon his return

B) We are blessed to have TG 2.0

 

[Bleedred]

A) This reminded me of Vanecek's save against the Bruins a few weeks back

B) Damn I keep forgetting Ryan really is THAT young

A) I think he's gotten his act back together after struggling upon his return

B) We are blessed to have TG 2.0

Sounds like he was a bright spot again in what I think was a shutout loss for Utica.

When Ryan first surfaced, I saw the 62 after his user name and figured he was 60 cause he must have been born in 62 lol. Then I saw his picture and I figured no way he was anywhere near that old. Definitely wasn’t even 30, if even 25 looking at his picture. He’s pretty young looking. I guess he’s only 23 or almost 24 as Schmid is 22, turning 23 in May.

 

[MadDevil]

Evolving Hockey has goalie charts. Get excited!

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[Guttersniped]

View attachment 638828

Yes

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

if the Devils had Vitek Vanecek last year instead of the slop they threw out there, they would have had 15-20 more points, So they would have been an ~80 point team and now a ~100 point team and there is your gradual improvement. Thats it. If they changed that one player, there is your "gradual" improvement. Would that have made you happier.....?

Why do you feel the need to do this all the time? Do you seriously enjoy it? Its really weird.

 

[JimEIV]

if the Devils had Vitek Vanecek last year instead of the slop they threw out there, they would have had 15-20 more points, So they would have been an ~80 point team and now a ~100 point team and there is your gradual improvement. Thats it. If they changed that one player, there is your "gradual" improvement. Would that have made you happier.....?

Why do you feel the need to do this all the time? Do you seriously enjoy it? Its really weird.

This is utter bullshit. This notion that is was just goaltending.

And of all days to make this comment after last night you should know better...last night was the absolute epitome of what we saw for the last 3 years...it was an ugly flashback and part of the reason I'm not in a very good mood today...

You could've had Hasek in goal last night and wouldn't have changed the results...and that is 100% true about the prior 3 years.

Watch Last night's game again then talk to me about goaltending and gradual improvement.

 

[jkrdevil]

if the Devils had Vitek Vanecek last year instead of the slop they threw out there, they would have had 15-20 more points, So they would have been an ~80 point team and now a ~100 point team and there is your gradual improvement. Thats it. If they changed that one player, there is your "gradual" improvement. Would that have made you happier.....?

Why do you feel the need to do this all the time? Do you seriously enjoy it? Its really weird.

Which would mean they are on schedule for the reset of the rebuild after the Hall trade, not ahead of it.

 

[Bleedred]

Can you imagine if we did sign Wood to a 4 year deal and he was okay for the rest of this year and this was happening next year in year 1 of his 3 or 4 year deal? On a potentially $3-$4 million dollar a year deal?

Fortunately this is only something that can now happen in nightmares.

He has watched alot of hockey and actually really knows his stuff. I don't agree with his take on 'we are ahead of schedule'. Tbh, I think that's Fitz with a smart bit of setting of expectations.

We are not at all a 'top 5 team in the league' quite YET, and last night proved it. The nonsense that goaltending alone was the culprit has got to stop.

Last night and Blackwood's previous start and the whole month of December are indications that we do not have that firm ability to defend our own zone.

You constantly say this and yet the other goalie here has won 8 games in a row and has stopped the puck at a MUCH higher rate. He's also won 74% of his decisions while the decrepit #29 has won 50% of his and has also continued to perform like........Blackwood has for the last 70 games now. And then the kid that got called up stopped shots at a way better. rate., while we get the same old same old Blackwood we've seen since February of 2021.

Maybe he's just way better than Blackwood and Blackwood isn't a good goalie? Is that possible?

For what it's worth I thought he wasn't as bad last night as the Seattle game. He canceled out his good play with two short side shots and a pathetic OT winner in the Seattle game.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Can you imagine if we did sign Wood to a 4 year deal and he was okay for the rest of this year and this was happening next year in year 1 of his 3 or 4 year deal? On a potentially $3-$4 million dollar a year deal?

Fortunately this is only something that can now happen in nightmares.


You constantly say this and yet the other goalie here has won 8 games in a row and has stopped the puck at a MUCH higher rate.

Maybe he's just way better than Blackwood and Blackwood isn't a good goalie? Is that possible?

I've said it time and again that VV is the better goalie, but not bc of your incessant raging and nonsensical VV 'would've stopped that' BS.

Almost as perplexing as Jim's inability to be happy is your ability to lock onto minor cogs like backup goaltenders and fourth line forwards and bottom pair DMen as the root of all that is evil with a team.

Last night was about three forwards flying the zone and leaving Graves to make a stupid pass, Sharangovich not competing at all, Severson classically unable to tie up sticks and just general bad hockey for 2.5 periods.

Since you're an unabashed goalie expert, you should know your 'softie' was the result of the classic pad high to blocker side shot looking for a rebound and perfectly executed.
Feel free to @ me back with how a goalie can trap and freeze that. The only play was to send it to the other corner.

At least have some sense if THAT is your best take.