Bettman visiting Winnipeg to meet with corporate sponsors, host a fireside chat with fans amid declining season ticket sales

[jetsmooseice]

I mean really, there is nothing to do here for 90% of the Jets season. The Bombers only overlap for at most 1 month. As someone in Winnipeg I do know that lol.

In a place like Miami or Phoenix there's a multitude of things to do, both sports and other events and nightlife. The NHL teams actually have to compete for market share, especially when hockey isn't nearly as known or popular in those areas.

In Winnipeg, everyone knows what hockey is and there's 0 competition for 90% of the NHL season. Nobody's going to U of M games (hockey or any other sport) besides some students and players' friends/families. Jr A hockey here isn't what it is in Alberta or BC. The Moose are aimed at families/kids. The WHL couldn't get an arena sorted out and failed miserably. And for non-sporting events, there's also very little in terms of what to do for recreation/entertainment.

Those other teams may not overlap directly with the Jets but they do take up money that doesn't get spent on the Jets. Someone who spends $2,000 on Bomber season tickets might not be buying a ticket package for the Jets as a result. Or people might use that "extra money" on a vacation, a cottage, a hot tub, a motorcycle, a country club membership, new clothes, etc.

The point is that there are a lot of other things that people can spend their money on besides the Jets. Which is why the team needs to market itself, convince people that they should buy Jets tickets instead of those other things. You can't just expect people to always throw their money at you like it's 2011.

 

[JKG33]

Those other teams may not overlap directly with the Jets but they do take up money that doesn't get spent on the Jets. Someone who spends $2,000 on Bomber season tickets might not be buying a ticket package for the Jets as a result. Or people might use that "extra money" on a vacation, a cottage, a hot tub, a motorcycle, a country club membership, new clothes, etc.

The point is that there are a lot of other things that people can spend their money on besides the Jets. Which is why the team needs to market itself, convince people that they should buy Jets tickets instead of those other things. You can't just expect people to always throw their money at you like it's 2011.

Ehh I dunno how much overlap there is between "going out" events like the Jets, vs vacations/hot tubs/motorcycles/cottages. For the most part the Jets are going to be coming in last in that group, no matter how much marketing TNSE does.

I do agree the Jets and Bombers are competing for the same yearly budget sure. But they're also not competing directly at the same time like the Jets would be with concerts, restaurants, nightlife.. of which there is very little.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Ehh I dunno how much overlap there is between "going out" events like the Jets, vs vacations/hot tubs/motorcycles/cottages. For the most part the Jets are going to be coming in last in that group, no matter how much marketing TNSE does.

I do agree the Jets and Bombers are competing for the same yearly budget sure. But they're also not competing directly at the same time like the Jets would be with concerts, restaurants, nightlife.. of which there is very little.

Unless if Winnipeg has changed drastically in the last 20 years there are plenty of restaurants and bars to go out to. There's maybe not as many big-name concerts as a big American city might get, but still I remember going to a whole bunch of big name concerts as well.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Unless if Winnipeg has changed drastically in the last 20 years there are plenty of restaurants and bars to go out to. There's maybe not as many big-name concerts as a big American city might get, but still I remember going to a whole bunch of big name concerts as well.

Exactly this. There are plenty of places to spend your money. It's naive to say 'well there's nothing else to do'.

 

[JKG33]

Unless if Winnipeg has changed drastically in the last 20 years there are plenty of restaurants and bars to go out to. There's maybe not as many big-name concerts as a big American city might get, but still I remember going to a whole bunch of big name concerts as well.

The concerts definitely seem lesser than what it was pre-covid but maybe I'm wrong.

However I'm convinced that the whole Winnipeg has a bunch of bars/restaurants thing is a meme. There's a lot of divey shitholes sure, but very little in the way of mid-higher end even compared to somewhere like Calgary.

I'll continue with the Calgary comparison.. there's so many good spots both in terms of restaurants and nightlife along 4th & 17th areas. Not many bad spots. Sure Winnipeg has Corydon and Osbourne areas, but it's slim pickings for what's actually there.

Exactly this. There are plenty of places to spend your money. It's naive to say 'well there's nothing else to do'.

There really isn't.

 

[jetsmooseice]

The concerts definitely seem lesser than what it was pre-covid but maybe I'm wrong.

However I'm convinced that the whole Winnipeg has a bunch of bars/restaurants thing is a meme. There's a lot of divey shitholes sure, but very little in the way of mid-higher end even compared to somewhere like Calgary.

I'll continue with the Calgary comparison.. there's so many good spots both in terms of restaurants and nightlife along 4th & 17th areas. Not many bad spots. Sure Winnipeg has Corydon and Osbourne areas, but it's slim pickings for what's actually there.


There really isn't.

I get that you have a Debbie Downer kind of outlook, but nobody is saying that Winnipeg dining is on par with LA or whatever. It doesn't have to be. The point is that there are a lot of restaurants out there, to name one example of something that soaks up a lot of money. For example: I went out for dinner at In Ferno's last weekend. Dinner, drinks, tax and tip ran us about $200. That could have been two upper bowl seats for the Jets game. The place was full. Multiply it by the number of restaurants out there and there are thousands of people going out for dinner instead of buying Jets tickets. With some smart marketing the Jets can snag some of the people doing that.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

TSN, SportsNet ect practically every one from Winnipeg. People have short memories anymore

 

[Yukon Joe]

The concerts definitely seem lesser than what it was pre-covid but maybe I'm wrong.

However I'm convinced that the whole Winnipeg has a bunch of bars/restaurants thing is a meme. There's a lot of divey shitholes sure, but very little in the way of mid-higher end even compared to somewhere like Calgary.

I'll continue with the Calgary comparison.. there's so many good spots both in terms of restaurants and nightlife along 4th & 17th areas. Not many bad spots. Sure Winnipeg has Corydon and Osbourne areas, but it's slim pickings for what's actually there.


There really isn't.

So Calgary does have a lot of corporate head offices, at least historically. That means Calgary has a much more developed downtown, and yes a number of very-high-end restaurants in that downtown. Winnipeg doesn't have that exact element.

But there are a number of restaurants at all sorts of different price points - they just aren't clustered the same way.

 

[KevFu]

It's nonsense. The NHL "needs" small markets about the same way the NFL needs markets like Birmingham, Alabama. The kids there are going to keep playing and turning into pros. The adults will either find pro teams to follow from a distance or "amateur" teams to follow nearby.

That doesn't mean a Green Bay can't work, but it's probably the exception rather than the rule and helped by the fact that it's existed forever.

I love that this is an example, because the NFL in Birmingham would do outstanding. There's a reason that every time there's a new tackle football league starting up that isn't the NFL, Birmingham gets a team. UFL, USFL, CFL, XFL, AFL, new USFL, another new USFL, now in new XFL/USFL merger.


Green Bay works fine because the structure of the NFL is such that the central revenue fund shared equally with all the teams is over 60% of the team's revenue.

We're talking about the Jets because the NHL's financial structure isn't ensuring their success. And THAT is the problem. They are willing to buy as a much NHL hockey as they can afford. It's in your best interest to have a structure where the Jets are fine, and that's kind of the floor/goal for every market with more people. You don't want to price your customers out and make them turn on your product.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I love that this is an example, because the NFL in Birmingham would do outstanding. There's a reason that every time there's a new tackle football league starting up that isn't the NFL, Birmingham gets a team. UFL, USFL, CFL, XFL, AFL, new USFL, another new USFL, now in new XFL/USFL merger.


Green Bay works fine because the structure of the NFL is such that the central revenue fund shared equally with all the teams is over 60% of the team's revenue.

We're talking about the Jets because the NHL's financial structure isn't ensuring their success. And THAT is the problem. They are willing to buy as a much NHL hockey as they can afford. It's in your best interest to have a structure where the Jets are fine, and that's kind of the floor/goal for every market with more people. You don't want to price your customers out and make them turn on your product.

NFL is kind of funny though because lets face it - you could put a team almost anywhere and it would be successful. The NFL is just that popular (and it helps games are only once per week). People will travel to see a team. Birmingham isn't all that big, but they'd draw fans from all over Alabama. That's how Green Bay works - the team is in Green Bay for historical reasons, but they're basically the Milwaukee Packers.

 

[KevFu]

NFL is kind of funny though because lets face it - you could put a team almost anywhere and it would be successful. The NFL is just that popular (and it helps games are only once per week). People will travel to see a team. Birmingham isn't all that big, but they'd draw fans from all over Alabama. That's how Green Bay works - the team is in Green Bay for historical reasons, but they're basically the Milwaukee Packers.

"It's just that popular" is half of it (with the fact that it's one game a week so you can have season-ticket holders who live out of market/state)... but the other half is that the bare minimum money NFL teams get from the central revenue is $349m.

The NHL is sharing by far the least amount of money. The Robin Hood system just doesn't work as well as the MLB/NBA/NFL model. In those models, you can't distinguish between the TV, merch, playoff money and "revenue sharing" because it's one huge lump sum with everyone getting the same amount.

In baseball, everyone's mad at Oakland for getting $135m from the central revenue fund, and only spending $50m on their team. No one is mad that Milwaukee exists. In the NHL's system, Milwaukee is probably too close to Chicago and too small to be financially successful.

It's a bad structure for the long-term health of the league, and a few of us have been pointing this out since 2006.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I love that this is an example, because the NFL in Birmingham would do outstanding. There's a reason that every time there's a new tackle football league starting up that isn't the NFL, Birmingham gets a team. UFL, USFL, CFL, XFL, AFL, new USFL, another new USFL, now in new XFL/USFL merger.


Green Bay works fine because the structure of the NFL is such that the central revenue fund shared equally with all the teams is over 60% of the team's revenue.

We're talking about the Jets because the NHL's financial structure isn't ensuring their success. And THAT is the problem. They are willing to buy as a much NHL hockey as they can afford. It's in your best interest to have a structure where the Jets are fine, and that's kind of the floor/goal for every market with more people. You don't want to price your customers out and make them turn on your product.

NFL is kind of funny though because lets face it - you could put a team almost anywhere and it would be successful. The NFL is just that popular (and it helps games are only once per week). People will travel to see a team. Birmingham isn't all that big, but they'd draw fans from all over Alabama. That's how Green Bay works - the team is in Green Bay for historical reasons, but they're basically the Milwaukee Packers.

Joe is spot on. You really can't compare the NFL to anything else.

NFL regular season games gets double the ratings of most World Series games. It's in a world all its own.

 

[KevFu]

I understand that, but their league is so healthy partly because of their financial structure.

Ignore the popularity relative to other sports and just focus on the financial power of teams relative to the other NFL teams:

The Buffalo Bills are in the second-smallest market. Los Angeles is the second-biggest market.

Bills keep $153 local revenue, from the pool of shared money (that they chip into), they get back $349m. Total of $502m.
The LA Rams keep $331m of their local revenue, get back $349m.
So Buffalo's NFL revenues are 74% of Los Angeles' revenues.

In the NHL, Buffalo collects RS and finishes with $159m in revenue.
And the Kings pay into revenue sharing, and finish with $279m in revenue.
The Sabres revenues are 57% of the Kings' revenues.

The league structure is the difference in the percentage. We all know the dollar numbers are higher in football. All the things you're talking about with the NFL being more popular, having a bigger TV contract, that's just why Bills $ is more than Sabres $ and Rams $ is more than Kings $. We get that. We're only talking about the ratio of Buffalo to LA within the same sport.

If the NHL simply adopted the NFL's revenue sharing model:
Sabres: $186, Kings: $252m (74%)
Bills: $502, Rams $680 (74%).

(If the NFL adopted the NHL's model, you'd be looking at: Rams: $752m, Bills $429m. And that would make the NFL less healthy).

 

[JKG33]

I get that you have a Debbie Downer kind of outlook, but nobody is saying that Winnipeg dining is on par with LA or whatever. It doesn't have to be. The point is that there are a lot of restaurants out there, to name one example of something that soaks up a lot of money. For example: I went out for dinner at In Ferno's last weekend. Dinner, drinks, tax and tip ran us about $200. That could have been two upper bowl seats for the Jets game. The place was full. Multiply it by the number of restaurants out there and there are thousands of people going out for dinner instead of buying Jets tickets. With some smart marketing the Jets can snag some of the people doing that.

No, but a lot of the talk about Winnipeg is "but at least there's restaurants" as if to say its even in the same stratosphere as better places, when in reality it's still far below places like Calgary which isn't a world class city itself.

You're probably right that you could get some of those people to move from a $100/person night at a restaurant to a game instead. But the problem is once you pay for your ticket, parking, food, a beverage or two, your cost becomes much higher than $100/person.

So Calgary does have a lot of corporate head offices, at least historically. That means Calgary has a much more developed downtown, and yes a number of very-high-end restaurants in that downtown. Winnipeg doesn't have that exact element.

But there are a number of restaurants at all sorts of different price points - they just aren't clustered the same way.

That's just it. All these restaurants and bars, which aren't all that great to begin with relative to what youre spending, are scattered all over various shithole ghetto neighborhoods.

For those into nightlife, you can't exactly go bar hopping either. I'm not asking for a Vegas or Nashville type strip either. But Winnipeg can't even support a few different nightclubs/bars within walking distance. So if you wanna go bar hopping it's gunna require an uber or at least a long enough cold walk that your night is half over.

 

[tucker3434]

I love that this is an example, because the NFL in Birmingham would do outstanding. There's a reason that every time there's a new tackle football league starting up that isn't the NFL, Birmingham gets a team. UFL, USFL, CFL, XFL, AFL, new USFL, another new USFL, now in new XFL/USFL merger.


Green Bay works fine because the structure of the NFL is such that the central revenue fund shared equally with all the teams is over 60% of the team's revenue.

We're talking about the Jets because the NHL's financial structure isn't ensuring their success. And THAT is the problem. They are willing to buy as a much NHL hockey as they can afford. It's in your best interest to have a structure where the Jets are fine, and that's kind of the floor/goal for every market with more people. You don't want to price your customers out and make them turn on your product.

It would do fine. It's an obvious landing spot for all the 2nd tier pro leagues since it is football crazy and there is no local Sunday competition. But it's not on anybody's lists for expansion. I would expect that Toronto would be a much higher priority for the NFL. And that's okay. Not having a team in Birmingham is obviously not sinking the league.

Green Bay does fine on their own. They were top 5 in attendance last year and they have an oddly large national following. On paper, there's absolutely no reason for them to be a middle 1/3 NFL team, and that's why they're the exception rather than the rule.

I don't think it's the responsibility of the league/teams to ensure that everyone can afford the game. It's not charity. It's entertainment. If your market can only support $20 tickets, then you can't support pro sports at their highest level. It's just the way it is.

 

[Yukon Joe]

No, but a lot of the talk about Winnipeg is "but at least there's restaurants" as if to say its even in the same stratosphere as better places, when in reality it's still far below places like Calgary which isn't a world class city itself.

You're probably right that you could get some of those people to move from a $100/person night at a restaurant to a game instead. But the problem is once you pay for your ticket, parking, food, a beverage or two, your cost becomes much higher than $100/person.


That's just it. All these restaurants and bars, which aren't all that great to begin with relative to what youre spending, are scattered all over various shithole ghetto neighborhoods.

For those into nightlife, you can't exactly go bar hopping either. I'm not asking for a Vegas or Nashville type strip either. But Winnipeg can't even support a few different nightclubs/bars within walking distance. So if you wanna go bar hopping it's gunna require an uber or at least a long enough cold walk that your night is half over.

So your complaint is changed from "there's nowhere to go" to "you might have to take an Uber".

And the fact you're talking about Winnipeg having "shithole ghetto neighbourhoods" kind of betrays where you're coming from. I mean no - the nice restaurants aren't on North Main or Point Douglas. Instead they're in a variety of nice suburban neighbourhoods.

 

[AZDesertKnight]

Fans aren't happy with Chapman's comments on needing more support.

Upset fans weigh in on Jets attendance woes, threat to leave

When Winnipeg Jets co-owner Mark Chipman said the team isn't sustainable with the fan support it's getting, he obviously touched a nerve.

www.google.com

Stop... I can only get so aroused

I honestly can say, I didn't expect this but it is truly hilarious to read these comments.

Winnipeg should not have gotten a team again.. plain and simple.

 

[KevFu]

I don't think it's the responsibility of the league/teams to ensure that everyone can afford the game. It's not charity. It's entertainment. If your market can only support $20 tickets, then you can't support pro sports at their highest level. It's just the way it is.

It's in their best interest to make their sport as popular as possible, and relocating teams loses customers. Pure and simple.

NFL shares 66% of revenue. NHL shares 6% of league revenue. If there was more revenue sharing, the places where hockey is very popular (Canada) has an easier time getting and keeping teams (that's good). But the big markets with lower hockey interest, also have more money to spend on marketing/promotion to try and make people more hockey fans (also good).

And since the big market teams with high interest are already capped in what they can spend on players, you're not hurting the fans of the big market teams in any way.

 

[KevFu]

BTW, so many people want the Coyotes to relocate so we can end this saga, but if they moved to Houston and were suddenly rich, that makes it even worse for Winnipeg to keep up.

The NHL's financial model (while being SO CLOSE to amazing, but just falls a little short) has two massive flaws that make it virtually automatic that teams are GOING TO STRUGGLE at the bottom of the revenue board.

As I've said since about 2006, actually makes it better for more teams if you were to contract Toronto instead of Phoenix, which makes no sense. More profitable teams should make everyone more money, not make things harder for the bottom.

 

[JKG33]

So your complaint is changed from "there's nowhere to go" to "you might have to take an Uber".

And the fact you're talking about Winnipeg having "shithole ghetto neighbourhoods" kind of betrays where you're coming from. I mean no - the nice restaurants aren't on North Main or Point Douglas. Instead they're in a variety of nice suburban neighbourhoods.

No my complaint hasn't changed, just expanded. The few decent spots there are, are quite spread out.

Ehh I wouldn't call a lot of those places nice suburban neighborhoods. A lotta those restaurants are in the downtown vicinity. I'd love it if there were more restaurants in the "nice suburban areas"

 

[Yukon Joe]

BTW, so many people want the Coyotes to relocate so we can end this saga, but if they moved to Houston and were suddenly rich, that makes it even worse for Winnipeg to keep up.

The NHL's financial model (while being SO CLOSE to amazing, but just falls a little short) has two massive flaws that make it virtually automatic that teams are GOING TO STRUGGLE at the bottom of the revenue board.

As I've said since about 2006, actually makes it better for more teams if you were to contract Toronto instead of Phoenix, which makes no sense. More profitable teams should make everyone more money, not make things harder for the bottom.

So I do understand what you're saying about contracting Toronto, not Arizona.

But when it comes to Winnipeg, first of all there's no evidence necessarily that they are struggling financially. I think Chipman is being very pro-active about the decline in ticket sales and wants to build up their season ticket base, but we don't necessarily know that they're actually losing money.

And even if they were losing money - they always have the option of shedding salary. When the team came back Chipman (or was it Cheveldayoff) said they would be a mid-cap team - somewhere between the ceiling and the floor. But right now they think they have a window, are going for it, and spending to the ceiling. That won't always be the case.

 

[Stumbledore]

It's a small city Winnipeg with an NHL team, what marketing needs to be done? There's literally f*** all else to do here. Even people who aren't hockey fans know the Jets are the only game in town

You've obviously not heard of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet and its international reputation or the Royal Manitoba Theatre Centre which is highly regarded across North America. Well, in the LA Times and the New York Times at least.

Judging from your post, however, you're probably not a fan of our symphony or many live theatres or the varied musical scene in Winnipeg.

 

[JKG33]

You've obviously not heard of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet and its international reputation or the Royal Manitoba Theatre Centre which is highly regarded across North America. Well, in the LA Times and the New York Times at least.

Judging from your post, however, you're probably not a fan of our symphony or many live theatres or the varied musical scene in Winnipeg.

Oh ice heard of all that. But you're correct in saying that I'm not a fan. I'll go out on a limb and say there's probably not a lot of overlap fans of the Jets and fans of the symphony/theater. Not exactly markets that are going to be competing for the same audience.

 

[Stumbledore]

Oh ice heard of all that. But you're correct in saying that I'm not a fan. I'll go out on a limb and say there's probably not a lot of overlap fans of the Jets and fans of the symphony/theater. Not exactly markets that are going to be competing for the same audience.

Okay, I understand. When you repeatedly keep saying there's nothing to do in Winnipeg, you're actually saying that there's nothing that appeals to very narrow span of interests.

 

[JKG33]

Okay, I understand. When you repeatedly keep saying there's nothing to do in Winnipeg, you're actually saying that there's nothing that appeals to very narrow span of interests.

I stand by what I said. There's nothing to do here. It's not that my interests are narrow, it's that the scope of what's here is incredibly narrow.

I legitimately don't have a single person in my social circle who actually goes to the Ballet or Theater, which includes my buddy's wife who was a theater major in uni. Hell I can't say I've ever had any social interaction with people who've brought up the idea. Not colleagues, friends of my parents, not girls I've dated, no one.