Bettman meeting with Ryan Smith, owner of Utah Jazz and Real Salt Lake (upd: Smith asks NHL to open expansion process)

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Where are these owners that are beating down the door and being denied?

I get you want to feel persecuted by the USA, but nobody in QC or Hamilton has the cash, desire, or permission from MTL or TOR to have a team there.

The BoG doesn't hate QC, they aren't operating on emotion and Nationalism or Xenophobia. QC just doesn't bring anything meaningful to the table. Based on being even smaller and poorer than Winnipeg, why go there?

Go to Quebec city to fire the greatest rivalry in Sports History again...Go because hockey is a passionate Sport and no place on Earth supports hockey like Canadians...Go to Quebec to revive Junior hockey and the city! Go because its a Winter wonderland with a beautiful facility and adds some more Culture to the NHL,while giving more players an opportunity to play Professionally! Go because I envision a 40 team NHL with 16 teams in each of the 2 Conferences making the play-off showdown!!!Go because the NHL is International with a lot of great players from around the globe! Go because Canada will always support their teams through Hell and High Waters!!!

 

[No Fun Shogun]

The thing is that the NHL can never be too presumptive when it comes to American market availability. They made the right call to bend their ownership rules to allow a consortium of locals to buy the Oilers and keep them in Edmonton back when Houston made a play for them. But they did so almost assuredly assuming that Houston would in turn bid on an expansion team in the near future.

Instead, ownership interest died then and there and the NHL is still not in the 4th largest American city decades later.

The NHL has a willing American bidder with billions of dollars, an arena to his name, a new arena plan in the works, and experience at running a major pro team. I don't see the NHL letting all of that wither on the vine.

Oh, and how much do you want to bet that the NHL (and NHLPA) would absolutely want Olympic hockey in an NHL venue with NHL players when SLC assuredly wins a future Winter Games bid?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Go to Quebec city to fire the greatest rivalry in Sports History again...Go because hockey is a passionate Sport and no place on Earth supports hockey like Canadians...Go to Quebec to revive Junior hockey and the city! Go because its a Winter wonderland with a beautiful facility and adds some more Culture to the NHL,while giving more players an opportunity to play Professionally! Go because I envision a 40 team NHL with 16 teams in each of the 2 Conferences making the play-off showdown!!!Go because the NHL is International with a lot of great players from around the globe! Go because Canada will always support their teams through Hell and High Waters!!!

OK, so I agree with pretty much everything you said.

But who is going to write a billion dollar cheque to make it happen?

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

I think this is correct. I am sure the league would prefer to go to Houston rather than SLC, but Fertitta who owns the Rockets (NBA) doesn't want to pay enough to be part of the NHL club as well, and the particulars of the Harris County (that's Houston) lease with Fertitta for the Rockets' arena mean that there is no public money available to help anyone else build an arena in Harris County. All of which makes Houston very difficult.

Therefore, some other place in the West has to come to forefront of the picture for the NHL, and fortunately for them, Ryan Smith has raised his hand. I don't think it's fair to say that NHL in SLC would be 'competing' with the Jazz, because I am absolutely sure that Smith is going to package the 2 teams together in some sense. And, that makes a big difference.

Likewise, I think for a few years, QC was a handy-to-have-in-your-pocket idea in the east. I am not sure that works any more with rising franchise values, however. And, lo and behold, Atlanta has re-awakened there.

Remember Atlanta has been 2 time loser to the dance so what is going to make them succeed this time...The NHL needed Vegas and to a lesser extent Seattle to do well right out of the gate and they have, only because of the format for drafting players in the Expansion has shifted from lets give them f*** all which was the case during the '70's, and Expansion of 1991,'92,93,1998 to 2000...Atlanta was not a great move in 1972,nor in 1998 and I'm not sure they would a great fit once again unless the NHL bends over so far as to make the Atlanta "Colonels" a hit ala Vegas

OK, so I agree with pretty much everything you said.

But who is going to write a billion dollar cheque to make it happen?

Quebecor that's who and were going to years ago (2017)when they got the proverbial slap in the face by Numbnuts

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Remember Atlanta has been 2 time loser to the dance so what is going to make them succeed this time...The NHL needed Vegas and to a lesser extent Seattle to do well right out of the gate and they have, only because of the format for drafting players in the Expansion has shifted from lets give them f*** all which was the case during the '70's, and Expansion of 1991,'92,93,1998 to 2000...Atlanta was not a great move in 1972,nor in 1998 and I'm not sure they would a great fit once again unless the NHL bends over so far as to make the Atlanta "Colonels" a hit ala Vegas


Quebecor that's who and were going to years ago (2017)when they got the proverbial slap in the face by Numbnuts

Ah...one of my favorite posts. When someone says that Atlanta has lost two teams and then thinks QC should get a team. Hypocrisy at its finest.

And (I should have this copy/paste by now), if you're going to count a team that moved from Atlanta almost 45 years ago, then all the teams that has moved from QC are fair game as well.

 

[dj4aces]

Go to Quebec city to fire the greatest rivalry in Sports History again...Go because hockey is a passionate Sport and no place on Earth supports hockey like Canadians...Go to Quebec to revive Junior hockey and the city! Go because its a Winter wonderland with a beautiful facility and adds some more Culture to the NHL,while giving more players an opportunity to play Professionally! Go because I envision a 40 team NHL with 16 teams in each of the 2 Conferences making the play-off showdown!!!Go because the NHL is International with a lot of great players from around the globe! Go because Canada will always support their teams through Hell and High Waters!!!

The issue isn't whether QC is a passionate, or even a viable NHL market today. The issue is monetary. Specifically, who will be able to spend at least US$1bn on an expansion fee? What is their source of income? How sustainable is said income? Who would be investors to help defer costs associated with said expansion?

Quebecor *could*, but their current business doesn't appear to have anything lined up for the future. Newspapers are a dying format, and so is cable television, so they'd need to diversify those interests yesterday, or have a different entity come in to save them when they finally fall. So... who else?

Atlanta was not a great move in 1972,nor in 1998 and I'm not sure they would a great fit once again unless the NHL bends over so far as to make the Atlanta "Colonels" a hit ala Vegas

It's sad that so many people don't know history.

After the round of expansion in 1967, the WHA popped up as a fledgling competitor to the NHL. I'm sure you know this much, at least. Anyway, the league saw where the WHA was looking to put teams, which included a team on Long Island in New York, and a team here in Atlanta. In an effort to prevent this, the NHL came in and awarded franchises to these two locations. The only reason the Flames moved is for the same reason Quebecor shouldn't own a franchise: He didn't diversify his business. I know I covered this a few pages back.

In the 90s, the league had been paying attention to how some larger minor league cities were doing for the purposes of expansion. Atlanta was a member of this club at the time. The Atlanta Knights were extremely successful, including a Turner Cup win in the 1993-1994 season. The team would be moved to QC due to their home arena being replaced by Philips Arena, as well as the incoming expansion team. Ted Turner became owner of the Thrashers, but man, he was just an awful and clueless owner.

Moving forward, what does the future hold? Who knows for sure? If the BoG decides Atlanta is worth revisiting, if they've decided the location in the northern suburbs is much better for a potential franchise, and if the potential owner or owners the league has been talking to here meet the league's requirements (whatever those might be, but money is most assuredly one of them), they will.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

The issue isn't whether QC is a passionate, or even a viable NHL market today. The issue is monetary. Specifically, who will be able to spend at least US$1bn on an expansion fee? What is their source of income? How sustainable is said income? Who would be investors to help defer costs associated with said expansion?

Quebecor *could*, but their current business doesn't appear to have anything lined up for the future. Newspapers are a dying format, and so is cable television, so they'd need to diversify those interests yesterday, or have a different entity come in to save them when they finally fall. So... who else?


It's sad that so many people don't know history.

After the round of expansion in 1967, the WHA popped up as a fledgling competitor to the NHL. I'm sure you know this much, at least. Anyway, the league saw where the WHA was looking to put teams, which included a team on Long Island in New York, and a team here in Atlanta. In an effort to prevent this, the NHL came in and awarded franchises to these two locations. The only reason the Flames moved is for the same reason Quebecor shouldn't own a franchise: He didn't diversify his business. I know I covered this a few pages back.

In the 90s, the league had been paying attention to how some larger minor league cities were doing for the purposes of expansion. Atlanta was a member of this club at the time. The Atlanta Knights were extremely successful, including a Turner Cup win in the 1993-1994 season. The team would be moved to QC due to their home arena being replaced by Philips Arena, as well as the incoming expansion team. Ted Turner became owner of the Thrashers, but man, he was just an awful and clueless owner.

Moving forward, what does the future hold? Who knows for sure? If the BoG decides Atlanta is worth revisiting, if they've decided the location in the northern suburbs is much better for a potential franchise, and if the potential owner or owners the league has been talking to here meet the league's requirements (whatever those might be, but money is most assuredly one of them), they will.

The WHA didn't come into existence until 1972 same year as the Flames and Islanders were granted NHL Expansion teams...Montreal gave Atlanta some decent players with a wink wink deal for down the road. When the Tom Lysiak stated he wouldn't sign with a Canadian team or more to the point the Montreal Canadiens before the 1973 draft Les Canadiens traded that pick to Atlanta for their first rounder in 1974...one thing the Atlanta Flames had was good/great goaltending with ex-Canadiens Phil Myre and Boston Bruins farm hand Daniel Bouchard...besides Tom Lysiak who turned out to be Flames best forward and player the Flames had JRichard( a 52 goal scorer with Quebec Nordiques) and Eric Vail who became Rookie of the year in 1975 and then Willi Plett(Rookie of the year in '77) a decent player with some "punch"! Guy Choinard the Flames 2nd rounder in a "deep"1974 draft turned out to be a Star too(50 goals in 1978-79) after toiling in the Minors for 2 years and playing his way upto top 4-6 role! Later(1979-80) they got Kenta Nilsson a Star too but by then the writing was on the Wall the Flames weren't going to cut it in the deep South were ice was more something you put in a Drink and not a Sport

 

[dj4aces]

The WHA didn't come into existence until 1972 same year as the Flames and Islanders were granted NHL Expansion teams...Montreal gave Atlanta some decent players with a wink wink deal for down the road. When the Tom Lysiak stated he wouldn't sign with a Canadian team or more to the point the Montreal Canadiens before the 1973 draft Les Canadiens traded that pick to Atlanta for their first rounder in 1974...one thing the Atlanta Flames had was good/great goaltending with ex-Canadiens Phil Myre and Boston Bruins farm hand Daniel Bouchard...besides Tom Lysiak who turned out to be Flames best forward and player the Flames had JRichard( a 52 goal scorer with Quebec Nordiques) and Eric Vail who became Rookie of the year in 1975 and then Willi Plett(Rookie of the year in '77) a decent player with some "punch"! Guy Choinard the Flames 2nd rounder in a "deep"1974 draft turned out to be a Star too(50 goals in 1978-79) after toiling in the Minors for 2 years and playing his way upto top 4-6 role! Later(1979-80) they got Kenta Nilsson a Star too but by then the writing was on the Wall the Flames weren't going to cut it in the deep South were ice was more something you put in a Drink and not a Sport

I mean, this is great and all, but that's a lot of words to use to say you know nothing of what caused the Flames to move, despite that history being easily available to anyone who wants to know facts.

To each their own, I suppose.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

I mean, this is great and all, but that's a lot of words to use to say you know nothing of what caused the Flames to move, despite that history being easily available to anyone who wants to know facts.

To each their own, I suppose.

The Flames were a Failure in the deep South plain and simple...Americans at that time were good with Minor League hockey but Major league they stayed away in droves!!!And that Franchise bled loses so NSkalbania bought them and moved them to a Hockey Market in Canada

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Go to Quebec city to fire the greatest rivalry in Sports History again...Go because hockey is a passionate Sport and no place on Earth supports hockey like Canadians...Go to Quebec to revive Junior hockey and the city! Go because it’s a Winter wonderland with a beautiful facility and adds some more Culture to the NHL,while giving more players an opportunity to play Professionally! Go because I envision a 40 team NHL with 16 teams in each of the 2 Conferences making the play-off showdown!!!Go because the NHL is International with a lot of great players from around the globe! Go because Canada will always support their teams through Hell and High Waters!!!

Ha… but they lost as many teams as Atlanta. Cross em off.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Ha… but they lost as many teams as Atlanta. Cross em off.

Wrong Quebec city lost their NHL team once,Atlanta is a 2 time loser but that's what you get when you have a couple of morons running the show and trying to make the deep South Like/Love hockey

 

[Reaser]

Wrong Quebec city lost their NHL team once,Atlanta is a 2 time loser but that's what you get when you have a couple of morons running the show and trying to make the deep South Like/Love hockey

Bulldogs & Nordiques.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Bulldogs & Nordiques.

Bulldogs get serious that was what a million years ago

 

[BMN]

Bulldogs get serious that was what a million years ago

I think you're missing their overarching point (on purpose or not, who knows) which is that "lost a team _x_ # of times" as a rhetorical device is pretty empty without a vast amount of context. As many users have pointed out on this forum, it took three franchises for MLB to stick in DC, three franchises for the NBA to stick in Chicago.....no one would question those markets now.

But then again, you seem to think Gary Bettman, and not the owners, cast the "yay" or "nay" on where the franchises go so correcting that point is probably more important for any useful conversation.

Still waiting for other past-or-current interested parties to be pressed for comment.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Bulldogs get serious that was what a million years ago

Sure, but the Flames also moved before I was born, so who cares what did or didn’t happen in a market over 40 years ago? The Quebec Bulldogs and the Atlanta Flames are both ancient history in sports terms, the vast majority of posters on this site have no living memory of either of them.

Apologies for anyone born 1975ish and earlier that just got walloped by collateral damage there.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Bulldogs get serious that was what a million years ago

Atlanta's population has grown 3X since the Flames left in 1980 and is now 5 or 6 times larger than QC. If you're including the Flames, then all teams should be counted.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Apologies for anyone born 1975ish and earlier that just got walloped by collateral damage there.

Made the cut by 2 years! Phew!

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

I think you're missing their overarching point (on purpose or not, who knows) which is that "lost a team _x_ # of times" as a rhetorical device is pretty empty without a vast amount of context. As many users have pointed out on this forum, it took three franchises for MLB to stick in DC, three franchises for the NBA to stick in Chicago.....no one would question those markets now.

But then again, you seem to think Gary Bettman, and not the owners, cast the "yay" or "nay" on where the franchises go so correcting that point is probably more important for any useful conversation.

Still waiting on someone to press other past-or-current interested parties to be pressed for comment.

blah blah blah

 

[JKG33]

I'm just spitballing here, but, has anyone thought of this idea? If Meruelo and Co. don't come up with a viable arena plan by the end of the season, Bettman gives him this option:

Meruelo sells the team to Smith for a decent profit, on the agreed condition that Arizona gets the next expansion team in the next couple of years. Gives the Meruelo team the time it needs to get land to build an arena on, without the time-sensitive stress of getting it done in the next matter of months. 'Yotes then move to SLC for '24-'25. AM gets his arena/shopping district finalized for a new team.

Not that I want the Coyotes to move. I hope they can get a chance to stay in the Valley somewhere. But, would this be something that works for both fanbases and cities?

This is exactly what I was thinking too. If SLC is ready with an existing arena this makes too much sense. Gets the players playing in an NHL arena and byes Arizona some time. The Coyotes can comeback in a few years with a brand new team in a brand new arena and I think they'd do well if they do it right the first time.


The NHL can even do what the NFL did with Cleveland, consider the franchise dormant for a couple seasons letting them retain their history and all that stuff.

 

[BMN]

blah blah blah

Well, I can't argue with that. Some orators can't be bested.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Wrong Quebec city lost their NHL team once,Atlanta is a 2 time loser but that's what you get when you have a couple of morons running the show and trying to make the deep South Like/Love hockey

Tampa, Carolina, Dallas, and Florida are all top-10 in attendance while Nashville is 100% filled. So....you're wrong yet again.

 

[Rob]

Was a Nordiques fan when I was in elementary school. Their farm team was in my city (Fredericton). When I see those old school Nordiques jerseys I have a rush of nostalgia. As much as I would love to seem them back in Quebec City I have to question if it would be financially successful.
They would definitely have great fans support. The rivalry with the Habs would be immense.
The low Canadian dollar remains the biggest concern. If the dollar was par I think it would work. So I just cannot forsee this happening.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Was a Nordiques fan when I was in elementary school. Their farm team was in my city (Fredericton). When I see those old school Nordiques jerseys I have a rush of nostalgia. As much as I would love to seem them back in Quebec City I have to question if it would be financially successful.
They would definitely have great fans support. The rivalry with the Habs would be immense.
The low Canadian dollar remains the biggest concern. If the dollar was par I think it would work. So I just cannot forsee this happening.

Yeah, tough to separate nostalgia from reality sometimes. I (obviously) grew up going to a ton of Whaler games and I still have a bunch of Whaler gear. Would I love to see a return to Hartford? Of course. Reality though...I don't think a team in Hartford would last a decade before attendance and revenue issues.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

blah blah blah

More teams have failed in Canada than southern/sunbelt markets.

 

[BMN]

Yeah, tough to separate nostalgia from reality sometimes. I (obviously) grew up going to a ton of Whaler games and I still have a bunch of Whaler gear. Would I love to see a return to Hartford? Of course. Reality though...I don't think a team in Hartford would last a decade before attendance and revenue issues.

Being that you actually are from CT (or lived there at least), you can tell me if I'm way off on this...

I always kind of looked at Hartford and Hamilton as similar in so much as the nostalgia doesn't match the ideal location. Bridgeport or Waterloo would be a little further away from Boston or GTA/Buffalo to balance audience capabilty and territorial grumblings. But it's not what the population is clamouring for.