Bettman meeting with Ryan Smith, owner of Utah Jazz and Real Salt Lake (upd: Smith asks NHL to open expansion process)

[Yukon Joe]

If Meruelos is willing to take the loss and if NHL is ok with that then there is no time limit.

Wonder if Ryan Smith knows something about Coyotes we don't? Can't imagine he would ask to expand if he knows he can buy the Yotes and move them.

I mean it's certainly possible.

When it comes to relocations the league and the team will always continue to maintain that there's nothing to see, don't look behind the curtain' right up until the moment the relocation is announced. Heck if I remember correctly the Thrashers were continuing to try and sell season tickets while the relocation to Winnipeg was being announced.

So linking Arizona to Utah is 100% speculation. There's no media that's reporting it. I've absolutely been burned in the past thinking "this is it!" only for the Coyotes to continue limping along.

But it's kind of hard NOT to link these stories, isn't it? It's now almost February, the NHL season is half over, and we've heard pretty much nothing from Meruelo's camp about a new arena location. The league has obviously been satisfied with Mullett arena as a short-term solution, but that obviously can't continue forever. And now we have an ownership group in SLC talking about being ready for next year?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

"We"

As in you speak for the entire hockey world? Or just the local audience here??

The Coyotes are not obligated to inform the union about it's negotiations unless it involved a player's current contract, or treatment of that player.

They're not obligated to, they're stupid not to.

 

[Salsero1]

I mean it's certainly possible.

When it comes to relocations the league and the team will always continue to maintain that there's nothing to see, don't look behind the curtain' right up until the moment the relocation is announced. Heck if I remember correctly the Thrashers were continuing to try and sell season tickets while the relocation to Winnipeg was being announced.

So linking Arizona to Utah is 100% speculation. There's no media that's reporting it. I've absolutely been burned in the past thinking "this is it!" only for the Coyotes to continue limping along.

But it's kind of hard NOT to link these stories, isn't it? It's now almost February, the NHL season is half over, and we've heard pretty much nothing from Meruelo's camp about a new arena location. The league has obviously been satisfied with Mullett arena as a short-term solution, but that obviously can't continue forever. And now we have an ownership group in SLC talking about being ready for next year?

Confirmation bias is hard to notice

 

[Yukon Joe]

Confirmation bias is hard to notice

Sure. But I think most people here are pretty open about what their biases are, and I don't see anyone going "100% book it - Arizona is moving to SLC". Instead it's people linking the two stories and speculating...

 

[Salsero1]

Sure. But I think most people here are pretty open about what their biases are, and I don't see anyone going "100% book it - Arizona is moving to SLC". Instead it's people linking the two stories and speculating...

You're not reading the thread.

Many posters here dont want Arizona in the league, they want the Coyotes to move, that's the core bias in the megathread. Any and all snippets that come out get forced into that bias and become proof that their dream will come true.

 

[Yukon Joe]

You're not reading the thread.

Many posters here dont want Arizona in the league, they want the Coyotes to move, that's the core bias in the megathread. Any and all snippets that come out get forced into that bias and become proof that their dream will come true.

I've been reading the megathreads for over a decade now.

I think you're reading a lot more motivation than is warranted. We're just a bunch of people who like talking about the business of hockey, and for over a decade the Coyotes have been one of the biggest stories on that front. I know for myself I was more personally invested when I thought the Coyotes were going to move back to Winnipeg, but since 2011 it's just an interesting story to follow.

 

[GKJ]

He doesn’t own the building. He controls it.

I think.

Regardless NHL isn’t going to let them play in that arena long term.

They won’t have to because they’re going to get the building. The building is happening because the Olympics is happening.

And I believe he does own the Delta Center

 

[Mike Jones]

If you want a lesson in fans suffering at the hands of the league's lack foresight or lack of vision, I suggest you talk to some Coyotes fans.

All part of the failed experiment. Time to move on.

 

[Salsero1]

All part of the failed experiment. Time to move on.

You should be more upset about the Flames bending your city over a barrel.

 

[aqib]

I’ve never heard anything about the Ducks wanting a new building, but a big key that Bettman has been pushing in the wake of this is wanting the owners to also own their building, and the list of building owners looking for a hockey team and already equipped to house them isn’t long.

They signed a long-term extension a few years ago.

 

[Mike Jones]

You should be more upset about the Flames bending your city over a barrel.

I hope they go too - then we'd have a chance to recover our investment from the new arena. NHL franchises are monstrous cash sucks and there's never anything left for us taxpayers.

 

[aqib]

It's been a long time since the last relocation, but it did introduce the notion of a relocation fee. When the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg the sale price was $170 million - but $60 million of that was a relocation fee going to the league.

Obviously franchise values have increased dramatically from 2011, but let's speculate here. If the Coyotes were to be relocated to Utah - $1 billion sale value, with $500 million in a relocation fee (and $500 mil to Meruello)?

I don't think the league is going to do that AM like the did to ASG. ASG essentially got the Thrashers for free if you look at the going rate for NBA teams at the time. So if they had been able to sell for $170 million they would have recovered all their stated annual losses and turned a profit, while killing the market (if you are in the camp with those who think Atlanta was a good market to begin with). While we can all criticize AM for his missteps, he has tried to salvage the situation in Arizona which was already dire when he walked in.

 

[dj4aces]

Expansion takes three years - Arizona is good to go. They don't even have an arena. They can be in Utah next year.

No... right now, they don't. What they *do* have is a committed owner and a lease agreement with ASU. Yeah, they play in a 4600 seat arena, and that's also a bad look, but there's some semblance of stability in that organization for what might be the first time since the WHA was a thing.

Let's suppose for a moment that the league gets word by the All-Star Game that AZ has an arena plan and shovels are in the ground in NW Phoenix. They could conceivaly open the expansion application process next month. That process could be completed with Salt Lake being officially awarded a franchise by the end of the year. Before you try to refute this, that's exactly the timeline of events from 2018. Seattle submitted an application in February 2018, and was awarded a franchise in December 2018. The only real delay was renovating Key Arena, which is a big reason why the league set them to begin play in 2021. If the same timetable is followed, Salt Lake could be awarded a franchise this December, and it could begin play in 2025 with the understanding that a new arena would be constructed, as Delta Center isn't a great place for hockey.

Fact is, Bettman said he's had a number of talks with SLC, ATL, HOU, and QC. It was further stated in yesterday's press release those discussions, at least with SLC, have been ongoing for two years now. A lot of details can be fleshed out over a two year period. There's no telling how many meetings, and for how many years, he's had meetings with ATL, QC, HOU, or however many other markets areo ut there seeking a franchise.

Expansion, in this way, doesn't take as much time as you think it does, because the foundation has already been set.

 

[Mike Jones]

No... right now, they don't. What they *do* have is a committed owner and a lease agreement with ASU. Yeah, they play in a 4600 seat arena, and that's also a bad look, but there's some semblance of stability in that organization for what might be the first time since the WHA was a thing.

Let's suppose for a moment that the league gets word by the All-Star Game that AZ has an arena plan and shovels are in the ground in NW Phoenix. They could conceivaly open the expansion application process next month. That process could be completed with Salt Lake being officially awarded a franchise by the end of the year. Before you try to refute this, that's exactly the timeline of events from 2018. Seattle submitted an application in February 2018, and was awarded a franchise in December 2018. The only real delay was renovating Key Arena, which is a big reason why the league set them to begin play in 2021. If the same timetable is followed, Salt Lake could be awarded a franchise this December, and it could begin play in 2025 with the understanding that a new arena would be constructed, as Delta Center isn't a great place for hockey.

Fact is, Bettman said he's had a number of talks with SLC, ATL, HOU, and QC. It was further stated in yesterday's press release those discussions, at least with SLC, have been ongoing for two years now. A lot of details can be fleshed out over a two year period. There's no telling how many meetings, and for how many years, he's had meetings with ATL, QC, HOU, or however many other markets areo ut there seeking a franchise.

Expansion, in this way, doesn't take as much time as you think it does, because the foundation has already been set.

Yeah - Arizona is ripe for a move. That is what the league should be prioritizing - moving them to a place like Utah. Or they should be moved to better hockey markets - Hamilton or QC.

 

[Salsero1]

Yeah - Arizona is ripe for a move. That is what the league should be prioritizing - moving them to a place like Utah. Or they should be moved to better hockey markets - Hamilton or QC.

Except the BoG doesn't operate off of emotion or spite. They don't care about satisfying Canadian malcontents. Who in QC or Hamilton wants to purchase and operate a NHL franchise?

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

If Meruelos is willing to take the loss and if NHL is ok with that then there is no time limit.

Wonder if Ryan Smith knows something about Coyotes we don't? Can't imagine he would ask to expand if he knows he can buy the Yotes and move them.

Ryan Smith is going to pay the Expansion fee and get a ready made team in the Coyotes...I'd say its a done deal cause the Arizona situation is awash in red ink and will continue to be a stain...its a f***ing embarrassment and has been for near 10 years

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Yeah - Arizona is ripe for a move. That is what the league should be prioritizing - moving them to a place like Utah. Or they should be moved to better hockey markets - Hamilton or QC.

Move them to Utah and have the next Expansion be Quebec city right f***ing now in 2026...with Nord's 2 be able to draft players in 2024,25 and then 2026

 

[Mike Jones]

Except the BoG doesn't operate off of emotion or spite. They don't care about satisfying Canadian malcontents. Who in QC or Hamilton wants to purchase and operate a NHL franchise?

Maybe somebody who wants a money-making team in a strong hockey market.

Move them to Utah and have the next Expansion be Quebec city right f***ing now in 2026...with Nord's 2 be able to draft players in 2024,25 and then 2026

The problem is that Bettman has made it clear that he hates QC and shows no interest in having a profitable team in a strong market. He spits in the faces of fans whenever he has a chance.

 

[aqib]

So a few thoughts:

1) We can all agree that Smith would not have made this announcement if the league didn't say it was ok. Bill Foley and Seattle both got permission before launching their season ticket drive. TNSE only started saying things publicly after many meetings with the NHL. On the flipside, Balsillie launched a ticket drive for the Predators and got blackballed.

2) If they were to get the Coyotes this would be more like a Denver/Winnipeg situation where the business side would be handled by existing operations.

3) Buying the Avalanche gave COMSAT leverage to get their new arena done this would do the same for Smith.

4) One-team-at-a-time isn't a problem for the NHL. Baseball is really the only sport that can't have an odd number of teams. The NFL is a close second. They did it from 99-01, it was awkward and sucked but it was doable. If the Coyotes get a deal done, the NHL could award Utah a team for 25-26 and then add another one down the line.

5) Never listen to Bettman's "no active process" line. There is a constant process. I remember him once saying that he doesn't have an active list of cities to go to. We learned that was bs when Chipman said that they and a few other cities were invited to pitch to the league years before. They are always talking to cities.

6) Side note on the QC talk. I remember Karmanos saying something to the effect that he would consider investing in a QC team. Now he is 80 so I doubt he would do that now. I only mention this because he did visit Vegas before moving to Carolina and said the league would eventually be there.

 

[Salsero1]

Maybe somebody who wants a money-making team in a strong hockey market.


The problem is that Bettman has made it clear that he hates QC and shows no interest in having a profitable team in a strong market. He spits in the faces of fans whenever he has a chance.

Where are these owners that are beating down the door and being denied?

I get you want to feel persecuted by the USA, but nobody in QC or Hamilton has the cash, desire, or permission from MTL or TOR to have a team there.

The BoG doesn't hate QC, they aren't operating on emotion and Nationalism or Xenophobia. QC just doesn't bring anything meaningful to the table. Based on being even smaller and poorer than Winnipeg, why go there?

 

[Skidooboy]

Except the BoG doesn't operate off of emotion or spite. They don't care about satisfying Canadian malcontents. Who in QC or Hamilton wants to purchase and operate a NHL franchise?

Who i QC?

PKP has been begging for over a decade....

Pierre Karl Péladeau - Wikipedia


billionare with a tv channel, arena, and market.

don't follow hockey much?

 

[Yukon Joe]

I don't think the league is going to do that AM like the did to ASG. ASG essentially got the Thrashers for free if you look at the going rate for NBA teams at the time. So if they had been able to sell for $170 million they would have recovered all their stated annual losses and turned a profit, while killing the market (if you are in the camp with those who think Atlanta was a good market to begin with). While we can all criticize AM for his missteps, he has tried to salvage the situation in Arizona which was already dire when he walked in.

So I don't think the league wants to screw over Meruelo. He took over the Coyotes in difficult circumstances, and he has appeared to try and do the right thing by the franchise.

But I don't think the league is willing to just gift Meruelo hundreds of millions of dollars either.

The fact is that an expansion fee is something like $1 billion. Meruelo paid far less than that to buy the Coyotes. Heck I'm not sure if he paid anything - this news report from 2019 was that Meruelo got control of the Coyotes merely by assuming the existing debt plus promising to fund losses for the next three years.

Alex Meruelo May Get The Arizona Coyotes For Roughly $300 Million

The assumption of the team’s debt may be all that is required to buy it.

www.forbes.com

So if you take the Forbes report at face value my suggestion of $500 million to Meruelo, and $500 million in relocation fees, actually sounds pretty good. Meruelo was a good soldier, makes a little bit of money off his ownership - but the league takes the bulk of the profit.

But let's be clear - I have zero inside information. I'm just speculating based on what has happened in the past plus available news reports.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Who i QC?

PKP has been begging for over a decade....

Pierre Karl Péladeau - Wikipedia


billionare with a tv channel, arena, and market.

don't follow hockey much?

Forget hockey - do you follow markets much?

PKP's money is from Quebecor. There investments have been in cable and newspapers. Those have, frankly, been terrible markets to be in over the past decade. Quebec City was very gently "deferred" Quebec City back in 2016. Since then, the cost of an NHL franchise has only increased, and PKP's money has only decreased.

Look - outside of fans in Quebec City itself, few people would be happier to see the Nords return to the league then me, The people of Quebec City built a brand new arena to NHL specs in hopes of getting an NHL team, to the league is always going to speak kindly about it as a potential market.

But from what I can tell - unless PKP wins one of those crazy powerball lottos, he just doesn't have the money to buy an NHL franchise.

 

[aqib]

So I don't think the league wants to screw over Meruelo. He took over the Coyotes in difficult circumstances, and he has appeared to try and do the right thing by the franchise.

But I don't think the league is willing to just gift Meruelo hundreds of millions of dollars either.

The fact is that an expansion fee is something like $1 billion. Meruelo paid far less than that to buy the Coyotes. Heck I'm not sure if he paid anything - this news report from 2019 was that Meruelo got control of the Coyotes merely by assuming the existing debt plus promising to fund losses for the next three years.

Alex Meruelo May Get The Arizona Coyotes For Roughly $300 Million

The assumption of the team’s debt may be all that is required to buy it.

www.forbes.com

So if you take the Forbes report at face value my suggestion of $500 million to Meruelo, and $500 million in relocation fees, actually sounds pretty good. Meruelo was a good soldier, makes a little bit of money off his ownership - but the league takes the bulk of the profit.

But let's be clear - I have zero inside information. I'm just speculating based on what has happened in the past plus available news reports.

If you trace back every sale of the Coyotes, its basically from Burke to Ellman to Moyes and then NHL to IceAz to Barroway to AM every selling owner basically borrowed money to cover their annual losses and then the incoming owner took over the debt and borrowed a bit more.

So you take the sale price and then - (whatever he put in + the debt he assumed + debt accumulated/losses covered) = profit on the venture

I think the NHL would want some of that if its a big number but they won't ask for ALL of it like they did with ASG. I also don't have inside info either but I think the NHL was angry at how that all went down and went into FU mode. They were also in FU mode with Moyes and Balsillie. They don't have reason to be with AM. That's all I am saying.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Where are these owners that are beating down the door and being denied?

I get you want to feel persecuted by the USA, but nobody in QC or Hamilton has the cash, desire, or permission from MTL or TOR to have a team there.

The BoG doesn't hate QC, they aren't operating on emotion and Nationalism or Xenophobia. QC just doesn't bring anything meaningful to the table. Based on being even smaller and poorer than Winnipeg, why go there?

So I agree that the league doesn't hate QC.

But there's only one reason the NHL goes to a new market - $$$. That's all the reason they need.

If someone in Quebec City showed up to write a billion dollar cheque to the NHL I think the city would have a team in short order. The fact there is no team in Quebec City I think indicates there's nobody able or willing to write that cheque.

Hamilton is a little bit different. First of all Jim Balsillie maybe had enough to buy a team in 2009, but based on both the growth in franchise values and the collapse of Blackberry stock he certainly can't afford to now. Plus of course he's now persona non grata in the NHL. Beyond that - if someone was willing to pay a billion dollars you of course have the issue with the Leafs and Sabres claiming rights - but again money has a way of solving all problems.