Olympics: Bettman hints NHL won't play in 2018 and 2022

[Jussi]

Assuming the KHL continues to grow, I wonder how many Russian players will even be in the NHL by the time 2018 rolls around?

The current trend is pointing for the KHL to shrink. THe smaller and poorer teams look likely to be dropping out unless the salary cap is lowered considerably and the luxury tax is raised to 100%.

 

[Jussi]

I understand how Olympics started with "amateur" athletes. But it's not longer that way any more. You send your best skiers, best runners, swimmers, etc. now. Why should hockey be any different!?

It very well could end the NHL partnership and that will be so sad because I love seeing the world's best players competing on the world's biggest stage. Typical Gary Bettman to screw things up, again!.

You do realize Bettman is only a messenger for the owners? He doesn't make the decision on Olympic participation but the owners.

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

As the number of Russians in the NHL continues to dwindle, using the Russian-based KHL teams as a springboard to create a coordinated national team makes a lot of sense.

''Dwindle''...Do you realize what's happening in the World of Hockey right now?

The KHL is not only losing talent each season, but as soon as the NHL expands even more fringe players will leave the KHL. From the Vancouver Olympics season where only 15 or so Russians were playing in the NHL, we are now over 25, with the amount of ''Top'' Russian prospects of their birth year each year coming in waves to the CHL and starting earlier in the NHL that's just more and more players that will add to this figure.

And I doubt they have a national team of sub par quality players, those days are gone, and will never arrive again in this day in age.

The KHL is helping grow Hockey in Russia, but the NHL is clearly the one benefiting in terms of acquisition of the talent being produced , we are about to hit a new era where pretty soon we'll be talking about over 50 Russians and counting will be playing in the NHL. The 90's all over again are coming.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

"Kazakahstan" as Bettman calls it, is certainly more of a hockey hotbed than the US.

Are as many sports available to kids over there as there are offered in the US ?

 

[Yakushev72]

''Dwindle''...Do you realize what's happening in the World of Hockey right now?

The KHL is not only losing talent each season, but as soon as the NHL expands even more fringe players will leave the KHL. From the Vancouver Olympics season where only 12 or so Russians were playing in the NHL, we are now at 25, with the amount of ''Top'' Russian prospects of their birth year each year coming in waves to the CHL and starting earlier in the NHL that's just more and more players that will add to this figure.

And I doubt they have a national team of sub par quality players, those days are gone, and will never arrive again in this day in age.

The KHL is helping grow Hockey in Russia, but the NHL is clearly the one benefiting in terms of acquisition of the talent being produced , we are about to hit a new era where pretty soon we'll be talking about over 50 Russians and counting will be playing in the NHL. The 90's all over again are coming.

First of all, please cite the source of statistics that show that only 12 Russians played in the NHL during the 2009-2010 season. I was referring to the 90's and 00 decades, when there were far more Russians in the NHL than there are now. Have you ever heard of "the KHL factor?" If not, you should make yourself familiar with it before discussing this subject in public.

That's a pretty rosy scenario that you have for NHL expansion! Where to? Hamilton? Saskatoon? Red Deer? More importantly, where will they get the players from? The NHL is already stretched paper-thin when it comes to talent, so where are they going to get 50 to 60 more players of so-called "NHL caliber" to entertain the fans with their dazzling skills?

Expansion from 21 to 30 teams was accomplished almost exclusively through infusion of talent from Europe. But Europe is already maxed out, and actually in the process of declining, in producing hockey talent. The Czech and Slovak hockey programs are in a tailspin, and were considered easy targets at the Sochi Olympics. Finland and Sweden are going strong, but they are tiny countries that are already maxed out in producing hockey talent. They don't have the capacity to significantly increase production. With the Florida Panthers franchise in jeopardy because of poor attendance, and Arizona not far behind, hockey is declining, not growing, in the American South. I just can't see where expansion would fit in.

As for the KHL, I am not the only one who believes that it should and will become the base of the Russian national team. It is very possible that the KHL will end up being a primarily Russian league. Since most of the other countries represented have only one team, its really hard to generate rivalries that will fuel fan interest. Many of the rivalries in Russian cities are long-standing, going all the way back to the '50's, and those will likely hold up. Using the KHL as a base for the national team would have certain advantages that would likely improve the performance and achievements of Russian teams, especially at the Olympic level.

There is no risk, because, except for the 2008 WC team, Russia stopped producing top level national teams almost immediately after its best players started migrating to the NHL in 1989. Russian fans owe a debt of gratitude to Ovechkin and Malkin, who have consistently played for the national team even when it was difficult to do so, but look at their performances at Sochi, where they both scored a total of one (1) goal. They were competing against each other to see who could put on the most spectacular individual show, instead of working together to achieve team goals. Better to have players of less talent who have been ingrained into a system, and who play with passion and fire. The guys who leave Russia to go the NHL are motivated only by money, and individual goals do not blend with collective goals.

 

[Yakushev72]

The current trend is pointing for the KHL to shrink. THe smaller and poorer teams look likely to be dropping out unless the salary cap is lowered considerably and the luxury tax is raised to 100%.

I always though it was a stretch for the KHL to be anything other than a Russian league. Support in the other countries is too limited, and frankly, Russian money is keeping some of the more marginal franchises in other countries afloat. There are few if any rivalries outside of the Russian cities. My opinion is that the KHL will ultimately have no choice other than to limit its operations outside of Russia,

I also don't think it is bad for the KHL to drop a few more teams, even a few Russian teams. Until 1967, the NHL was limited to 6 teams. All 6 were loaded with talent, and the quality of the on-ice product was extraordinarily high. The KHL could learn from that. Being in a race to over-expand is counter-productive, in my opinion. I would like to see fewer KHL teams, with a concomitant strengthening of the VHL to function as a top level minor league. If those two factors were to work in synch, and the financial resources were in place, the quality of KHL hockey could achieve major growth.

 

[Urbanskog]

But Europe is already maxed out, and actually in the process of declining, in producing hockey talent. The Czech and Slovak hockey programs are in a tailspin

How is the talent production declining in Europe? The numbers are growing basically everywhere. The recession of Czech hockey is coming to an end as well and since the 2006 NHL Draft, there have never been as many Czechs drafted as this year, except for 2011.

Hockey is declining, not growing, in the American South.

Once again, how? Hockey is growing basically everywhere in the States: http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2013/09/13/hockeys-growth-in-the-united-states-2003-2013/

Do you have some kind of an anti-hockey agenda?

 

[Jussi]

How is the talent production declining in Europe? The numbers are growing basically everywhere. The recession of Czech hockey is coming to an end as well and since the 2006 NHL Draft, there have never been as many Czechs drafted as this year, except for 2011.



Once again, how? Hockey is growing basically everywhere in the States: http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2013/09/13/hockeys-growth-in-the-united-states-2003-2013/

Do you have some kind of an anti-hockey agenda?

If not for for the CHL, Czech situation would look much worse.

 

[Yakushev72]

How is the talent production declining in Europe? The numbers are growing basically everywhere. The recession of Czech hockey is coming to an end as well and since the 2006 NHL Draft, there have never been as many Czechs drafted as this year, except for 2011.



Once again, how? Hockey is growing basically everywhere in the States: http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2013/09/13/hockeys-growth-in-the-united-states-2003-2013/

Do you have some kind of an anti-hockey agenda?

Bottom line, there is no incentive for poorer countries like the Czechs and Slovaks to fund a domestic program for the sole purpose of sending the pick of the letter overseas to the NHL, where NHL owners can pay the European Federations basically bird seed in order to use the talent they have produced for their own profits. The Czechs and Slovaks get nothing back in return. The Czechs and Slovaks have less disposable capital than the Swedes and Finns to fund hockey programs and get Absolutely zero return on their investments.

 

[Jussi]

Bottom line, there is no incentive for poorer countries like the Czechs and Slovaks to fund a domestic program for the sole purpose of sending the pick of the letter overseas to the NHL, where NHL owners can pay the European Federations basically bird seed in order to use the talent they have produced for their own profits. The Czechs and Slovaks get nothing back in return. The Czechs and Slovaks have less disposable capital than the Swedes and Finns to fund hockey programs and get Absolutely zero return on their investments.

The money's good for the Czechs and Slovaks, otherwise they wouldn't have signed transfer agreements. The money's good enough for at least one player's salary for.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Bottom line, there is no incentive for poorer countries like the Czechs and Slovaks to fund a domestic program for the sole purpose of sending the pick of the letter overseas to the NHL, where NHL owners can pay the European Federations basically bird seed in order to use the talent they have produced for their own profits. The Czechs and Slovaks get nothing back in return. The Czechs and Slovaks have less disposable capital than the Swedes and Finns to fund hockey programs and get Absolutely zero return on their investments.

The problem is that in NA the way hockey for kids is paid for is totally different. Here the parents foot the bill and then if they make the CHL or NCAA the fans essentially cover the cost at that point. As such there is no expectation for the NHL to pay the minor hockey or CHL / NCAA clubs of kids from CAN or USA. What really needs to happen in Europe is the NHL players from there need to pay a percentage of their earnings back to the club that paid for their development. I don't agree with transfer fees as that is a system more geared towards European leagues and development models.

 

[Jussi]

The problem is that in NA the way hockey for kids is paid for is totally different. Here the parents foot the bill and then if they make the CHL or NCAA the fans essentially cover the cost at that point. As such there is no expectation for the NHL to pay the minor hockey or CHL / NCAA clubs of kids from CAN or USA. What really needs to happen in Europe is the NHL players from there need to pay a percentage of their earnings back to the club that paid for their development. I don't agree with transfer fees as that is a system more geared towards European leagues and development models.

I believe Russia is the only one in Europe where the hockey school of a club pays for the development, so to speak. In Finland and Sweden the parents pay for the hockey until the kid reaches the junior league level where the club covers equipment (In Finland it's only the Liiga teams A- or B- juniors that do that, Jokerit cover that for the C-juniors as well since this season). I've mentioned this before, you really should pay more attention.

 

[Jonimaus]

How is the talent production declining in Europe? The numbers are growing basically everywhere.

Can you give us some numbers/proof to this statement?

 

[Jussi]

Can you give us some numbers/proof to this statement?

The number of registered player numbers going up (even with the variances in the way countries register players) in some countries, though they tend to go ups and down yearly. Czech had 100K registered players, Russia has about 300K people playing hockey.

 

[Jonimaus]

The number of registered player numbers going up (even with the variances in the way countries register players) in some countries, though they tend to go ups and down yearly. Czech had 100K registered players, Russia has about 300K people playing hockey.

Maybe the European players are just getting worse then. I'm not sure if the numbers of players in Sweden for example is growing or declining, but our future looks terrible.

I dislike the terms he used since numbers are not a guarantee for actual "talent".

Could you post the sources to this? Not that I don't believe you, but I'm interested in looking at the growth/decline in the european countries. All google gives me is how many NHL players each country got.

 

[Jussi]

Maybe the European players are just getting worse then. I'm not sure if the numbers of players in Sweden for example is growing or declining, but our future looks terrible.

I dislike the terms he used since numbers are not a guarantee for actual "talent".

Could you post the sources to this? Not that I don't believe you, but I'm interested in looking at the growth/decline in the european countries. All google gives me is how many NHL players each country got.

Yeah, your country had a terrible draft this year...

 

[Jonimaus]

Yeah, your country had a terrible draft this year...

Based on the shoes, or rather skates, they will have to fill, yes.

We had a decent transition from the elite core of Forsberg, Sundin, Lidström to Zetterberg, Sedin, Bäckström, and our plethora of d-men. But I don't think there's any swedish hockey fan who cares even a little about international tournaments that is not worried about the future of our offence. There's very few with even the potential to become superstars.

Also, I'd still like the source. You seem sure of the numbers so I assume you're just not pulling them out of your ass.

 

[Jussi]

Based on the shoes, or rather skates, they will have to fill, yes.

We had a decent transition from the elite core of Forsberg, Sundin, Lidström to Zetterberg, Sedin, Bäckström, and our plethora of d-men. But I don't think there's any swedish hockey fan who cares even a little about international tournaments that is not worried about the future of our offence. There's very few with even the potential to become superstars.

Also, I'd still like the source. You seem sure of the numbers so I assume you're just not pulling them out of your ass.

IIHF site.

 

[Yakushev72]

The number of registered player numbers going up (even with the variances in the way countries register players) in some countries, though they tend to go ups and down yearly. Czech had 100K registered players, Russia has about 300K people playing hockey.

The context of the discussion earlier was the assertion that the number of NHL-caliber players in Europe is continually growing by leaps and bounds, thereby justifying the decision of the NHL to engage in major expansion because high level talent is spilling over everywhere in Europe. At a minimum, this assertion requires proof! Increases in the number of registered players is only relevant if it is the form of increases or expansion of the number of junior leagues whose goal is to train kids to become pro and national team caliber (e.g., the CHL). A huge portion of registered players in the US and Canada are 45-year olds playing in beer leagues. These are hardly NHL or Olympic prospects.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

I believe Russia is the only one in Europe where the hockey school of a club pays for the development, so to speak. In Finland and Sweden the parents pay for the hockey until the kid reaches the junior league level where the club covers equipment (In Finland it's only the Liiga teams A- or B- juniors that do that, Jokerit cover that for the C-juniors as well since this season). I've mentioned this before, you really should pay more attention.

I'm sure the subsidies in Sweden and Finland are less than they are in Russia, Czech and Slovakia but still more than in NA, and the level of subsidization should be factored into the equation.

 

[Jussi]

I'm sure the subsidies in Sweden and Finland are less than they are in Russia, Czech and Slovakia but still more than in NA, and the level of subsidization should be factored into the equation.

Parents/player pays for everything until they reach the C- and B-junior age (15-18) and that only happens with SM-liiga teams. If the kid is palying for the junior of a MEstis club or something like that, no dice. Finnish hockey magazine Jääkiekkolehti's latest issue's editorial mentioned how the editor-in-chief's friends have grown to C/B-junior age while also stretching the families economy. He was asked by them "would you be able to pay 600€ a month plus stick and other equipment costs so that your son could play hockey in the country's highest level league?". He wrote that "as one who knows exactly his family's mandatory monthly costs, it was easy to add: not a chance."

 

[TheTwelfth]

Based on the shoes, or rather skates, they will have to fill, yes.

We had a decent transition from the elite core of Forsberg, Sundin, Lidström to Zetterberg, Sedin, Bäckström, and our plethora of d-men. But I don't think there's any swedish hockey fan who cares even a little about international tournaments that is not worried about the future of our offence. There's very few with even the potential to become superstars.

Also, I'd still like the source. You seem sure of the numbers so I assume you're just not pulling them out of your ass.

Those guys are from two different generations. The 80's generations was a big drought for Swedish hockey until the national program focus ("Russinlägren") payed off with the 87 generation and onwards. Swedish hockey looks the healthiest it has been since the early 90's.

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

Hope they go to at least one so the World can see McDavid and Crosby on one team while the Olympic Dynasty continues for Canada.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

sending the pick of the letter overseas to the NHL, where NHL owners can pay the European Federations basically bird seed in order to use the talent they have produced for their own profits. The Czechs and Slovaks get nothing back in return. and get Absolutely zero return on their investments.

After players from poorer countries make an NHL team they get paid pretty well. NHL teams outside of Florida and Phoenix are going to profit anyways.

 

[Yakushev72]

After players from poorer countries make an NHL team they get paid pretty well. NHL teams outside of Florida and Phoenix are going to profit anyways.

Let's put it this way - in Finland and Sweden, family income is high enough so that very few talented kids would be turned away from the opportunity to learn hockey for financial reasons. In Russia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, that is not true. NHL transfer fees don't come anywhere close to funding broad-based, mass participation hockey programs.