Better Goal Scorer.....66 or 8?

[qc14]

Iginla 7th all time, my goat.

Maybe the most underrated HoFer of all time

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

That's cool. We covered this a few posts ago – durability/longevity doesn't carry the same value for you as it does for me. I'm in awe of Gordie Howe for similar reasons. Howe would be considered a great player if he'd played only a decade. However, he's generally considered among the top-4 players of all time because he sustained his excellence into his 40s, and then rebooted at 50. Obviously, Howe and Ovechkin are very different players from totally different eras, but they share an extremely rare longevity that factors into their legacies. I don't know your thoughts on Howe, but you've expressed your opinion on Ovechkin clearly and fairly, even if I disagree.

For me, Howe is in the top-4 because he was was top 3 in the Hart voting pretty much every year for 15 years and won the Ross 6 times. Led the NHL in points, assists, goals, etc. multiple times during that stretch. Overall, there's no question he's up there. But in terms of just goal scoring, Howe needed about 200 extra games to beat Richard's record, so it makes sense to me that the goal scoring trophy is the Rocket instead of the Howe. The guy who did it with so many fewer chances seems like the better scorer to me, not the guy who lasted longer to be able to accumulate more overall.

 

[qc14]

I'd also point out that from 2005-06 until 2015-16, OV took 4228 shots, over 1300 shots ahead of 2nd place. Only about 30 guys has more than half of OVs shot totals during that time. Is it really that impressive that the guy doubling almost everyone else's shot totals gets more to go in?

Of all of the awful arguments to discredit Ovechkin I've seen "his goals shouldn't count because he shot so much more than everyone else" is one of the worst lol

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Of all of the awful arguments to discredit Ovechkin I've seen "his goals shouldn't count because he shot so much more than everyone else" is one of the worst lol

Then maybe you should stop building strawmen to make that argument.

What I'm actually saying is that efficiency matters when it comes to being the greatest. Trying twice as many times doesn't mean you're actually better.

 

[cheechoo]

Maybe the most underrated HoFer of all time

His raw numbers are already impressive, 600+ goals - largely in the heart of the DPE and missed a season smack dab in the middle of his peak due to the '05 lockout.

Best center he played with was Conroy? Daymond Langkow?

Total warrior.

 

[filinski77]

Then maybe you should stop building strawmen to make that argument.

What I'm actually saying is that efficiency matters when it comes to being the greatest. Trying twice as many times doesn't mean you're actually better.

Bad take.

You are inherently equating that a shot on new is a bad thing if it doesn’t go in the back of the net. That is a huge flaw and anyone that actually thinks that does not understand hockey at all. This isn’t basketball.

Shots on net are a good thing one way or another. Ovechkin is elite at generating shots from anywhere on the ice.

And despite this, you also have to consider the distance that Ovechkin shoots from. Ovi shoots from significantly further away than other elite players do.

 

[filinski77]

For the same reason that people say Jordan was a better scorer than LeBron.

Not a comparable situation at all…

Yes LeBron has more points, and Jordan has more scoring titles. That leaves an opening for debate.

In this debate, Ovechkin has BOTH more overall goals (28% more), AND 3 times as many goal scoring titles (9 for Ovi vs 3 for Mario).

 

[filinski77]

It's not even about Lemieux. To me, saying OV is the greatest goal scorer is like saying Emmitt Smith is the greatest running back. They're both very good players who will hold the accumulation record mostly because they played so many more games and got so many more attempts than the guys who were clearly better, but I wouldn't pick either one of them if I needed someone to play that role for one game/season/playoffs/whatever. So I'm trying to understand how longevity = greatest, because it makes zero sense to me. If the answer is just that you have a differently definition what "greatest" means, then I'm probably not going to get an answer that helps it make sense.

How is Ovi like Emmitt Smith?

Yes, both will be the #1 raw accumulator leaders.

But Emmitt smith is in a FIVE way tie for 2nd for the most rushing titles. Jim Brown has literally double the amount of rushing titles (8 vs 4).

Ovechkin on the other hand is Emmitt Smith and Jim Brown combined. Ovi will have nothing the most raw goals AND already has won the goalscoring title more times than anyone in NHL history (9 vs 7 for #2).

You have to remember that Ovi’s claim to the greatest goal scorer came years and years ago as soon as he won his 7th Rocket.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

How is Ovi like Emmitt Smith?

Yes, both will be the #1 raw accumulator leaders.

But Emmitt smith is in a FIVE way tie for 2nd for the most rushing titles. Jim Brown has literally double the amount of rushing titles (8 vs 4).

Ovechkin on the other hand is Emmitt Smith and Jim Brown combined. Ovi will have nothing the most raw goals AND already has won the goalscoring title more times than anyone in NHL history (9 vs 7 for #2).

You have to remember that Ovi’s claim to the greatest goal scorer came years and years ago as soon as he won his 7th Rocket.

You should go back and read all my posts about how there were only like 3 elite offensive players in league for most of OVs prime, and Stamkos was the only person during his prime that was ever more than just very good at scoring goals, and that was only until he got hurt. Winning because of lack of quality competition isn't impressive to me. Neither is accumulating the most because you tried twice as many times.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Bad take.

You are inherently equating that a shot on new is a bad thing if it doesn’t go in the back of the net. That is a huge flaw and anyone that actually thinks that does not understand hockey at all. This isn’t basketball.

Shots on net are a good thing one way or another. Ovechkin is elite at generating shots from anywhere on the ice.

And despite this, you also have to consider the distance that Ovechkin shoots from. Ovi shoots from significantly further away than other elite players do.

It's more like comparing a guy with a machine gun and a guy with a bolt action rifle, and claiming the machine gunner is the better shooter because he hit the target 50 times with his 500 rounds, while the guy with rifle hit the target 30% of the shots he took.

 

[authentic]

How is Ovi like Emmitt Smith?

Yes, both will be the #1 raw accumulator leaders.

But Emmitt smith is in a FIVE way tie for 2nd for the most rushing titles. Jim Brown has literally double the amount of rushing titles (8 vs 4).

Ovechkin on the other hand is Emmitt Smith and Jim Brown combined. Ovi will have nothing the most raw goals AND already has won the goalscoring title more times than anyone in NHL history (9 vs 7 for #2).

You have to remember that Ovi’s claim to the greatest goal scorer came years and years ago as soon as he won his 7th Rocket.

Without lockouts he’s have over 1000 goals, very easily the greatest goal scorer ever especially to do it in this era.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Without lockouts he’s have over 1000 goals, very easily the greatest goal scorer ever especially to do it in this era.

How many does Mario score without cancer or the back injuries? 1200? 1300?

 

[TheLegend27]

Then maybe you should stop building strawmen to make that argument.

What I'm actually saying is that efficiency matters when it comes to being the greatest. Trying twice as many times doesn't mean you're actually better.

You’re ignoring the degree of difficulty when it comes to goal scoring. A rebound tap in is a high percentage play, but it doesn’t equal generating your own shot from far out. Last year, Reinhart shot 6% better than Matthews, but we all know Matthews was a better goal scorer that year. Point is shooting 21.6% compared to 11.8% for Pastrňák. Is Point a definitively better goal scorer when both are at 32 goals?. I’d take Pastrňák. Picking and choosing spots shouldn’t be used as a big argument over who’s the better scorer. I don’t see other players taking the amount of shots Ovi takes and winning rockets… maybe because they can’t score consistently from the places Ovi scores.

 

[qc14]

It's more like comparing a guy with a machine gun and a guy with a bolt action rifle, and claiming the machine gunner is the better shooter because he hit the target 50 times with his 500 rounds, while the guy with rifle hit the target 30% of the shots he took.

This is exactly why I have always thought that Craig Simpson is the greatest goal scorer of all time