Better Goal Scorer.....66 or 8?

[SnowblindNYR]

I often wonder just how many goals Lemieux would have if he played in todays game where he didn’t have the likes of Hal Gill hooking and holding him. It would be incredible to see

But wouldn't this work both ways with defensemen that are far more mobile and can skate?

 

[Toby91ca]

If you are looking at individual point contributions then you also need to look at league points per game and not league goals per game. There is an average of more than one point per goal. If you add up every player's individual point total, then that is greater than the total goals scored per game. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

It’s simple math though. Average points per game per player should be exactly the same if goals scored stays the same, so looking at goals scored should be fine. This assumes every goal gets 2 assists…of course, some only get 1 and some get none but there is no way that would create a significant statistical difference.

 

[SkinsFan09]

I just cant. It’s Lemieux. I don’t think there’s a coach in the world that would choose Ovy for one shift late in the big game over Mario in their primes.

Of course the record matters generally but that’s about longevity in the end.

Okay but here's the problem with blowing it off as "longevity". He's not chugging along scoring 16-21 goals just to get to 895. He is 39 years old and if not for injury would be pushing for 60 goals this year. At 39. For a team that is a Cup contender. No. 1 in the NHL in G and ESG/60 this year.

That is fundamentally different than accumulation of stats.

 

[SkinsFan09]

He also scored more goals in the the most clutch situations.

Of course there is an argument for Lemieux to be a better goal scorer than Ovechkin. He had 13 short handed goals one year!

Aside from shorthanded, which is a fair point, they both score/scored goals in every way. Ovechkin is No. 1 all time in game-winning goals, Lemieux is not in the top 50. 15.2% of Ovechkin's total goals compared to 10.7% of Lemieux total goals. Neither are in the Top 40 for game-winning goals in the playoffs.

Now, before someone reads this and gets ideas ... LEMIEUX IS A CLEAR CUT BETTER PLAYER THAN OVECHKIN. But some of the stuff being put down here is nostalgia narrative.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

The difference between Lemieux and Ovechkin is the difference between a notoriously unhealthy player and a notoriously healthy player.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

But wouldn't this work both ways with defensemen that are far more mobile and can skate?

When those far more mobile defensemen who can skate aren't able to keep McDavid/MacKinnon/Kuch from putting up 130+, I don't know if they'd be super effective stopping Lemieux.

 

[psycat]

But wouldn't this work both ways with defensemen that are far more mobile and can skate?

You don't believe people in the 80s+90s+2000s could skate? Interesting take.

 

[Unspecified]

I think the goal scoring record was expected to be broken eventually but the point totals likely never will be

 

[Unspecified]

You don't believe people in the 80s+90s+2000s could skate? Interesting take.

That Orr character was a horrible skater lol

 

[Craig Button]

Lemieux AINEC

 

[Lshap]

For me, scoring close to 900 goals over 20 seasons is harder than scoring 85 goals in one season.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

For me, scoring close to 900 goals over 20 seasons is harder than scoring 85 goals in one season.

To me, scoring 613 goals in 745 games seems like it's much harder than scoring close to 900 in 1500 games.

 

[Lshap]

To me, scoring 613 goals in 745 games seems like it's much harder than scoring close to 900 in 1500 games.

There's no wrong answer, honestly. It simply comes down to whether you value all-time peak or extended greatness. Lemieux was the single most dominant player I ever saw, however if we're measuring goal-scoring, my personal preference is the guy who's been bringing it at an insanely consistent level for 20 years.

 

[tarheelhockey]

But wouldn't this work both ways with defensemen that are far more mobile and can skate?

In terms of scoring rate, yes it breaks more or less even.

In terms of injury accumulation, it’s night and day.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

There's no wrong answer, honestly. It simply comes down to whether you value all-time peak or extended greatness. Lemieux was the single most dominant player I ever saw, however if we're measuring goal-scoring, my personal preference is the guy who's been bringing it at an insanely consistent level for 20 years.

To me, bringing it at an insanely consistent level for 20 years is a measure of durability more than goal scoring skill. My preference is the guy who matched Gretzky's goal production rate over his first 745 games, before cancer/back issues caused him to retire for 3 years while still in his prime.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

In terms of scoring rate, yes it breaks more or less even.

In terms of injury accumulation, it’s night and day.

In terms of scoring rate, it's an arms race. Offenses with great players put up big numbers, and defenses adapt to try to stop them. Then offenses adapt to get around the new defensive strategies, or bigger goalie pads, or whatever, and then the defenses adapt to not being able to hook/hold/obstruct, and the cycle continues. But none of that gives either side a huge advantage for very long. To drastically shift the balance of power and drive scoring rates up, you need something special that the other side can't easily counter. From what I can see, that tends to be elite offensive players that can easily outclass all but the best defensemen of their era.

 

[SkinsFan09]

To me, bringing it at an insanely consistent level for 20 years is a measure of durability more than goal scoring skill. My preference is the guy who matched Gretzky's goal production rate over his first 745 games, before cancer/back issues caused him to retire for 3 years while still in his prime.

Being able to score at 50-goal pace as your physical talent plummets with age is skill. This isn't scoring 15 a season to drag your way to the record.

 

[Master P]

Ovi and its not even close.

/thread

 

[Lshap]

To me, bringing it at an insanely consistent level for 20 years is a measure of durability more than goal scoring skill. My preference is the guy who matched Gretzky's goal production rate over his first 745 games, before cancer/back issues caused him to retire for 3 years while still in his prime.

You're right – Ovechkin's greatest quality, maybe even more than his scoring skill, is his durability. But this is where we see it differently. For me, durability is a huge part of an athlete's resume, one that's underrated because it's only seen in retrospect. In any given game, Lemieux might have a bigger impact than Ovi, but when you look back you realize Ovechkin has been making a big impact in 560 more games than Lemieux.

I'm not diminishing the greatness of players whose careers were shortened, like Lemieux, Orr, Bossy, Lafleur, etc.; I'm just factoring in their lack of durability made them great for less time.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Being able to score at 50-goal pace as your physical talent plummets with age is skill.

Being a worse skater and a step slower doesn't really impact OV's ability to stand around and wait for a one-timer.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Being a worse skater and a step slower doesn't really impact OV's ability to stand around and wait for a one-timer.

So we're going back to the lazy Ovechkin only scores one timers narrative?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

You're right – Ovechkin's greatest quality, maybe even more than his scoring skill, is his durability. But this is where we see it differently. For me, durability is a huge part of an athlete's resume, one that's underrated because it's only seen in retrospect. In any given game, Lemieux might have a bigger impact than Ovi, but when you look back you realize Ovechkin has been making a big impact in 560 more games than Lemieux.

I'm not diminishing the greatness of players whose careers were shortened, like Lemieux, Orr, Bossy, Lafleur, etc.; I'm just factoring in their lack of durability made them great for less time.

OV has played in an era when the NHL at least pretends to care about player safety, and defensemen aren't allowed to hack and slash with impunity. I don't believe for one second that he could have stayed this healthy for this long in Lemieux's era. One of Scott Stevens' patented shoulders to the face can drastically alter a career in an instant.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

So we're going back to the lazy Ovechkin only scores one timers narrative?

Do one timers not make up a pretty significant portion of his goals, especially on the PP? Or does he not stand at the circle waiting to unload a bomb?

 

[Video Nasty]

I think the goal scoring record was expected to be broken eventually but the point totals likely never will be

This. Doesn’t diminish the complexity and impressiveness of the feat, but this narrative of being a long thought of “untouchable” or “unbeatable” record drives me crazy. There’s like 50 other Gretzky records that have always seemed more unreachable than total goals.

 

[centipede2233]

Mario was clutched and grabbed and his back paid for it. A lot of those games played he had such a bad back, he couldn’t even tie his skates.