Best Fighter Ever

[Estimated_Prophet]

As far as enforcers go.......John Kordic in his early years devastated everyone that he fought. He rarely lost during his career but definiteley lost some of the rage that he unleashed as a youngster.

Still remember him pounding Wendel at center ice at MLG.

If you want to talk about the greatest fighters of all time then you have to mention Kurtenbach, Robinson, Gillies, Neely and Howe. Even though these were not enforcers by trade....you wouldn't find many goons who would dare square off with one of these guys. I suppose Chara is another guy who could be added to this list. It is funny how current players are never mentioned in this discussion because Georges Laraque is hands down the best fighter of all time (maybe not the most entertaining).

 

[cupcrazyman]

Probert vs Clark (4 Rounds) is my all time fav hockey fights

 

[Mad Habber]

Interesting take.

Fergie was actually in talks to fight George Chuvalo at the CNE one summer so his reputation obviously preceeded him.

Beliveau called him the most imposing man to ever wear the Canadiens jersey and Pollock begged him to come out of retirement in 1971. High praise.

All I know is that in talking to Baun and players of the time, in the years before Ferguson arrived they believed that you could push the Habs around & intimidate them. That changed after his arrival. Also finished second to Laperriere for rookie of the year in 1964.

Why do you bother responding to him.

Every chance he gets, he bashes Ferguson using the same rhetoric. Blah, blah, blah. So you didn't like him, we get it. Move on.

 

[pappyline]

Why do you bother responding to him.

Every chance he gets, he bashes Ferguson using the same rhetoric. Blah, blah, blah. So you didn't like him, we get it. Move on.

Hey, what is your problem? Blah, blah is a pretty sad response. Respond with some facts if you disagree.

 

[Big Phil]

No doubt fergie had a reputation. He was nasty but IMO picked his spots very carefully & had a reputation as a sucker puncher. of course, they loved him in Montreal. Chuvalo would have knocked him out in seconds. 64 must have been a horrible year for rookies.

Other than Green, who of significance did he fight.

Well you were talking about Bobby Hull back there and I seem to remember a game where Ferguson took care of Hull in a fight and Hull's wife allegedly told Ferguson after the game "thank you for teaching my husband a lesson." Now, for those that don't know the hidden meaning behind this, it was alleged that Hull had an abusive marriage (I don't put a lot of stock into it, not my business). But it does show you that Ferguson could pack a mean punch. I'd put him top 10 on my list somewhere

 

[Big Phil]

It is funny how current players are never mentioned in this discussion because Georges Laraque is hands down the best fighter of all time (maybe not the most entertaining).

Hmm, not quite. I like Laraque and he'd scare the crap out of anyone from any era, I wouldnt care if he'd crack a top 10 list, but he didnt outright beat Chara the one time I saw them fight last year so I would be hard pressed to call him the best of all time because it's highly debatable that he's #1 now

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Hmm, not quite. I like Laraque and he'd scare the crap out of anyone from any era, I wouldnt care if he'd crack a top 10 list, but he didnt outright beat Chara the one time I saw them fight last year so I would be hard pressed to call him the best of all time because it's highly debatable that he's #1 now

In both Chara fights Laraque didn't have a real chance to fight Chara. I have seen Chara destroy players (McCabe) but in this case Big Z was clearly looking to land the lucky punch then pull Georges to the ice. Chara is obviously scared to go toe to toe with Laraque as evidenced by the tactics that he employed. You can't penalize Laraque for that!!! Laraque is the Undisputed Heavyweight Champ of the NHL as any player will tell you and he has held this distinction for a long time now. Do we really have to wait 15 years before his legend grows before we can annoint him the greatest fighter of all time.

There is no doubt that Laraque would lay a beat down on guys like Probert who simply weren't nearly big or strong enough to deal with players the size of Laraque. The fact is players are much bigger and stronger today than ever before and the fact that Laraque is the universally acknowledged champ of this era pretty much declares that he is more than likely the games all time champ!

 

[Section311]

Tony Twist- the man was a monster

Didn't he get into a bad motorcycle accident?

 

[Canadiens Fan]

No doubt fergie had a reputation. He was nasty but IMO picked his spots very carefully & had a reputation as a sucker puncher. of course, they loved him in Montreal. Chuvalo would have knocked him out in seconds. 64 must have been a horrible year for rookies.

Other than Green, who of significance did he fight.

The website DropYourGloves.com has taken the trouble to catologue most of Ferguson's fights. Of course, this is not a complete list. I've included some of the comments from the websites user's as well.

1963-64 Ted Green x2 (Oct.8th. Just 12 seconds into the game the two collided and dropped the gloves. Ferguson landed three quick blows numbing Green and instantly taking the title as hockey's unofficial heavyweight champion, a title he never relinquished until he retired) Westfall, Gendron, Nevin, Mohns, Shack, Ron Stewart

1964-65 Fleming x2,

Nesterenko x2 (Apr. 27th Nesterenko and Ferguson come together along the boards near the blue line and are fighting for the puck. For whatever reason Nesterenko brings his stick down on top of Ferguson's head intentionally. Ferguson must have had a skull like Domi cause it didn't do much damage. Ferguson then drops the gloves landing two glancing right hands. Nesterenko then finally drops his stick and gloves. Then BOOM Fergie lands a beauty of right hand right on the button. Instant blood from Nesterenko's nose. As Nesterenko is out on his feet Ferguson lands two more rights as Nesterenko is crumbling. Players gather round. After a couple minutes Nesterenko finally gets off the ice and goes off for repairs. The ref had to hold him up) Pulford, Arnie Brown, Stemkowski x2, Langlois

Douglas (Apr. 6th. Ferguson skates into the Leafs zone on the attack. When he gets to the net area, he knocks Toronto goalie Johnny Bower down from behind. Douglas hauls Ferguson off his goalie and shortly after they drop the gloves behind the play. Ferguson lands several crisp right hands to the head while Douglas lands only a body shot with the left as they briefly go toe-to-toe. Douglas starts taking some heavy shots from under and over and puts his head down. Players from both sides are encroaching on the scrap and one of the linesmen tries to intervene without success. Douglas lands a decent right and Ferguson slips to the ice. Douglas connects with one more before the zebras clean it up. Clear win for Ferguson. He dominated the early going and though Douglas rallied late, it wasn't enough.)

1965-66 Shack, Selby, Nesterenko x2, Baun x2, Douglas x2, Stemkowski

1966-67 Neilson, Baun, Woytowich, Bergman, Hillman, Dennis Hull, Pappin, Howie Young

1967-68 Kurtenbach, Maki, Bergman, Hillman, Howie Young, Flett, Seiling, Green (Apr. 4th Taken from a Stan Fischler book on tough guys. The "Big Bad Bruins" were at their badest, and were planning to rough Montreal up. But Ferguson figured out their strategy and went right after Green, who was reputed to be one of the toughest--if not the toughest--fighters in the league. Ferguson got Green's jersey over his head and pummeled him with rights. The Bruins were totally demoralized after that, and the Canadiens went on to a relatively easy series victory.)

1968-69 Watson x2, Douglas, Bobby Hull x2 (Dec. 7th In the first period Ferguson cut Hull's nose with a high stick. An enraged Hull went right after Ferguson and hit him with three rights. Ferguson responded with 2 rights and the fight was broken up. Both the Chicago and Montreal newspapers gave the fight to Hull, with the Montreal paper adding that Ferguson had a large welt on the side of his face) Neilson, Fleming, Awrey

1969-70 Plager, Bill White (During the brawl, Ferguson left the bench and according to the LA Times, that gave the Canadiens a 7-6 advantage when no one from the Kings followed Ferguson onto the ice. Ferguson went for White who had another smaller Canadien player. White got in the first punch but Ferguson took over from there eventually having White on the ground pummeling him) Sanderson, Awrey, Magnusson

1970-71 Peters, Geldart, Barrett, Corrigan, Nolet, Monahan, Walton, Sanderson, Lawson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojDz9-iz2TY

from the legends of hockey website ... From the moment he suited up for the Montreal Canadiens Ferguson vowed to be "the meanest, rottenest, most miserable cuss ever to play in the NHL."

 

[pappyline]

Well you were talking about Bobby Hull back there and I seem to remember a game where Ferguson took care of Hull in a fight and Hull's wife allegedly told Ferguson after the game "thank you for teaching my husband a lesson." Now, for those that don't know the hidden meaning behind this, it was alleged that Hull had an abusive marriage (I don't put a lot of stock into it, not my business). But it does show you that Ferguson could pack a mean punch. I'd put him top 10 on my list somewhere

Don't let the facts get in the way. I think that quote came from Ferguson's book which was full of BS. Anyway Hull won their one fight as quoted in Canadienfan's post above. Hull challenged Fergy another time but Fergy backed off.

 

[vivianmb]

In both Chara fights Laraque didn't have a real chance to fight Chara. I have seen Chara destroy players (McCabe) but in this case Big Z was clearly looking to land the lucky punch then pull Georges to the ice. Chara is obviously scared to go toe to toe with Laraque as evidenced by the tactics that he employed. You can't penalize Laraque for that!!! Laraque is the Undisputed Heavyweight Champ of the NHL as any player will tell you and he has held this distinction for a long time now. Do we really have to wait 15 years before his legend grows before we can annoint him the greatest fighter of all time.

There is no doubt that Laraque would lay a beat down on guys like Probert who simply weren't nearly big or strong enough to deal with players the size of Laraque. The fact is players are much bigger and stronger today than ever before and the fact that Laraque is the universally acknowledged champ of this era pretty much declares that he is more than likely the games all time champ!

funny i think mitch fritz gave Laraque a run for his money earlier this season...

 

[Dark Shadows]

In both Chara fights Laraque didn't have a real chance to fight Chara. I have seen Chara destroy players (McCabe) but in this case Big Z was clearly looking to land the lucky punch then pull Georges to the ice. Chara is obviously scared to go toe to toe with Laraque as evidenced by the tactics that he employed. You can't penalize Laraque for that!!! Laraque is the Undisputed Heavyweight Champ of the NHL as any player will tell you and he has held this distinction for a long time now. Do we really have to wait 15 years before his legend grows before we can annoint him the greatest fighter of all time.

There is no doubt that Laraque would lay a beat down on guys like Probert who simply weren't nearly big or strong enough to deal with players the size of Laraque. The fact is players are much bigger and stronger today than ever before and the fact that Laraque is the universally acknowledged champ of this era pretty much declares that he is more than likely the games all time champ!

Sorry, but this sort of talk is not acceptable in the History section. It does nothing but initiate troll era arguments.

In the history section, it is close to unanimously accepted that we treat era's equally and assume players would have been on even footing. This is the generic quote throw out every time it comes up.

Well, the list is the Top 100 Hockey Players in History, not the Top 100 Most Skilled Players in history. There is little doubt that if you grabbed a player from the pre-NHL era and dropped them into a game today they'd be overmatched. When looking for the best players in history you have to take into account eras and performance against peers to try and compare across a timeline. If you don't you simply end up taking a list of the best 100 players from the last 20 years and completely ignore the history of the sport, which is just a horrible way to compile a "Best in History" list.

Also, it's pretty weak to assume Modern Player A would dominate in Era B just because he's modern and better. If you placed that player in Era B he would be playing with inferior equipment, with different rules, without the benefits of year-round training and nutrition regimens, forced to work another job half the year when not playing just to survive, likely to be shipped off to war, etc. just to name a few of the issues. A guy like Peter Forsberg may not have lasted longer than 5 seasons without the benefits of modern medicine and custom skates for all his aches, pains, injuries, and ankle woes.

Conversely, Player B moved to Era A would have all the benefits of being groomed through juniors from an early age and essentially training to be a hockey player as a young child. They'd have year-round training and dieticians to ensure peak physical performace. They'd have modern equipment and coaching. They'd have world-class medical care and rehabilitation methods and technology. Who's to say given all these modern advantages they wouldn't perform just as well or better?

The point is, the top tier talent relative to the league is pretty much a fixed percentage throughout history so how a player performs against other players in the same era is generally a good indication of how they would probably perform against players in a different era if they had been given all the same benefits as the modern player.

And it applies to fighting as well. And for the record, Probert was the same height as Laraque, and very strong. Also, Lindros was bigger and stronger(Or at least, as strong. Lindros was a freak) than Laraque and a 3 inch smaller, 20 pound lighter McSorely gave him his only loss in a fight ever.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Who in your opinion is/was the best fighter ever in the NHL? (I guess any type of pro hockey league)

Dave Brown

He literally pummelled other tough guys into the ice. It was scary to see how badly he beat down his opponents.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Gordie Howe closely followed by Orland Kurtenbach is my ranking.

Art Skov the veteran linesman rates them as:

Orland Kurtenbach
Gordie Howe
Fern Flaman
Andy Bathgate (kind of a surprise pick)
John Ferguson

Skov was linesman the night that Howe destroyed Lou Fontinato:
"Howe smashed him with lefts and rights and then fired an uppercut that smashed Lou's nose. I was a linesman for that fight and I just stood back and said "No way, I'm not going into this one." George Hayes was in the game too and he told me to stay out of it. It was a vicious thing but Howe cleaned Fontinato like you've never seen. Louie was never feared in the league after that."

Matt Pavelich another veteran linesman has them:
Orland Kurtenbach

"I've never seen him lose a fight. He's well balanced on his skates, he ducks and weaves just like a prizefighter. He's beat them all, Magnuson, Baun, all the tough guy."​

Gordie Howe
John Ferguson
Bobby Orr
Ted Harris

 

[pappyline]

The website DropYourGloves.com has taken the trouble to catologue most of Ferguson's fights. Of course, this is not a complete list. I've included some of the comments from the websites user's as well.

1963-64 Ted Green x2 (Oct.8th. Just 12 seconds into the game the two collided and dropped the gloves. Ferguson landed three quick blows numbing Green and instantly taking the title as hockey's unofficial heavyweight champion, a title he never relinquished until he retired) Westfall, Gendron, Nevin, Mohns, Shack, Ron Stewart

1964-65 Fleming x2,

Nesterenko x2 (Apr. 27th Nesterenko and Ferguson come together along the boards near the blue line and are fighting for the puck. For whatever reason Nesterenko brings his stick down on top of Ferguson's head intentionally. Ferguson must have had a skull like Domi cause it didn't do much damage. Ferguson then drops the gloves landing two glancing right hands. Nesterenko then finally drops his stick and gloves. Then BOOM Fergie lands a beauty of right hand right on the button. Instant blood from Nesterenko's nose. As Nesterenko is out on his feet Ferguson lands two more rights as Nesterenko is crumbling. Players gather round. After a couple minutes Nesterenko finally gets off the ice and goes off for repairs. The ref had to hold him up) Pulford, Arnie Brown, Stemkowski x2, Langlois

Douglas (Apr. 6th. Ferguson skates into the Leafs zone on the attack. When he gets to the net area, he knocks Toronto goalie Johnny Bower down from behind. Douglas hauls Ferguson off his goalie and shortly after they drop the gloves behind the play. Ferguson lands several crisp right hands to the head while Douglas lands only a body shot with the left as they briefly go toe-to-toe. Douglas starts taking some heavy shots from under and over and puts his head down. Players from both sides are encroaching on the scrap and one of the linesmen tries to intervene without success. Douglas lands a decent right and Ferguson slips to the ice. Douglas connects with one more before the zebras clean it up. Clear win for Ferguson. He dominated the early going and though Douglas rallied late, it wasn't enough.)

1965-66 Shack, Selby, Nesterenko x2, Baun x2, Douglas x2, Stemkowski

1966-67 Neilson, Baun, Woytowich, Bergman, Hillman, Dennis Hull, Pappin, Howie Young

1967-68 Kurtenbach, Maki, Bergman, Hillman, Howie Young, Flett, Seiling, Green (Apr. 4th Taken from a Stan Fischler book on tough guys. The "Big Bad Bruins" were at their badest, and were planning to rough Montreal up. But Ferguson figured out their strategy and went right after Green, who was reputed to be one of the toughest--if not the toughest--fighters in the league. Ferguson got Green's jersey over his head and pummeled him with rights. The Bruins were totally demoralized after that, and the Canadiens went on to a relatively easy series victory.)

1968-69 Watson x2, Douglas, Bobby Hull x2 (Dec. 7th In the first period Ferguson cut Hull's nose with a high stick. An enraged Hull went right after Ferguson and hit him with three rights. Ferguson responded with 2 rights and the fight was broken up. Both the Chicago and Montreal newspapers gave the fight to Hull, with the Montreal paper adding that Ferguson had a large welt on the side of his face) Neilson, Fleming, Awrey

1969-70 Plager, Bill White (During the brawl, Ferguson left the bench and according to the LA Times, that gave the Canadiens a 7-6 advantage when no one from the Kings followed Ferguson onto the ice. Ferguson went for White who had another smaller Canadien player. White got in the first punch but Ferguson took over from there eventually having White on the ground pummeling him) Sanderson, Awrey, Magnusson

1970-71 Peters, Geldart, Barrett, Corrigan, Nolet, Monahan, Walton, Sanderson, Lawson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojDz9-iz2TY

from the legends of hockey website ... From the moment he suited up for the Montreal Canadiens Ferguson vowed to be "the meanest, rottenest, most miserable cuss ever to play in the NHL."

Thanks for the info. I went to the website & there really isn't much info on most of the listed fights. Nesterenko & a lot of those guys weren't known as good fighters. I see Kurtenbach's name there which surprises me if. If fergy went toe to toe with kurtenbach, I will eat some of my words. Somehow I doubt that he did.

 

[raleh]

Thanks for the info. I went to the website & there really isn't much info on most of the listed fights. Nesterenko & a lot of those guys weren't known as good fighters. I see Kurtenbach's name there which surprises me if. If fergy went toe to toe with kurtenbach, I will eat some of my words. Somehow I doubt that he did.

A lot of the time those website list little scraps and such. Like Lindros and Stevens throwing a couple of punches over a bunch of guys' head in front of the net is counted as a fight. So as long as Fergie and Kurtenbach both dropped their gloves, they would count it. It doesn't necessarily have to be toe to toe.

 

[SML]

I always hear stories about Howe and Fontinato, so I have to ask... what was the big deal about Fontinato? The guy listed at 185 pounds and barely has seasons over 100 or so PIM in his career. I saw him at the Howell/Bathgate ceremony, and he looked like Phil Rizzuto, he's a tiny looking little guy, as opposed to Howe, who looks like he could still take you out now if you had it coming to you. Gordie was this huge strong guy in 1951, it just seems like he should have beaten the crap out of a 185 pound guy, but everyone made such a big deal of it. Is there anyone out there that can tell me anything about Fontinato? If Lucic beat the hell out of Sean Avery, I'd kinda say that was the way it was supposed to go... am I wrong?

 

[MXD]

I always hear stories about Howe and Fontinato, so I have to ask... what was the big deal about Fontinato? The guy listed at 185 pounds and barely has seasons over 100 or so PIM in his career. I saw him at the Howell/Bathgate ceremony, and he looked like Phil Rizzuto, he's a tiny looking little guy, as opposed to Howe, who looks like he could still take you out now if you had it coming to you. Gordie was this huge strong guy in 1951, it just seems like he should have beaten the crap out of a 185 pound guy, but everyone made such a big deal of it. Is there anyone out there that can tell me anything about Fontinato? If Lucic beat the hell out of Sean Avery, I'd kinda say that was the way it was supposed to go... am I wrong?

Fontinato and Howe are listed roughly at the same size, so maybe the shrinkage process caught up with him a little earlier...?

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Fontinato and Howe are listed roughly at the same size, so maybe the shrinkage process caught up with him a little earlier...?

Having met Mr. Fontinato, a post hockey career as a farmer, effects of age, injuries etc .. has contributed to him weighing significantly less than when he played.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Post Neck Injury

I always hear stories about Howe and Fontinato, so I have to ask... what was the big deal about Fontinato? The guy listed at 185 pounds and barely has seasons over 100 or so PIM in his career. I saw him at the Howell/Bathgate ceremony, and he looked like Phil Rizzuto, he's a tiny looking little guy, as opposed to Howe, who looks like he could still take you out now if you had it coming to you. Gordie was this huge strong guy in 1951, it just seems like he should have beaten the crap out of a 185 pound guy, but everyone made such a big deal of it. Is there anyone out there that can tell me anything about Fontinato? If Lucic beat the hell out of Sean Avery, I'd kinda say that was the way it was supposed to go... am I wrong?

Lou Fontinato suffered a career ending neck injury while playing for the Montreal Canadiens. Post injury he was nowhere near the physical speciman that he was in his playing days.

 

[Chili]

funny i think mitch fritz gave Laraque a run for his money earlier this season...

Truth. I know Georges is big but Fritz is taking things to another weight class, he is huge. I believe he would be tough for any of the guys named, even Chara.

 

[Dark Shadows]

I always hear stories about Howe and Fontinato, so I have to ask... what was the big deal about Fontinato? The guy listed at 185 pounds and barely has seasons over 100 or so PIM in his career. I saw him at the Howell/Bathgate ceremony, and he looked like Phil Rizzuto, he's a tiny looking little guy, as opposed to Howe, who looks like he could still take you out now if you had it coming to you. Gordie was this huge strong guy in 1951, it just seems like he should have beaten the crap out of a 185 pound guy, but everyone made such a big deal of it. Is there anyone out there that can tell me anything about Fontinato? If Lucic beat the hell out of Sean Avery, I'd kinda say that was the way it was supposed to go... am I wrong?

If you got that weight from Hockeydb.com, it is inaccurate(A lot of sites seem to). They always list the weight of a player in his rookie year or when he was drafted. Fontinato was around 6'2, 220 pounds, which is an inch taller than Howe and 10 pounds heavier.

For the record, he also averaged 156 penalty minutes a year, not "Just barely over 100" and up till that point, few, if any, had ever beaten him in a fight. He started the fight by landing 3 sucker punches on Howe and Howe barely even budged. Just turned, grabbed and destroyed.

Cam Neely was only 6'1, 185 on Hockeydb too. Obviously he packed on 40 pounds somewhere along the line since he was 6'1, 220 pounds when he played for Boston.

Fontinato is #8 in this picture, and he is not a small man. He was an aggressive Defenseman and an awfully tough customer.

 

[greatgazoo]

Lou Fontinato suffered a career ending neck injury while playing for the Montreal Canadiens. Post injury he was nowhere near the physical speciman that he was in his playing days.

And Gordie Howe was just 6'0" 205 lbs.

Pretty small by today's standards. I can't see anyone that size taking on Laraque, Chara, Boogaard, etc.

Players were a lot smaller during the original 6 era!

 

[Shabutie]

Probably not the best fighter of all time, but I've never seen Souray lose a fight.

 

[Dark Shadows]

And Gordie Howe was just 6'0" 205 lbs.

Pretty small by today's standards. I can't see anyone that size taking on Laraque, Chara, Boogaard, etc.

Players were a lot smaller during the original 6 era!

Size is a relatively smaller factor than most people think.

Some of the smaller guys are very tough. A few years ago, P.J Stock was a fighter for Boston/New York, and he is only 5'10, winning many tilts against guys over half a foot taller and 40 pounds heavier than he was.