Best D-Man since Lidstrom?

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Best Defenceman since Lidstrom?


  • Total voters
    441

North Cole

♧ Lem
Jan 22, 2017
11,832
13,497
It was actually in the 2015 Cup Finals that I realized Hedman was the real deal. I think in the first 3 games of that series Kane had 0 points, was a -2, only put up 3 shots in game 1 and 0 in both game 1 & 2. A lot of that was Victor Hedman.

I guess i just have a fundamental disagreement with a lot of hockey fans here but I can’t see how it’s possible to wish you had Karlsson as your team’s #1 Dman rather than Kieth/Hedman. We’ve watched a lot of Cup Finals with Kieth/Doughty/Hedman in them and it’s crystal clear having a #1 D being not only elite on offense but who can also shut down opponent’s best forwards game in and game out when the games matter most is the way better way to go.

Use the “strength of team” excuse if you want but it’s blatant that Karlsson’s type of skill-set isn’t good enough to win Cups. And this new wave of young, offensively-elite, dmen coming through the league are going to have the same lack of results Karlsson did. You’ve gotta be able to play elite-shutdown defense to win in the playoffs. Bottom line

It’s not even worth arguing about anymore because we’ve been doing it since like 2013. Just a fundamental disagreement, which is fine. Karlsson was so awesome to watch play. Definitely must-see hockey whenever he was on the ice, but I’ll always think Kieth/Doughty/Hedman were better.

Agreed. Strength of team argument starts to fall pretty flat on it's face when the person has a Conn Smythe. I get it if the dude is Kunitz and was there for a few cup wins but was obviously a quaternary or lesser character. I feel like the argument starts to reverse when the player is the most valuable player but the excuse is being on a stacked team...obviously you must have some immense value to win a Smythe on a stacked team...

I think Hedman has the opportunity to pass Keith, but for now, 2N, 1CS, 3 cup is ahead in my mind.
 

BHD

Here comes Skinner
Dec 27, 2009
38,385
16,862
Moncton, NB
Chara, Hedman, Karlsson, or Keith in some order. Doughty would round out my Top 5, and then Weber at #6. I'm interested to see who else gets mentioned in this thread.
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
16,482
5,866
Peak: Karlsson (arguably Doughty for his ridiculous playoff performances)

Prime: Keith (arguably Hedman)
Career: Jury is still out but Chara/Keith/Hedman are all good choices.
 

RSPens

Registered User
May 25, 2015
1,891
942
The defenseman's job is to win his team the game. no one on this list could win games like Erik Karlsson.
Really? Ottawa had one good season since 2007. San Jose has not had a good season since trading for Karlsson. Sure Chicago and LA have had down seasons but they had a lot of winning seasons. I'm pretty sure most names on this list have better win% than Karlsson. I don't think that is a metric you should use.
 

Agent Zuuuub

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
14,792
12,127
Really? Ottawa had one good season since 2007. San Jose has not had a good season since trading for Karlsson. Sure Chicago and LA have had down seasons but they had a lot of winning seasons. I'm pretty sure most names on this list have better win% than Karlsson. I don't think that is a metric you should use.

Lol so much falsehood. San Jose almost won a cup in Karlssons first season and probably would have if not for injuries. Or is making it to the final four not a "good" season?

Not to mention team success is the dumbest way to judge individuals in hockey.

Was Ray Bourque bad because he couldn't win a cup until he joined the stacked avs?
 

Kent Nilsson

Imagine cringing at Brock Nelson like a moron
Jan 31, 2016
4,550
4,414
Peak Karlsson is the dman that would tip the ice in favor of his team the most since Lidstrom.

I voted Keith for career/longevity.

I have anti-recency bias so Hedman might just be the right answer.
 
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RSPens

Registered User
May 25, 2015
1,891
942
Lol so much falsehood. San Jose almost won a cup in Karlssons first season and probably would have if not for injuries. Or is making it to the final four not a "good" season?

Not to mention team success is the dumbest way to judge individuals in hockey.

Was Ray Bourque bad because he couldn't win a cup until he joined the stacked avs?
So...wait...you just contradicted yourself. Remember when you said this "The defenseman's job is to win his team the game. no one on this list could win games like Erik Karlsson"

So if team success is the dumbest way to judge an individual in hockey, then what does that make someone that uses team success to judge an individual?
 
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Agent Zuuuub

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
14,792
12,127
So...wait...you just contradicted yourself. Remember when you said this "The defenseman's job is to win his team the game. no one on this list could win games like Erik Karlsson"

So if team success is the dumbest way to judge an individual in hockey, then what does that make someone that uses team success to judge an individual?

That's the thing, what Karlssons was able to do with his teams was insane, if not impossible. Look at guy like McDavid struggling to carry his team and he has Draistal with him. Look at how much Doughty and Keith dropped as soon as their teams lost talent/depth.

A lot of those Senators teams were basement caliber yet they made the playoffs and even won rounds. It was only possible because of Karlsson and his ability to dominate the ice and make his teammates better, this ability is unrivaled by any on this list.
 
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Raccoon Jesus

Draft em but don't play em
Oct 30, 2008
62,847
64,852
I.E.
That's the thing, what Karlssons was able to do with his teams was insane, if not impossible. Look at guy like McDavid struggling to carry his team and he has Draistal with him. Look at how much Doughty and Keith dropped as soon as their teams lost talent/depth.

A lot of those Senators teams were basement caliber yet they made the playoffs and even won rounds. It was only possible because of Karlsson and his ability to dominate the ice and make his teammates better, this ability is unrivaled by any on this list.


Doughty was a Norris runner-up in two years his team was pretty crap and was playing at that level most of this year as well. Keith was awesome, Father Time finally showed up is all.

I would agree in the sense that EK as an offensive catalyst can push a team like that, but Doughty's 'play' dropping is largely a myth and based on 1.5 seasons of bad play while ignoring largely all the other evidence (pre 2012, now). He's carried a pretty mediocre d-core and sometimes lottery team to the brink of the playoffs and in most seasons. Everyone is loving on Alec Martinez lately--in the absence of Doughty vs. Vegas in 2018, our top pairing with Marty was ~30% CF, while Drew was nearly 60% for the series. look at the Kings dcore without him this year, it's laughable. He's nearly 5% CF and GF rel to his shitty team despite playing nearly half a game on a lottery team with all the hardest minutes.

I guess my point is that your perceived 'drop' in play is inaccurate and your ongoing attempts (god, how many years is this now, seriously) to paint DD as a passenger (relative to other great dmen) on great teams rather than the driver is getting yawn-worthy. I feel like I can just copypasta this response from thread to thread with you at this point.

If you can overlook bad play by Karlsson for two years, you can also forgive Drew for the same with respect to their legacies.

With respect to the contradiction mentioned above--I get what you're saying, the great dmen make their teams that much better whether they are good or bad. Every name mentioned in this thread has done so in spades in large part over their career.
 
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Buck Naked

Can't-Stand-Ya
Aug 18, 2016
3,943
6,079
I am always confused by this. I mean he put up tons of points but when it came to defense he was average at best.

Karlsson at his best had a strong case for best player in the world. I honestly don't think any of the others reached that level. Top 3-5, sure. But not #1.
 

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