Rumor: Berggren recently rejected Red Wings offer, Calgary and Montreal expressing interest - David Pagnotta

[Detroit Knights]

im just saying that buch/guentz, hanifin and markstrom are perhaps the 3 top trade targets this year. getting one of them without giving up Ed, kasper, nate, mazur, presumably cossa, augustine, asp, would require a miracle. getting all 3 of them would qualify yzerman for sainthood.

Well I don't really believe that. Hanifin and markstrom are going to be traded for a lot less than people may believe because calgary is just not in a position to squeeze other GM's. the CGY GM is in a pretty tough position, actually kind of similar to Dorion with OTT last year. He is kind of bent over a barrel at this point and it came out within the past 5 days that hanifin is not resigning and wants to be traded. Yes, more teams are in it than with dbc, however, we have much better prospects to choose from, not to mention calgary needs a defense next year (prospects OR nhl level already) so trading maatta/ghost/holl and lets say wallinder would put us pretty close to the top of the trade hierarchy for hanifin, not to mention our 1st rounder this year is probably going to be in a much better position than the others trying to trade for him (dal, bos, etc.)

not to mention fitting them all under the cap next year.

I mean, you first responded to the post where i clearly show they would fit while paying them what most people are believing they would get...I'll post it again (hanifin 7.25 [split the consensus of 7-7.5], buch 5.8, markstrom 6):

 

[cvaicunas]

Seems like the consensus is that Burger's turned down the contract offer because he is unhappy with playing in the AHL. I think we should pump the brakes on this sentiment. It could simply be a case of the money involved, wanting to go to arbitration, or some other contract negotiation tactic. I don't think it immediately suggests he does not want to play here any longer, and it would seem he has a path to the NHL roster for next season, simply based on current contracts.

 

[Konnan511]

Absolutely not. My comments are about his play and have nothing to do with his contract negotiation. Note, this is not the first time I have criticized this player in this manner. Moreover that derogatory terms is extremely descriptive of the player we are discussing and how he actually plays the game of hockey.

Just because I think it's fun, in your own words, what are the descriptive characteristics of a p***y?

 

[DoMakc]

This kid is such a p***y. He has no clue how to contribute to the play if he isn't in open ice and is completely allergic to any area of the ice prone to traffic. He isn't being held back by the organization, he is just a p***y. The quicker we can get him out of the organization the better. My money says he gets similar treatment wherever he lands.

I hate to say it to you, but the only one who can be called it is Yzerman, because he is afraid to play young players

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

To be clear, what I'm about to say is purely speculation and I'm not saying it's the case with Berggren, but it seems like Stevie also factors in a work ethic and team culture in how he treats the younger guys.

I don't mean everyone has to be a grinder, but if you work hard on your game and work to improve you're more likely to be taken care of (see: Ras, Veleno, Larkin). If he puts his faith in you and you don't put in the work, don't be looking to buy a house in the Detroit area (see: Mantha, Vrana, Athanasiou).

I know we're sick of overly ripe here in Detroit but I do think there's an element of "suck it up and put in the work kid."

 

[Detroit Knights]

Seems like the consensus is that Burger's turned down the contract offer because he is unhappy with playing in the AHL. I think we should pump the brakes on this sentiment. It could simply be a case of the money involved, wanting to go to arbitration, or some other contract negotiation tactic. I don't think it immediately suggests he does not want to play here any longer, and it would seem he has a path to the NHL roster for next season, simply based on current contracts.

Agree and disagree a little? It very well could be that yzerman was trying to get him cheap, but I do think it could also be a zadina situation, just not as ridiculous obviously, that he wants nhl time, thinks he's proven it, and if he can't be in the nhl with us then he wants it with anyone who is willing to give him the nhl ice time.

Difference between zadina and berggren is quite clear, berggren will actually be able to do something when he gets ice time. Just depends on who he does it for at this point. I strongly believe he should want to go to a middle of the road team where he could easily get top 6 minutes like in calgary or nashville maybe or washington. If he goes to a team like the sharks, montreal, or other current bottom dwellers, i just think he will be misused and possibly fail and I personally just don't want that for him.

edit: omg, just thought of berggren being on the same line as ovi feeding him the pucks on the powerplay too. jesus...he would be the next backstrom on that team lmao.

 

[Detroit Knights]

To be clear, what I'm about to say is purely speculation and I'm not saying it's the case with Berggren, but it seems like Stevie also factors in a work ethic and team culture in how he treats the younger guys.

I don't mean everyone has to be a grinder, but if you work hard on your game and work to improve you're more likely to be taken care of (see: Ras, Veleno, Larkin). If he puts his faith in you and you don't put in the work, don't be looking to buy a house in the Detroit area (see: Mantha, Vrana, Athanasiou).

I know we're sick of overly ripe here in Detroit but I do think there's an element of "suck it up and put in the work kid."

I think this is exactly why a guy like chiarot got a chance after last year. At one point in one of the interviews over the summer ( i think it was before dbc?) yzerman made a comment about how he passed chiarot in the hallway a few days before the interview working out and training and i guess this is not normal during the offseason to be in the nhl gym with the trainers training? honestly thought that was a no-go cba wise but don't have enough experience reading up on that area.

I think chiarot showed yzerman he is working hard on being a lot better than what he was last year and that is why he may have gained more favor and has been playing much better this year in what feels like a shutdown role with petry oddly enough. Maybe it was just after we traded for petry? not sure, getting confused now.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

To be clear, what I'm about to say is purely speculation and I'm not saying it's the case with Berggren, but it seems like Stevie also factors in a work ethic and team culture in how he treats the younger guys.

I don't mean everyone has to be a grinder, but if you work hard on your game and work to improve you're more likely to be taken care of (see: Ras, Veleno, Larkin). If he puts his faith in you and you don't put in the work, don't be looking to buy a house in the Detroit area (see: Mantha, Vrana, Athanasiou).

I know we're sick of overly ripe here in Detroit but I do think there's an element of "suck it up and put in the work kid."

To continue with this, and I do believe that is a lot of this as these are kids! they are trying to learn what it takes to be professionals and that just takes a while and maturity (hell, what a disaster I was when I was a 19 year old as reference). Some just get it quicker and better than others, and those are rewarded. But all of the ones who basically were sent out because of the "they are so talented, we have to keep them!" but came with big inconsistency or suspected attitude issues - Steve has shipped out quickly and without explanation. And with all of those guys he has sent out (young and talented on our roster or in our pipeline) - they have all imploded on other teams probably for the exact reason he shipped them out.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I hate to say it to you, but the only one who can be called it is Yzerman, because he is afraid to play young players

Raymond has been playing top 6 minutes since he was 19
Seider has been the #1 Dman since his rookie season at 20 years old
Ras has been in the lineup since he was 20
Veleno has been in the lineup since he was 21

It's not as simple as "he's afraid to play younger players."

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Just because I think it's fun, in your own words, what are the descriptive characteristics of a p***y?

In this context the first adjective that comes to mind is "soft."

 

[Detroit Knights]

Raymond has been playing top 6 minutes since he was 19
Seider has been the #1 Dman since his rookie season at 20 years old
Ras has been in the lineup since he was 20
Veleno has been in the lineup since he was 21

It's not as simple as "he's afraid to play younger players."

to be fair, ras and veleno were already playing there before yzerman showed up, no?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

to be fair, ras and veleno were already playing there before yzerman showed up, no?

Oh that's a good point. Ras was playing before Yzerman was there but Veleno was after Yzerman was GM.

And even then he still could've sent them back down, as we've seen with Berggren.

 

[Detroit Knights]

In this context the first adjective that comes to mind is "soft."

I really like where we are going with this.

I have been trying to figure out why, why in the hell have we gone 6 pages of this damn thread, and absolutely no one has found a way to derail it. You sir have started the revolution of this thread and @Konnan511 is the man that saw the opportunity and took it.

Honestly, this is kind of beautiful to see.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I hate to say it to you, but the only one who can be called it is Yzerman, because he is afraid to play young players

or the more likely explanation...he just isn't that good.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

Well I don't really believe that. Hanifin and markstrom are going to be traded for a lot less than people may believe because calgary is just not in a position to squeeze other GM's. the CGY GM is in a pretty tough position, actually kind of similar to Dorion with OTT last year. He is kind of bent over a barrel at this point and it came out within the past 5 days that hanifin is not resigning and wants to be traded. Yes, more teams are in it than with dbc, however, we have much better prospects to choose from, not to mention calgary needs a defense next year (prospects OR nhl level already) so trading maatta/ghost/holl and lets say wallinder would put us pretty close to the top of the trade hierarchy for hanifin, not to mention our 1st rounder this year is probably going to be in a much better position than the others trying to trade for him (dal, bos, etc.)

I mean, you first responded to the post where i clearly show they would fit while paying them what most people are believing they would get...I'll post it again (hanifin 7.25 [split the consensus of 7-7.5], buch 5.8, markstrom 6):

View attachment 824256

listen man, i dig the enthusiasm. i really, really do. and maybe that offer does get you hanifin. no one really knows except for cc. but calgary absolutely is not in a must trade situation with markstrom, nor stl with buch or dubas with guentz. getting two out of those three guys will cost a lot more than you'd be comfortable with.

and no one on this forum besides you honestly believes that raymond and seider will sign anywhere close to 6 and 7.5. not trying to be a dream killer, just keeping it real

 

[Detroit Knights]

listen man, i dig the enthusiasm. i really, really do. and maybe that offer does get you hanifin. no one really knows except for cc. but calgary absolutely is not in a must trade situation with markstrom, nor stl with buch or dubas with guentz. getting two out of those three guys will cost a lot more than you'd be comfortable with.

and no one on this forum besides you honestly believes that raymond and seider will sign anywhere close to 6 and 7.5. not trying to be a dream killer, just keeping it real

View attachment 824287

it's fine, we have cleveland to fall back on next year. At that point, we may just be sayin "hanifin who?"

 

[Konnan511]

In this context the first adjective that comes to mind is "soft."

Hmmm, not the first word I'd use, but good for you. I don't see him as an overly soft player, but that's just my opinion. What makes him soft in your eyes? I've seen him battle against the boards and cut to the middle. He doesn't fight, I guess that would make him a little soft. He doesn't throw massive hits, so i guess that does make him a little soft. So I guess 50% of our team is soft?

 

[RRhoads]

View attachment 824256

Yeah, we are not going to have a 20-man roster next season, and I think those players signed will all cost more.

 

[Hen Kolland]

or the more likely explanation...he just isn't that good.

This does have an eerily similar feeling to it as the Zadina saga as it came to an end. Guy thinks he deserves more of a shot than he gets, looks for a fresh start or respect or whatever he really wants, will get it, and the new team will experience the warts and not much will change in the player's game. By average TOI, Zadina (playing for a terrible Sharks team) is playing under 13 minutes a night. That would put him in the same ballpark as Sprong this year for the Wings. His point output (17) would be 15th best on the Wings, his goal output (7) would have him tied for 13th with Gostisbehere and Seider.

Zadina bet on himself, went to the only team who would give him a chance, has failed and likely ended his NHL career, not because he wasn't given a chance, but because of his warts of a player.
Vrana was given a fresh start in Detroit, wasted it. Was given a second fresh start in St. Louis, wasted it.
Mantha was given a fresh start in Washington, clearly never earned the trust of the coaching staff (though has been weirdly efficient in low usage this year).
Athanasiou has been the same player for 4 different teams now (has never been as good as he was in Detroit).

The fact of the matter is, Yzerman chose to add DeBrincat, Kane, Compher, Fischer, Sprong despite Berggren's supposed ability. 4 of the 5 are regulars on the powerplay. 3 of the 5 are regulars on the top two lines. These are the spots that Berggren "supposedly" is made to thrive in and can elevate because he has "elite" vision and playmaking ability.

Berggren's best case scenario as I see it is being a generic brand Gus Nyquist. Nyquist's track record in the AHL was over 120 games in duration at over a point per game rate. Berggren is around 110 games in at a combined rate just under a point per game. Nyquist made his first real stint at 24 and played really well, but as a regular with aging Hank and Pav, he settled in as like a 50 point guy. Berggren came out with his first real stint at 22 with a pace for 35 points. Largely powered by a really hot start...his first 25 games he scored at a 46 point pace over 82, the remaining 42 games was a a 27 point pace over 82 games.

And if the best you can give me is bargain brand early career Nyquist, you aren't playing in the top 6, you are at best a bottom 6 player. And Lalonde clearly has a type he likes deploying in those bottom lines. Berggren can't put the puck in the net like Sprong or Fabbri, he doesn't compete as hard as Veleno or Fischer, and he can't matchup as well as Rasmussen or Copp. Not to mention there's already more bodies than spots on the PP and anyone he might replace would take away from the PK.

He needs to go to an offense starved team, he might carve out a career as a very good player, but I would be absolutely shocked if an NHL team he plays a top 6 role for ever wins anything of substance. He just is far too niche of a player at this point. Not to mention all of his supporters sound like MBH gushing over Athanasiou's per 60 metrics. At least Athanasiou was doing something in the NHL when MBH decided he was the equivalent of Gretzky's offspring.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Hmmm, not the first word I'd use, but good for you. I don't see him as an overly soft player, but that's just my opinion. What makes him soft in your eyes? I've seen him battle against the boards and cut to the middle. He doesn't fight, I guess that would make him a little soft. He doesn't throw massive hits, so i guess that does make him a little soft. So I guess 50% of our team is soft?

The kid lives on the outside. When have you ever seen him cut to the middle of the ice with the puck and when have you ever seen him battle for position in the low slot. He doesn't even try to establish inside positioning. He literally just floats behind defenders on the weak side to nowhere. He is far from a willing combatant in puck battles along the wall and in the corners. When he reluctantly does engage in puck battles, he already has one foot out the door. Just watch how often he engages from below the puck. It hardly yields a meaningful contribution. I can't think of anything he does well without the puck if I am being frank. He certainly won't contest a puck carrier. He is just a wallflower without it. Now if you like a guy who can transport a puck two zones and then skate around the outside with the puck, he is probably your cup of tea. That doesn't put wind in my sails personally.

I get it though. He is a Hakan special, right? People just really want him to work out and thinking about his warts calls into question whether that will actually happen.

 

[jaster]

Hmmm, not the first word I'd use, but good for you. I don't see him as an overly soft player, but that's just my opinion. What makes him soft in your eyes? I've seen him battle against the boards and cut to the middle. He doesn't fight, I guess that would make him a little soft. He doesn't throw massive hits, so i guess that does make him a little soft. So I guess 50% of our team is soft?

Berggren is soft because he doesn't consistently win puck or board battles, or even consistently engage in them. He's weak in that way. He's not hard to play against. No opposing player has to worry about Berggren outmuscling them for a puck. They don't have to worry when they go into the corner with Jonatan Berggren. He doesn't have a consistently high compete when he's off the puck.

This deficiency alone does not disqualify Berggren from being a valuable player, there are NHL players with the same deficiency, but it works against him, and it dictates he has to be that much better in other facets to mitigate it.

 

[jaster]

The kid lives on the outside. When have you ever seen him cut to the middle of the ice with the puck and when have you ever seen him battle for position in the low slot. He doesn't even try to establish inside positioning. He literally just floats behind defenders on the weak side to nowhere. He is far from a willing combatant in puck battles along the wall and in the corners. When he reluctantly does engage in puck battles, he already has one foot out the door. Just watch how often he engages from below the puck. It hardly yields a meaningful contribution. I can't think of anything he does well without the puck if I am being frank. He certainly won't contest a puck carrier. He is just a wallflower without it. Now if you like a guy who can transport a puck two zones and then skate around the outside with the puck, he is probably your cup of tea. That doesn't put wind in my sails personally.

I get it though. He is a Hakan special, right? People just really want him to work out and thinking about his warts calls into question whether that will actually happen.

The average fan doesn't appreciate how important off-puck play is. And they often undervalue how important puck battles are. For those who have played competitive hockey, it is known how important those things are to a successful team.

They're also things that young players absolutely can learn. But not all do.

 

[Gniwder]

The average fan doesn't appreciate how important off-puck play is. And they often undervalue how important puck battles are. For those who have played competitive hockey, it is known how important those things are to a successful team.

They're also things that young players absolutely can learn. But not all do.

There was definite improvement in his last call up in that particular area, along with his defensive commitment. He actually won a few puck battles along the board (to my surprise), and he was much better positionally in the defensive zone. However, he did not engage defensively or anticipate passing lanes. He was just .... kinda there.

Much like Sprong, I think he needs to hear the same thing from different coaches. A change of scenery will be the best thing for his career. The best case scenario is a hockey trade for another prospect with similar potential. No draft picks, we don't need to pick more Clevelands with second rounders.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

The average fan doesn't appreciate how important off-puck play is. And they often undervalue how important puck battles are. For those who have played competitive hockey, it is known how important those things are to a successful team.

They're also things that young players absolutely can learn. But not all do.

When the Wings don't have the puck, he does very little to help them regain possession. There is a certain requisite contribution you need to be willing to make in that regard to stick in the NHL. Those who get a pass on this tend to be very elite but dependent goal scorers. Puck pursuit is always important. JB needs to be better in that regard even though he has some very nice offensive tools.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

There was definite improvement in his last call up in that particular area, along with his defensive commitment. He actually won a few puck battles along the board (to my surprise), and he was much better positionally in the defensive zone. However, he did not engage defensively or anticipate passing lanes. He was just .... kinda there.

Much like Sprong, I think he needs to hear the same thing from different coaches. A change of scenery will be the best thing for his career. The best case scenario is a hockey trade for another prospect with similar potential. No draft picks, we don't need to pick more Clevelands with second rounders.

i agree. wouldn't be fair to the other teams in the league