Proposal: Barzal - James van Riemsdyk

[garyturner3]

It's funny how you first respond to my generalization that Leaf fans constantly hype their own players/prospects while crapping on the other team's players/prospects by saying it only represents extreme Leaf fans, not rational ones like you.

Then a few sentences later you're telling me every player we've had since 2000 except Tavares and Okposo are utter garbage.

Utter garbage? Ummm...where did I say that? There's a big difference in a player reaching his initial potential compared to being garbage or a bust. Schenn, Tlusty, Niederreiter are perfect examples of that. They've had decent careers thus far and are far from busts, but obviously didn't make it to the level once hoped.

 

[Evil Little]

Barzal has been more hyped than MDC ever since he was drafted, thank you for showing you are oblivious to Isles prospects.

Clarkson had one year of 46 pts (having Kovy shovel him goals). His 2nd best season was 32. He has never gotten votes for any major award. Ladd has met or exceeded 46 pts every single season since 2010 (when he left the Hawks). He regularly receives Selke votes.

I don't love the Ladd signing, but this level of blatant ignorance and flaming is sad, especially from a Leafs fan lolololol

That 46 points was in the 48 game lockout-shortened season.

 

[Randy Randerson]

That 46 points was in the 48 game lockout-shortened season.

no that was a full season, had 24 in the lockout season: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=62180

he had 30 goals in that 46 pt season, which I think is much more impressive, but he score almost all of those from within 10 feet in scrums/rebounds/screen tips etc

Ladd>>Clarkson for sure, drawing that comparison isn't fair. Ladd's been consistent in his production and has done it without the benefit of playing with elite point producers (outside of after the TDL). He's lead his team in scoring a bunch of times. He might decline if physical play catches up, but he's a good player

 

[One Winged Angel]

Isles believe Barzal will be an elite player. At the very least a #2center. We need that behind Tavares.

Wait what????

If they believe he's an elite player, that means a sure-fire #1 center, can't miss kind of player.

At least a #2 center? That makes zero sense.

Gotta pick a story and stick to it here, because you're saying two different things that contradict each other.

 

[CamelToews]

Nylander>>>>>Barzel

Nylander will be our elite 2c

Way too early to decide which prospect is better at this point.

 

[CodeE]

wow, very defensive.

trying a little too hard on the chicken and egg analogy

The leafs have been a terribly managed team, and a terrible drafting team for a very long time - I'll admit that freely. And yes, every prospect we have might not pan out, but everyone seems to like our farm system right now which is a very good start - remember like 3-4 years ago when the Isles were in that position?

Lol @ "perennial playoff contender" - you've made it for 2 years after being bad for a long time, you're about to become a contender which is the time teams gear up to contend - the time prospects usually get dealt for currently contributing players. That's fine if you don't like the deal, just not sure why you have to spit poison at an entire fanbase in the process

- Leaf fan says the Islanders haven't had any good players except Okposo and Tavares since 2000, just giving an objective assessment.

- Isles fan doesn't agree that the Leafs have the best prospects who will all certainly hit their high ceilings, it's "spitting poison".

The only point I'm trying to prove is that teams don't like trading top prospects for another team's vets. Year after year, Leaf fans insist on arguing that because our prospects are sooooo much better than yours, this isn't true. You don't want to give up your prospects for vets, but other teams should want to give up their prospects for your vets.

It can't be as easy as "teams with bluechip prospects tend to not want to trade them unless they get an offer they can't turn down", can it? No, because you need countless justifications why the Islanders would be absolute fools not to move Pulock, Barzal, etc to Toronto for whatever price you feel like paying today.

 

[SLAPSHOT723]

Wait what????

If they believe he's an elite player, that means a sure-fire #1 center, can't miss kind of player.

At least a #2 center? That makes zero sense.

Gotta pick a story and stick to it here, because you're saying two different things that contradict each other.

He's saying ceiling is elite, floor is 2nd line center. They believe he can be a an elite player, but at the very least a 2C.

 

[garyturner3]

- Leaf fan says the Islanders haven't had any good players except Okposo and Tavares since 2000, just giving an objective assessment.

- Isles fan doesn't agree that the Leafs have the best prospects who will all certainly hit their high ceilings, it's "spitting poison".

The only point I'm trying to prove is that teams don't like trading top prospects for another team's vets. Year after year, Leaf fans insist on arguing that because our prospects are sooooo much better than yours, this isn't true. You don't want to give up your prospects for vets, but other teams should want to give up their prospects for your vets.

It can't be as easy as "teams with bluechip prospects tend to not want to trade them unless they get an offer they can't turn down", can it? No, because you need countless justifications why the Islanders would be absolute fools not to move Pulock, Barzal, etc to Toronto for whatever price you feel like paying today.

You're drastically twisting what was said to suit your argument again. Since you clearly didn't read my last response, I'll repeat it for you. Nobody's saying they haven't had any good players. I said the only picks that reached their initial potential ceiling since 2000 are Tavares and Okposo. You're going to debate that? I'm curious to know which other player(s) you'd include in that list. It's not like it's out of the ordinary; that's pretty standard. The vast majority of prospects don't reach their potential. The problem is you're just using the fact that Schenn, Tlusty, Percy, etc. didn't reach that potential to generalize an entire fanbase and insinuate that all Leaf fans thought they were all locks for all stars.

 

[Randy Randerson]

- Leaf fan says the Islanders haven't had any good players except Okposo and Tavares since 2000, just giving an objective assessment.

- Isles fan doesn't agree that the Leafs have the best prospects who will all certainly hit their high ceilings, it's "spitting poison".

The only point I'm trying to prove is that teams don't like trading top prospects for another team's vets. Year after year, Leaf fans insist on arguing that because our prospects are sooooo much better than yours, this isn't true.

You don't want to give up your prospects for vets, but other teams should want to give up their prospects for your vets. It can't be as easy as "teams with bluechip prospects tend to not want to trade them unless they get an offer they can't turn down", can it? No, because you need countless justifications why the Islanders would be absolute fools not to move Pulock, Barzal, etc to Toronto for whatever price you feel like paying today.

literally didn't say any of that:

speaking on 1st rounders in isolation (as has been the case since that narrative was raised) Tavares and Okposo lived up to expectations, great picks. Bailey, De Haan, Nelson are fine for their draft spots but didn't blow the doors off. Nino, Reinhart are disappointments. Strome hasn't lived up to the hype yet, Dal Colle hasn't produced as hoped since draft day, Pulock/Beauvillier/Barzal look like good picks right now and time will tell

The questions of who "has the best prospects" was not the subject of this conversation. The subject of who is considered the best/has the most value of Marner, Barzal and maybe Nylander was - and please let me know if you can find an unbiased source that has Barzal above either of the leafs 2. I'm not defensive about it, that's just objectively true in the eyes of the whole hockey world (unless you can show me otherwise, if so please do)

Trading prospects for vets is the most common type of trade for impact players in the cap system - a team that's ready trades its prospects to put themselves over the top, a team that's rebuilding sells its good veterans for more prospects/picks. This is why the media talks about how "hockey trades" are rare now - remember when the Hall/Larsson and PK/Weber deals happened and the whole hockey media world was like "wow, this never happens!"? Ladd to the Blackhawks at last year's TDL is a good example

What a team is willing to give up and what they target is a product of where they see themselves in the cycle of rebuild-contend-rebuild-contend. If you're ready, you sell futures for now, if you're rebuilding you sell vets for futures

I think (and I believe the basis of this thread is) that the Islanders are ready to be a contender, so now is the time to add players in their prime. The Leafs are still rebuilding, so we can stand to add more futures at the expense of a 27 year old top 6 winger who usually paces 55-60pts. To me, the Isles and Leafs look like pretty good trade partners based on them being in very different stages of the cycle and both having assets that are desirable for the other side

Not sure why you feel the need to twist what the other side is saying and straw man the hell out of this thread - comes across as really insecure

 

[CodeE]

literally didn't say any of that:

speaking on 1st rounders in isolation (as has been the case since that narrative was raised) Tavares and Okposo lived up to expectations, great picks. Bailey, De Haan, Nelson are fine for their draft spots but didn't blow the doors off. Nino, Reinhart are disappointments. Strome hasn't lived up to the hype yet, Dal Colle hasn't produced as hoped since draft day, Pulock/Beauvillier/Barzal look like good picks right now and time will tell

The questions of who "has the best prospects" was not the subject of this conversation. The subject of who is considered the best/has the most value of Marner, Barzal and maybe Nylander was - and please let me know if you can find an unbiased source that has Barzal above either of the leafs 2. I'm not defensive about it, that's just objectively true in the eyes of the whole hockey world (unless you can show me otherwise, if so please do)

Trading prospects for vets is the most common type of trade for impact players in the cap system - a team that's ready trades its prospects to put themselves over the top, a team that's rebuilding sells its good veterans for more prospects/picks. This is why the media talks about how "hockey trades" are rare now - remember when the Hall/Larsson and PK/Weber deals happened and the whole hockey media world was like "wow, this never happens!"? Ladd to the Blackhawks at last year's TDL is a good example

What a team is willing to give up and what they target is a product of where they see themselves in the cycle of rebuild-contend-rebuild-contend. If you're ready, you sell futures for now, if you're rebuilding you sell vets for futures

I think (and I believe the basis of this thread is) that the Islanders are ready to be a contender, so now is the time to add players in their prime. The Leafs are still rebuilding, so we can stand to add more futures at the expense of a 27 year old top 6 winger who usually paces 55-60pts

Not sure why you feel the need to twist what the other side is saying and straw man the hell out of this thread - comes across as really insecure

So now you're arguing that the Islanders are bad (at best mediocre), and have only one decent player (a 1st overall pick) over the past 16 years currently on the team.

But also the Islanders are good, good enough to trade bluechip prospects away for veterans. Specifically, a veteran who last year lead the Maple Leafs to the worst record in the NHL. He's the answer to our problems.

 

[Randy Randerson]

So now you're arguing that the Islanders are bad (at best mediocre), and have only one decent player (a 1st overall pick) over the past 16 years currently on the team.

But also the Islanders are good, good enough to trade bluechip prospects away for veterans. Specifically, a veteran who last year lead the Maple Leafs to the worst record in the NHL. He's the answer to our problems.

literally said the opposite of that. You're awesome man, keep on keepin on

YOUR 1ST ROUND DRAFTING HASN'T BEEN STELLAR, YOU HAVE LOTS OF GOOD PLAYERS WHO YOU DIDN'T DRAFT IN THE 1ST ROUND (Please read the sentence in caps) - that was the extent of that narrative for everyone here except for you

JVR was hurt for half of last year, and if you're saying that a player is only as good as the position that his team finishes...then I guess Connor McDavid, Jack Eichel, Oliver Ekman-Larsson and Johnny Gaudreau are awful? great logic

 

[Menzinger]

Way too early to decide which prospect is better at this point.

True.

But Nylander does have the better hockey CV at this point

 

[CamelToews]

True.

But Nylander does have the better hockey CV at this point

He does but I hate to argue whose better when neither have played a full year in the NHL.

 

[Byrddog]

maybe on HF but his value around the league surely hasn't. His production has maintained even after Kessel was dealt (many around here thought it would nose dive) JVR is still a valuable piece. That being said, I don't think Islander or Leafs do a deal like this.

Hey I like JVR but he has been a terrible situation in Toronto. I think he could have been a 60 point plus guy year over year but he is 27 now he has reached his upside. Barzal looks to be a 1C in a couple years. Not something that the Leafs need at this point and not something the Islanders would give up for a guy that will be in decline before too long.

 

[showtime8]

Not happening. The JVR door closed when the Islanders signed Ladd. Yes I know JVR is better but we can't have both.

What if the Leafs were to retain a bit of coin?

Barzal is going to be in his ELC and the Leafs have the ability to move contracts around. I believe they still have Lupul and Robidas on the books. Both can be moved to LTIR. Again, not 100%, but something can be done.

 

[SLAPSHOT723]

What if the Leafs were to retain a bit of coin?

Barzal is going to be in his ELC and the Leafs have the ability to move contracts around. I believe they still have Lupul and Robidas on the books. Both can be moved to LTIR. Again, not 100%, but something can be done.

There's no need on the roster for JVR anymore.

 

[Willy Styles]

wow some ignorant posters in here lolll

Leafs don't need Barzal, and in a vacuum Barzal probably has slightly more value than JVR.

Islanders and Leafs are literally two of the worst drafting teams in the NHL. Leafs look like there beggning to turn it around, and Islanders have turned it around. Does that mean every player they've drafted thus far is garbage no? It just means that ALOT of players drafted by both teams have not lived up to their respective expectations.

 

[showtime8]

There's no need on the roster for JVR anymore.

I didn't bother reading this entire thread, but did you explain it in there?

I would think that he would help out the top 6 or even top 9 if that's what they wanted.

 

[SLAPSHOT723]

I didn't bother reading this entire thread, but did you explain it in there?

I would think that he would help out the top 6 or even top 9 if that's what they wanted.

Yes.

With Ladd signed and playing with Tavares, JVR isn't really needed. We also have a serious abundance of LW's, we need a natural RW. JVR would also cost a lot, we should use our trade assets on positions of need, as good as JVR is.

 

[showtime8]

Yes.

With Ladd signed and playing with Tavares, JVR isn't really needed. We also have a serious abundance of LW's, we need a natural RW. JVR would also cost a lot, we should use our trade assets on positions of need, as good as JVR is.

Fair enough. I respect that opinion.

 

[One Winged Angel]

He's saying ceiling is elite, floor is 2nd line center. They believe he can be a an elite player, but at the very least a 2C.

I disagree with that, if someone's ceiling is elite, the worst their ceiling is a legit 1st liner and I don't see elite potential with Barzal. I see a very good player, but elite?

I don't buy it.

 

[blinkman360]

I disagree with that, if someone's ceiling is elite, the worst their ceiling is a legit 1st liner and I don't see elite potential with Barzal. I see a very good player, but elite?

I don't buy it.

uhhh...what? A player's ceiling has nothing to do with his floor. If your upside algorithm were legit, guys like Patrick Stefan and Nikita Filatov would have made a whole lot of money.

EDIT: just realized you're a Rangers fan. No offense to you, maybe you actually have seen Barzal play and/or know enough about him to justify your claim, but I have enough Ranger fan friends who minimize anything Islanders-related enough to know that I should take their Isles opinions with a grain of salt.

 

[LordNeverLose]

Lololol? Mmmkay

Barzal sunk like a stone in his draft because reality = / = internet hype, yes Barzal is more of an internet darling that Dal Colle but fact remains one is a top five blue chip and the other is a mid first long shot.

Obscuring Clarkson and Ladd? Neither have ever been solid point producers, their value is goal scoring, both in the long term will prove to be busted 30 goal hopefuls.

Wow, a selke vote? Hang your hat on that mic drop.... I love what people say on HFboards.

JVR remains better than all of them (Barzal included) but he's not good enough for NYI though he doesn't get Selke votes I suppose.

If you seriously think MDC > Barzal you're delusional. I'd happily trade MDC for JVR. In a heartbeat.

What qualifies as a solid point producer? Cause Ladd has outproduced JVR their whole careers...

Receiving multiple Selke votes multiple years shows he's a good defensive player, not sure what's tough to understand there

The Clarkson comparison was sad, and it combined with your commments about JVR and Barzal lead me to question a lot about your posts.

 

[LordNeverLose]

no that was a full season, had 24 in the lockout season: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=62180

he had 30 goals in that 46 pt season, which I think is much more impressive, but he score almost all of those from within 10 feet in scrums/rebounds/screen tips etc

Ladd>>Clarkson for sure, drawing that comparison isn't fair. Ladd's been consistent in his production and has done it without the benefit of playing with elite point producers (outside of after the TDL). He's lead his team in scoring a bunch of times. He might decline if physical play catches up, but he's a good player

He was referring to Ladd, although that isn't 100% true as Ladd has been "held" to 46 pts twice, only once was it in the 48 game lockout year.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I would trade JVR for Barzal easily right now.

Yes, the Leafs do need a RHD a lot but you can't pass up Barzal. The guy should've been picked right after the Marner/Strome/Hanifin group in the Werenski/Provorov group but whatever.

From what I've heard, he can play RW too. Can he play LW as well?
Next year:

Hymen - Matthews - Nylander
Barzal - Kadri - Marner
Kapanen - Bozak - Timashov/Brown
Komarov - Gauthier/Griffith - Bracco/Johnson/Brown/Timashov