Proposal: Barzal - James van Riemsdyk

[LeapOnOver]

Barzal does not need to be protected for expansion
Jvr does .
That's my reason .
There are other factors besides talent and potential these days

Came to say this...

 

[Warden of the North]

No. If we're dealing JvR its for a dman. Hes our main piece to dangle.

 

[Warden of the North]

Late to the party but this doesn't appear to be a need for either team. That, and Barzal is just too important to move - at least assuming we're not talking about a package for some kind of superstar forward.

The lack of secondary scoring and specifically the lack of a dangerous 2nd line is something that has frustrated Isles fans for quite some time. Barzal appears to be the guy who will fix that. Every time I see him play I gain more confidence in him becoming everything he's been hyped to become since draft day.

I mean, I dont want to make this trade either, but JvR immediately solves your lack of secondary scoring problem. Its not like youre giving away Barzal for nothing

 

[ToneBone03]

No. If we're dealing JvR its for a dman. Hes our main piece to dangle.

This. We actually have great C depth (feels so good to say that, lol).

If JVR is traded it's for D.

 

[blinkman360]

I mean, I dont want to make this trade either, but JvR immediately solves your lack of secondary scoring problem. Its not like youre giving away Barzal for nothing

I'm sorry, but this would be terrible asset management. Just awful.

Like I said, no offense to JVR, he's a good player, but that trade makes zero sense for the Islanders. Barzal's value to the franchise and the lack of 2C options behind him make it bad enough for us, but the fact that we're loaded with LW talent throughout the system makes it even worse. Nelson, Lee, MDC, Bellows, and perhaps even Beauvillier. I think I'll take my chances that one of them will develop into a guy with JVR-caliber production.

 

[SLAPSHOT723]

Strome top five pick, Dal Colle top five pick, both more hyped than Barzal

Love how NYI fans laugh off JVR but their GM signed Clarkson 2.0 in Ladd....

Ladd is Clarkson 2.0?

Give me a ****ing break.

 

[garyturner3]

Having seen both first hand, you don't know what you're talking about. Marner is better, but there isn't a tier between them.

Barzal's a great prospect, but yes there absolutely is a tier between them and every single prospect ranking list out there you can find will echo that. Judging by your username, you might just be a little biased on this

 

[LondonKendrick]

Barzal has been more hyped than MDC ever since he was drafted, thank you for showing you are oblivious to Isles prospects.

Clarkson had one year of 46 pts (having Kovy shovel him goals). His 2nd best season was 32. He has never gotten votes for any major award. Ladd has met or exceeded 46 pts every single season since 2010 (when he left the Hawks). He regularly receives Selke votes.

I don't love the Ladd signing, but this level of blatant ignorance and flaming is sad, especially from a Leafs fan lolololol

Lololol? Mmmkay

Barzal sunk like a stone in his draft because reality = / = internet hype, yes Barzal is more of an internet darling that Dal Colle but fact remains one is a top five blue chip and the other is a mid first long shot.

Obscuring Clarkson and Ladd? Neither have ever been solid point producers, their value is goal scoring, both in the long term will prove to be busted 30 goal hopefuls.

Wow, a selke vote? Hang your hat on that mic drop.... I love what people say on HFboards.

JVR remains better than all of them (Barzal included) but he's not good enough for NYI though he doesn't get Selke votes I suppose.

 

[Curufinwe]

Lololol? Mmmkay

Barzal sunk like a stone in his draft because reality = / = internet hype, yes Barzal is more of an internet darling that Dal Colle but fact remains one is a top five blue chip and the other is a mid first long shot.

Draft position does not solely determine a prospect's worth, especially not years after the draft.

 

[CodeE]

5. Leaf fan: "Well obviously our prospects are much, much, much better than yours so the situations aren't remotely comparable"

I forgot to mention that once we reach step #5, the entire thread becomes other Leaf fans reiterating that their prospects are much, much, much better than your prospects.

There is no way to go back, the only discussion now is how Tlusty, Schenn , Kadri, Biggs, Percy, Reilly, Gauthier, Nylander, Marner is worth more than everyone on your team put together.

 

[Finnish your Czech]

I'd move JVR for barzal despite the fact that barzal fills no need for the leafs

 

[Randy Randerson]

I forgot to mention that once we reach step #5, the entire thread becomes other Leaf fans reiterating that their prospects are much, much, much better than your prospects.

There is no way to go back, the only discussion now is how Tlusty, Schenn , Kadri, Biggs, Percy, Reilly, Gauthier, Nylander, Marner is worth more than everyone on your team put together.

Lol. you shouldn't take broad stroke shots at an entire fanbase and expect to be thought of as being objective.

The bolded names, very few if any leaf fans thought of as being hype-able prospects - they were safe, low-ceiling types and that was well known. Tlusty and Schenn were also not world beaters and most of the fanbase on here weren't seeing it that way - Schenn we hoped would be a minute eating physical type reminiscent of Adam Foote, not a Norris type. Kadri was exciting and has turned into a reasonably good NHL'er by his draft position. So then you're down to Rielly (who is a top pairing guy with #1 upside and getting lots of use that way on a bad NHL team and in international competition), Nylander (who was among the best ever at his age in 2 pro leagues in the last 2 years, and has been excellent in his 23 NHL games) and Marner (who is ranked up to #3 as a prospect in the entire NHL, and not lower than 7-8, had a higher NHLe than Nylander last year)...the last 3 seem pretty reasonable to pump tires on

Marner and Nylander are universally ranked higher than Barzal in non-biased prospect rankings (they're almost unanimously top 10, Barzal commonly in the mid 20's). I'm a big Barzal fan, but the hockey world doesn't see him on the same level as Marner and Nylander. Take the leaf factor out of it - do you think Barzal is on the same level as Connor, Puljujarvi, Strome?

FWIW, I would trade JVR for Barzal if it was on the table, even if it's not addressing an obvious need for the leafs

 

[LeafGrief]

Lol. you shouldn't take broad stroke shots at an entire fanbase and expect to be thought of as being objective.

The bolded names, very few if any leaf fans thought of as being hype-able prospects - they were safe, low-ceiling types and that was well known.

Marner and Nylander are universally ranked higher than Barzal in non-biased prospect rankings (they're almost unanimously top 10, Barzal commonly in the mid 20's). I'm a big Barzal fan, but the hockey world doesn't see him on the same level as Marner and Nylander. Take the leaf factor out of it - do you think Barzal is on the same level as Connor, Puljujarvi, Strome?

FWIW, I would trade JVR for Barzal if it was on the table, even if it's not addressing an obvious need for the leafs

Percy got pretty hyped tbh. He was a good prospect before injuries slowed down his development curve.

Barzal is a great prospect that I would love to have on the Leafs. But realistically, why would we trade our best trade chip for him? Sure it's good value but we open up a hole on LW just to have a 3rd high end center prospect. We'd probably end up trading Barzal a bit later. If we're trading JVR, we need a D coming back.

 

[Alexander Edler]

If this would go through would it be Nylander for Tanev maybe a add on Toronto side?

 

[Randy Randerson]

Percy got pretty hyped tbh. He was a good prospect before injuries slowed down his development curve.

Barzal is a great prospect that I would love to have on the Leafs. But realistically, why would we trade our best trade chip for him? Sure it's good value but we open up a hole on LW just to have a 3rd high end center prospect. We'd probably end up trading Barzal a bit later. If we're trading JVR, we need a D coming back.

Percy got a bit of hype after a very good stint in the NHL, that was like 2 and a half years after his draft though. He never got hype to the level of "Percy is among the best defence prospects in the league" as was insinuated in the post I replied to

Objectively I agree that JVR should be used to get a defenseman, but I like Barzal as a prospect so I would do the deal because I like the player in particular. I think we also need to give Zaitsev and Carrick some time before we look to acquire a defenseman, want to know what we have before figuring out what we need

 

[garyturner3]

I forgot to mention that once we reach step #5, the entire thread becomes other Leaf fans reiterating that their prospects are much, much, much better than your prospects.

There is no way to go back, the only discussion now is how Tlusty, Schenn , Kadri, Biggs, Percy, Reilly, Gauthier, Nylander, Marner is worth more than everyone on your team put together.

Come on man, do yourself a favor and ignore the extreme posts at both ends and you'll find it easier to avoid generalizing an entire fanbase like this. The extremes are obviously much higher in numbers when dealing with a large fanbase like the Leafs, but that doesn't make them anymore in tune with what "Leaf fans" think. And by the way, you have access to hockeydb just like the rest of us. Take a look at your 1st round picks dating all the way back to 2000 and tell me how many of them have reached the potential that you initially hoped for. Okposo and Tavares I imagine, that's it. You've got four top-5 picks in the last seven years, none of which at this point project to look anything remotely close to what you'd hope a top 5 pick to be. Your list of what you think are busts on the Leafs side is par for the course for every franchise.

 

[CodeE]

Come on man, do yourself a favor and ignore the extreme posts at both ends and you'll find it easier to avoid generalizing an entire fanbase like this. The extremes are obviously much higher in numbers when dealing with a large fanbase like the Leafs, but that doesn't make them anymore in tune with what "Leaf fans" think. And by the way, you have access to hockeydb just like the rest of us. Take a look at your 1st round picks dating all the way back to 2000 and tell me how many of them have reached the potential that you initially hoped for. Okposo and Tavares I imagine, that's it. You've got four top-5 picks in the last seven years, none of which at this point project to look anything remotely close to what you'd hope a top 5 pick to be. Your list of what you think are busts on the Leafs side is par for the course for every franchise.

It's funny how you first respond to my generalization that Leaf fans constantly hype their own players/prospects while crapping on the other team's players/prospects by saying it only represents extreme Leaf fans, not rational ones like you.

Then a few sentences later you're telling me every player we've had since 2000 except Tavares and Okposo are utter garbage.

 

[Randy Randerson]

It's funny how you first respond to my generalization that Leaf fans constantly hype their own players/prospects while crapping on the other team's players/prospects by saying it only represents extreme Leaf fans, not rational ones like you.

Then a few sentences later you're telling me every player we've had since 2000 except Tavares and Okposo are utter garbage.

Point still stands that you're trashing an entire fanbase on the opinions of its extremists, and trying to paint "Marner>Barzal" as an extremist opinion where that's the objective opinion of the non-biased hockey writer community

He didn't say "utter garbage", he said didn't live up to expectations.

Do you disagree that NYI 1st rounders have been disappointing outside of Tavares and Okposo? Bailey and Nelson are fine from their draft positions, good NHL'ers but not game breakers. De Haan is probably in that same category. Nino and Reinhart were disappointments as top 5 picks, Strome hasn't done anything yet, Dal Colle and HoSang haven't improved their stock much - acknowledging that its probably too soon to cast judgement on anyone drafted after 2013. Pulock, Barzal and Beauvillier look good at this point, but none are setting records either

as an Isles fan, are you over the moon about your 1st round drafting in the last 15 years?

 

[CodeE]

Point still stands that you're trashing an entire fanbase on the opinions of its extremists, and trying to paint "Marner>Barzal" as an extremist opinion where that's the objective opinion of the non-biased hockey writer community

He didn't say "utter garbage", he said didn't live up to expectations.

Do you disagree that NYI 1st rounders have been disappointing outside of Tavares and Okposo? Bailey and Nelson are fine from their draft positions, good NHL'ers but not game breakers. De Haan is probably in that same category. Nino and Reinhart were disappointments as top 5 picks, Strome hasn't done anything yet, Dal Colle and HoSang haven't improved their stock much - acknowledging that its probably too soon to cast judgement on anyone drafted after 2013. Pulock, Barzal and Beauvillier look good at this point, but none are setting records either

as an Isles fan, are you over the moon about your 1st round drafting in the last 15 years?

Cool, another post saying how I shouldn't judge all Leaf fans by the extremists who say how awful Islanders players and prospects are, immediately followed by a paragraph about how awful Islanders players and prospects are.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

Don't see the incentive for either team. Isles can't trade their best prospect and Leafs don't really need another playmaking C.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Cool, another post saying how I shouldn't judge all Leaf fans by the extremists who say how awful Islanders players and prospects are, immediately followed by a paragraph about how awful Islanders players and prospects are.

nice straw man. Nope, just an objective assessment of where I see your first round drafting, never said anything close to "awful". I like some Isles prospects, including Barzal, but if you want to see any review of your team that isn't glowing as being a damning condemnation then I guess you do you. And if you want to see Barzal as being on the top tier of prospects in hockey, that's great but its not realistic

 

[Lundy HOF]

Who would you rather have, Marner or JVR? Yeah, I thought so. Same dynamic concerning Barzal for the Isles.

This is entirely dependent on your short term goals. I assume the Isles will look to compete like for real sooner rather than later. JvR would change the entire dynamic or team that had Jason Chimera in its top 6...

 

[CodeE]

nice straw man. Nope, just an objective assessment of where I see your first round drafting, never said anything close to "awful". I like some Isles prospects, including Barzal, but if you want to see any review of your team that isn't glowing as being a damning condemnation then I guess you do you. And if you want to see Barzal as being on the top tier of prospects in hockey, that's great but its not realistic

Ah, the old "I'm not crapping on your team, I'm just giving an objective assessment of how bad your team is" excuse.

The Leafs were the worst team in the NHL last year. The Islanders finished with 100 points and made it to the second round. But hey, I guess the Islanders have failed at drafting and developing their players and have nobody good to show for it except Tavares, who - let me guess - is counting down the minutes til he can sign with Toronto.

You ever hear of the expression "don't count your chickens before they hatch"? Too many Leaf fans, for years and years and years now, get angry and frustrated when you don't agree with their assessment that the Leafs have the best eggs who will undoubtedly all grow into only the best and strongest chickens. Oh, and you also have to agree with their assessment that your team's eggs are rotten and barely salvageable. It's like debating Trump, complete with the hindsight "we never hyped up Luke Schenn, no sir no way" to try and save face.

We don't want to trade our bluechip prospects for your veterans.

We don't want to hear you convince us how good your guys are and how bad our guys are. Especially when you're the worst team in the NHL and we're a perennial playoff contender.

It's really that simple. Stop demanding other fanbases bend the knee and accept Mitch Marner as far superior to any crap we're putting on the ice.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Ah, the old "I'm not crapping on your team, I'm just giving an objective assessment of how bad your team is" excuse.

The Leafs were the worst team in the NHL last year. The Islanders finished with 100 points and made it to the second round. But hey, I guess the Islanders have failed at drafting and developing their players and have nobody good to show for it except Tavares, who - let me guess - is counting down the minutes til he can sign with Toronto.

You ever hear of the expression "don't count your chickens before they hatch"? Too many Leaf fans, for years and years and years now, get angry and frustrated when you don't agree with their assessment that the Leafs have the best eggs who will undoubtedly all grow into only the best and strongest chickens. Oh, and you also have to agree with their assessment that your team's eggs are rotten and barely salvageable. It's like debating Trump, complete with the hindsight "we never hyped up Luke Schenn, no sir no way" to try and save face.

We don't want to trade our bluechip prospects for your veterans.

We don't want to hear you convince us how good your guys are and how bad our guys are. Especially when you're the worst team in the NHL and we're a perennial playoff contender.

It's really that simple. Stop demanding other fanbases bend the knee and accept Mitch Marner as far superior to any crap we're putting on the ice.

wow, very defensive.

trying a little too hard on the chicken and egg analogy

The leafs have been a terribly managed team, and a terrible drafting team for a very long time - I'll admit that freely. And yes, every prospect we have might not pan out, but everyone seems to like our farm system right now which is a very good start - remember like 3-4 years ago when the Isles were in that position?

Lol @ "perennial playoff contender" - you've made it for 2 years after being bad for a long time, you're about to become a contender which is the time teams gear up to contend - the time prospects usually get dealt for currently contributing players. That's fine if you don't like the deal, just not sure why you have to spit poison at an entire fanbase in the process

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Gardiner and JVR for Barzal and Hickey would be fair.