Barracuda News & Discussion - Part 6

[OrrNumber4]

One can dream. Aside from Meier (who was a top-10 pick) and Labanc, I can't recall a single player Sommer has developed that become anything more than a depth/backup role in the last 10 drafts. Maybe drafting also plays a big part in that, but we changed our drafting ways in 2017, so now it's time for a minor league system change.

How many top-six players spend much time in the AHL? Sommer can't create miracles; if a player is going to be better than a depth guy by the time he's 21-22 he should be firmly in the NHL, which precludes getting AHL time.

 

[LadyStanley]

How many top-six players spend much time in the AHL? Sommer can't create miracles; if a player is going to be better than a depth guy by the time he's 21-22 he should be firmly in the NHL, which precludes getting AHL time.

Couture spent a year.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Couture spent a year.

Did he even get 50 games? It looks like he spent 25 games with the Sharks in 2010, so I'd wager he played <50 games for Worcester and maybe a handful the year before after his OHL season finished.

 

[LadyStanley]

Schedule update

 

[LadyStanley]

Did he even get 50 games? It looks like he spent 25 games with the Sharks in 2010, so I'd wager he played <50 games for Worcester and maybe a handful the year before after his OHL season finished.

Logan Couture Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

42 AHL games

 

[stator]

I'm all for bringing up the young guns. So if saving them from Sommers is one more reason, then so be it.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Sommer has developed absolutely zero top-6 players. Basically every forward who has gone on to score at any kind of top-6 pace has been too good for the AHL before Sommer ever coached them. Even a guy like Labanc was dominating the AHL from day one; he made Rourke Chartier look like a legit prospect.

 

[Lebanezer]

Sommer has developed absolutely zero top-6 players. Basically every forward who has gone on to score at any kind of top-6 pace has been too good for the AHL before Sommer ever coached them. Even a guy like Labanc was dominating the AHL from day one; he made Rourke Chartier look like a legit prospect.

An argument can be made for Clowe. He played 181 games under Sommer.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Sommer has developed absolutely zero top-6 players. Basically every forward who has gone on to score at any kind of top-6 pace has been too good for the AHL before Sommer ever coached them. Even a guy like Labanc was dominating the AHL from day one; he made Rourke Chartier look like a legit prospect.

Out of curiosity is this unique to the Sharks and Sommer? Are other organizations regularly turning sub-par prospects (or at least non top6/4) into top of the lineup NHL players, strictly through development at their AHL pipeline?

I understand that’s a big question to actually answer, but are there any teams/AHL pipelines that have that reputation?

 

[hohosaregood]

Out of curiosity is this unique to the Sharks and Sommer? Are other organizations regularly turning sub-par prospects (or at least non top6/4) into top of the lineup NHL players, strictly through development at their AHL pipeline?

I understand that’s a big question to actually answer, but are there any teams/AHL pipelines that have that reputation?

The vast majority of bonafide NHLers spend less than 2 seasons in the AHL really and there are very few NHL top 6 caliber players that spend more than 100 games in the AHL

 

[jMoneyBrah]

The vast majority of bonafide NHLers spend less than 2 seasons in the AHL really and there are very few NHL top 6 caliber players that spend more than 100 games in the AHL

I get that. However, it doesn’t really answer my question. Like at all.

I’ve heard all the criticisms of Sommer, hell, I’ve made my own, too. But if we are to take seriously the claim that the Sharks, Sommer, and the AHL pipeline is underperforming - specifically when it comes to creating top 6/4 NHL players - shouldn’t we at least have a model of what good looks like?

If bonafide NHL players are generally spending less than 2 seasons in the AHL and that trend is also largely holding true for the Sharks, what is the stink about?

 

[Cas]

I get that. However, it doesn’t really answer my question. Like at all.

I’ve heard all the criticisms of Sommer, hell, I’ve made my own, too. But if we are to take seriously the claim that the Sharks, Sommer, and the AHL pipeline is underperforming - specifically when it comes to creating top 6/4 NHL players - shouldn’t we at least have a model of what good looks like?

If bonafide NHL players are generally spending less than 2 seasons in the AHL and that trend is also largely holding true for the Sharks, what is the stink about?

I think it's more that some prospects who have performed better in the recent past appear to have stalled. Leonard and Chmelevski, for example, looked much better last season, playing in the NHL or AHL, than they do right now (at least in terms of scoring). That's different than guys who scored in juniors simply failing to make the jump to the pros - guys who did score in the pros just a year or two ago have just cratered.

Of course, that is tempered by other guys improving or at least holding steady, like Gregor or Reedy, so who knows. Plus many of these guys are still young enough to turn into something useful, even if they won't be top six play drivers.

 

[LadyStanley]

BARRACUDA SIGN A PAIR FROM ECHL TO PROFESSIONAL TRYOUT AGREEMENTS | San Jose Barracuda

Signings. (And Emond back to ECHL)

 

[jMoneyBrah]

I think it's more that some prospects who have performed better in the recent past appear to have stalled. Leonard and Chmelevski, for example, looked much better last season, playing in the NHL or AHL, than they do right now (at least in terms of scoring). That's different than guys who scored in juniors simply failing to make the jump to the pros - guys who did score in the pros just a year or two ago have just cratered.

Of course, that is tempered by other guys improving or at least holding steady, like Gregor or Reedy, so who knows. Plus many of these guys are still young enough to turn into something useful, even if they won't be top six play drivers.

Thanks for the articulate response. So, basically, your concern is that we’re seeing regression from a few late round prospects that were threatening to outperform their draft positions - and that Sommer’s/the org’s current approach might be preventing them from getting back to that level. I can grok that.

 

[91Fedorov91]

Why do the Barracuda suck so bad?

 

[OrrNumber4]

Thanks for the articulate response. So, basically, your concern is that we’re seeing regression from a few late round prospects that were threatening to outperform their draft positions - and that Sommer’s/the org’s current approach might be preventing them from getting back to that level. I can grok that.

Maybe Sommer is part of the problem. Maybe it's the system...but I think a lot of it is a player adjusting to the pro game. It happens to so many prospects...a lot of time what is seen as regression is a player trying to find his role in the NHL.

Take Leonard, a player who was skilled enough at shooting to be a goal-scorer at other levels. But at the NHL, he can't be that player; if he's going to stick on an NHL roster he needs to contribute in other ways. It is a very difficult transition for most players.

 

[one2gamble]

Take Leonard, a player who was skilled enough at shooting to be a goal-scorer at other levels. But at the NHL, he can't be that player

Meh f*** that, he's got this

 

[LadyStanley]

Back at it 3pm today

 

[Anomie2029]

Sommer has made it past round 1 of the AHL playoffs in 6 seasons out of his 23 seasons as Head coach.
How many players has he made better? If the answer is none - then I'd argue his lack of success is a reason to get rid of him.

If he is making players better then I'd ask where are they? Our better younger players are ones that aren't in the AHL for any significant amount of time. It seems the club and fans of it want to rush to defend Sommer, but what is he actually adding to the club?

 

[CupfortheSharks]

If he is making players better then I'd ask where are they?

Jake Mittleton says hi. Very few high end NHL hockey players spend significant time in the AHL. I think the main part of the job is to help players who aren’t quite ready for the NHL grow to the point that they can contribute something with the big club. The Sharks have been very good at turning late round picks and UFAs into guys who play at the NHL level and Sommer is part of that.

 

[Hobocop]

Blichfeld must have noticed Labanc is going to be out hurt, highest compete level I've seen from him all season in today's game. Throwing bodychecks, making good passes, releasing shots from all over. Two assists for him today. Think he's hoping the situation might result in a callup for him.

Kane was fine both games this weekend, he's at least showing the effort. Got an assist in today's game.

I hope this Patrick Holway guy sticks around for longer, he's solid.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Sommer has made it past round 1 of the AHL playoffs in 6 seasons out of his 23 seasons as Head coach.
How many players has he made better? If the answer is none - then I'd argue his lack of success is a reason to get rid of him.

If he is making players better then I'd ask where are they? Our better younger players are ones that aren't in the AHL for any significant amount of time. It seems the club and fans of it want to rush to defend Sommer, but what is he actually adding to the club?

Honest question, but is the AHL really for taking a top prospect (someone with obviously high skills that are transferable to the NHL) and polishing them over the course of multiple AHL seasons? Does any other org use the AHL for that? Is it for taking marginal prospects and trying to add a few pro features to their game so they can step into bottom 6/pairing roles? What does good in the mind of a critic actually look like?

I’m weary of the endless Sommer sucks conversations. Not because I disagree. I don’t know that I do or I don’t. But in all of those threads over the last decade plus, I can’t recall any examples given of any other team’s AHL pipeline doing something materially different (other than not having one coach forever), or having materially better results. I could be wrong on that. I’d be happy to be wrong. Seriously, I’m very keen to look at any examples of AHL pipelines that have consistently superior results.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

If you just follow the Sharks, you won't understand development. Living in Southeast Michigan, I see coverage of the Wings. Before every season, there will be an article in the local paper about the team's prospects. Almost every prospect will be described in terms like, "The organization sees [player] as a [role, such as #3 dman]. If he is ready for that role, he will make the Wings. If not, he goes to Grand Rapids [their AHL team]." (This changes if the player requires waivers to be sent down.) It is common for their prospects to spend multiple years in minors, often cycling between Detroit and Grand Rapids in a season based on how they play with the Wings.

While some of their prospects make the team without spending time at Grand Rapids (Larkin, Raymond), even high draft picks--Rasmussen, Veleno, Seider, Zadina, Bertuzzi in recent years--spend multiple years in development. (The pandemic messes this up some because they sent players to Europe to develop last year.) All this when the NHL team was bad and could have used these players. That's what development looks like.

Honest question, but is the AHL really for taking a top prospect (someone with obviously high skills that are transferable to the NHL) and polishing them over the course of multiple AHL seasons? Does any other org use the AHL for that? Is it for taking marginal prospects and trying to add a few pro features to their game so they can step into bottom 6/pairing roles? What does good in the mind of a critic actually look like?

I’m weary of the endless Sommer sucks conversations. Not because I disagree. I don’t know that I do or I don’t. But in all of those threads over the last decade plus, I can’t recall any examples given of any other team’s AHL pipeline doing something materially different (other than not having one coach forever), or having materially better results. I could be wrong on that. I’d be happy to be wrong. Seriously, I’m very keen to look at any examples of AHL pipelines that have consistently superior results.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

If you just follow the Sharks, you won't understand development. Living in Southeast Michigan, I see coverage of the Wings. Before every season, there will be an article in the local paper about the team's prospects. Almost every prospect will be described in terms like, "The organization sees [player] as a [role, such as #3 dman]. If he is ready for that role, he will make the Wings. If not, he goes to Grand Rapids [their AHL team]." (This changes if the player requires waivers to be sent down.) It is common for their prospects to spend multiple years in minors, often cycling between Detroit and Grand Rapids in a season based on how they play with the Wings.

While some of their prospects make the team without spending time at Grand Rapids (Larkin, Raymond), even high draft picks--Rasmussen, Veleno, Seider, Zadina, Bertuzzi in recent years--spend multiple years in development. (The pandemic messes this up some because they sent players to Europe to develop last year.) All this when the NHL team was bad and could have used these players. That's what development looks like.

Considering the trajectory of local papers and Sharks/Mercury beat writers that aspect of your favored development approach is not long for this world

I guess if I had to choose an org to answer my own question with, the Wings likely would have been it - with their reputation for leaving their prospects in the A for longer than most.

So if I’m reading your comment correctly, It’s really important that the Sharks get local media to print their internal expectations of players and then they need to start having top prospects staying in the AHL for multiple years and send them back and forth between the NHL and A. That’s development. I mean, I just follow the Sharks, so you might have to break it down Barney style for me.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

OK, Barney style...

1. Have clear expectations for the role of each player at the NHL level in the long run. A realistic projection of what you want them to develop into.

2. If the player does not fit those expectations, sent him back to the AHL to work on his weaknesses. There he can get more ice time in the appropriate role than he can in the NHL even if he is good enough to play in the NHL but below his expectation. This includes PP and PK time which he can get a the AHL level but maybe not the NHL level.

3. Have a consistent style of play throughout the organization so they learn how to play the team's style in the minors. (I leave it to those who watch the Cuda to say if the Sharks organization does this; the Wings do.)

4. When the player shows they are ready for their NHL role, they get promoted and stick. Often this involves promotions where if the player cannot meet their expectation, they go back down.

5. Most important, have patience to let players develop into their roles even if it hurts the NHL team in the short run.

Here are two examples that occur to me:

1. The Sharks should send Weatherby down to work on his game now. His long-run role is a fourth-liner, but he needs to get more physical to play that role. With the Cuda, he would get more ice time to work on physical play and how to use it to create some offense.

2. LaBanc played about 20 games in the AHL, but he could have used more time to force him to develop his defensive awareness and eliminate the lazy penalties. But his offense was good enough to play at the NHL level, and the team lacked depth, so he stayed up.

Considering the trajectory of local papers and Sharks/Mercury beat writers that aspect of your favored development approach is not long for this world

I guess if I had to choose an org to answer my own question with, the Wings likely would have been it - with their reputation for leaving their prospects in the A for longer than most.

So if I’m reading your comment correctly, It’s really important that the Sharks get local media to print their internal expectations of players and then they need to start having top prospects staying in the AHL for multiple years and send them back and forth between the NHL and A. That’s development. I mean, I just follow the Sharks, so you might have to break it down Barney style for me.