Player Discussion Auston Matthews Discussion

[notbias]

Berube needs to ask Nylander and Matthews to have better B games, when the A game isnt there. That means just work hard. Matthews has an average compete level, is invisible too often, given he can score 60 a season in his sleep. If Matthews starts competing harder, he could score 80.

Matthews has been our best player in basically every series and does everything right when he is not scoring, what are you talking about?

Matthews Nylander Tavares Marner
All 4 of them

Softer than kitten fur




We are winning absolutely nothing with these 4 cottonelle babies as the driving force behind this team. Not one of them instills fear in a playoff opponent. They are as beta as an athlete can be.


The scary thing is it looks like they're going to roll with these guys yet again this coming season. Berube is a great distraction. "Oh well at least we made a change" will be the reasoning.

Good thing we brought in a lot of tough hard-nosed players and regressed this year.

 

[notDatsyuk]

No, overpaying mid that is horrible because when they regress you can't move them and their contracts become franchise killers, you have to eat assets just to get another team to take it, I'll cite the history of this board being saturated with 'how the can move Tucker, Kubina, Blake, Clarkson, John Michael Liles, Jeff Finger, Bryan McCabe, Tim Connolly, Francious Beuchemin, Patrick Marleau, Mike Komisarek, David Clarkson as just examples off the top of my head.

You'd be hard pressed find one good contract of these 'three middling players that are slightly overpaid they are all insanely overpaid.

Mitch on the other hand, is the one that is 'slightly overpaid' a 99 point winger making 10.9 is actually pretty much fair value.

Mitch is never useless, the players you suggest the Leafs chase are all average at best or useless.

I'm yet to read one decent counter point to what I'm saying.

I said "slight overpayment" and you respond with a list of players that you yourself call "insanely overpaid"?

I never called Mitch 'useless', and I haven't suggested any players to 'chase'.

A good regular season player who disappears in the playoffs may be only slightly overpaid at $10.9, but not at the speculated $12-13 for his next contract.

I've yet to read one decent counter point to what I said.

 

[Confucius]

When have I been dishonest?

You married to a bad idea. How about we run Tyler Bertuzzi out of town because he's was beyond useless at 5 million, he was 5 million of dead cap space. He's overpaid by 5 million dollars.

No? We have to scapegoat Mitch because we hold him to insane standards.

I'll keep the guy with that produces and the criticism is that he's yet to cement his ceiling in the playoffs. I'll take the guy that got 11 points against Tampa in our only playoff win.

Stop whining and address what I've said or don't reply to me. My criticism is fair, plain and honest, I'm not the one making excuses.

Ok I’ll put names to what we will get for Mitch’s 11 million, any 2 of Bertuzzi, Brodie and Klingberg. Which 2 do you want? / lol

 

[Stephen]

When have I been dishonest?

You married to a bad idea. How about we run Tyler Bertuzzi out of town because he's was beyond useless at 5 million, he was 5 million of dead cap space. He's overpaid by 5 million dollars.

No? We have to scapegoat Mitch because we hold him to insane standards.

I'll keep the guy with that produces and the criticism is that he's yet to cement his ceiling in the playoffs. I'll take the guy that got 11 points against Tampa in our only playoff win.

Stop whining and address what I've said or don't reply to me. My criticism is fair, plain and honest, I'm not the one making excuses.

Marner doesn’t produce in the playoffs and especially not in elimination moments. You could replace his salary with something like Cirelli and Hagel and you’d already be at par. You could have two more Bertuzzi’s and Domi’s and you’d be better off. You could spend his money on one Bobrovsky and we’d be several steps closer to a cup. You could do literally any combination of $10.916 million in the playoffs and that would be an upgrade on Marner. Don’t get me wrong, there aren’t trade ideas. But only to show how also any permutation of players and increased depth or strength at other positions is doable. Marner isn’t special in the playoffs.

 

[IPS]

I’d settle for Matthews being average in the playoffs.

In the last two Boston and Florida series, Matthews has played 10 games and scored 1 goal. The Leafs are also 2-8 in that time.

That’s a 69 goal scoring Rocket man falling to an 8 goal pace over 82 games.

Most things on this roster are cheaply put together and the money is all at the top. At the very top, Matthews doesn’t deliver at all.

It is what it is, he's the franchise #1C who's immensely talented and you kind of have to stick with him and pray he figures it out someday. Same with Vancouver and Pettersson, he no-shows pretty bad but it still makes far more sense to just sign him and hope he can do it eventually. You do not have to afford wingers this same respect, they are not the same hot commodity that #1C's are.

 

[Stephen]

It is what it is, he's the franchise #1C who's immensely talented and you kind of have to stick with him and pray he figures it out someday. Same with Vancouver and Pettersson, he no-shows pretty bad but it still makes far more sense to just sign him and hope he can do it eventually. You do not have to afford wingers this same respect, they are not the same hot commodity that #1C's are.

Matthews is on track to be this era’s Joe Thornton come playoff time, so he’s gotta either take his own game and team up several notches to avoid that fate… or the expectations start coming down with massive reputational downgrade to match a near decade long futility streak.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Literally any combination of 1 player or 2-3 teammates on any team that has advanced to the second round of the playoffs totalling $10.916 million since 2019 is a better use of money than Mitch Marner in the playoffs. The permutations are infinite.

The Leafs existed for 100 years before Mitch and will exist 100 years after Mitch. This naysaying about change is nonsense.

Not if you're employed by Rocket Security.... Their jobs depend on it.

I don’t think we’re having an open and honest dialogue about Marner trade scenarios anyway, so why bother?

Why do you bother? Don't you get it yet?

 

[Squiffy]

Here’s one: Matthews goes nuts, has the best regular season of his career so far, that's a high bar, and makes an easy vote for Hart. Discuss.

 

[Stephen]

Here’s one: Matthews goes nuts, has the best regular season of his career so far, that's a high bar, and makes an easy vote for Hart. Discuss.

The issue is the variance between Auston Matthews' regular season (dominance) and playoff struggles (his own production, special teams reliability and team performance). Of course we want him to win a Rocket, Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay, First Team All-Star in a single season... but that has got to be a stepping stone to playoff dominance and noticeable steps towards championship goals, not a diving board for more reputational damage to both himself and the Leafs. You can't put up all time numbers and get chased out of a series by Charlie f'ing Coyle next year.

 

[Gilmour1996]

At least Matthews has improved defensively over the last couple years, unlike Mitch, Willie and Johnny who have pretty much stayed status quo. I think Rielly has even regressed defensively. Coach should have rested all 5 before the playoffs.

 

[IPS]

I've said it for awhile I'll gladly take a Matthews down year for him to have a Draisaitl/McDavid like playoffs where he just pops off completely. Rockets don't interest me anymore, he's clearly shown he's the most talented goal scorer in the league. And if trading Marner means he's gonna have a few less goals in the regular season but more in the playoffs then it's well worth it.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

Marner doesn’t produce in the playoffs and especially not in elimination moments. You could replace his salary with something like Cirelli and Hagel and you’d already be at par. You could have two more Bertuzzi’s and Domi’s and you’d be better off. You could spend his money on one Bobrovsky and we’d be several steps closer to a cup. You could do literally any combination of $10.916 million in the playoffs and that would be an upgrade on Marner. Don’t get me wrong, there aren’t trade ideas. But only to show how also any permutation of players and increased depth or strength at other positions is doable. Marner isn’t special in the playoffs.

Oh like when Marner out produced Cirelli and Hagel combined when the Leafs beat Tampa?

Bertuzzi did nothing as a Leaf, how do you do better with two useless contracts. Domi did great but that's what you get when you chase these at best slightly above average players, you're more likely to get a Nick Ritchie than a Hagel.

Goaltending, another defenseman at least as good as Rielly (doesn't have to play the same role) and a 3C, those are the Leafs roster needs. You don't have to give away to get that done.

He didn't have a great series against Boston but you Bertuzzis to did nothing?

 

[Tak7]

Tkachuk forced his hand, and he had to do it fast or get nothing.

Do we know when he started dangling Willy, and if he dangled Mitch too? All I recall are rumours and heresay.

The other side of it is if he dangled the better player on a much better contract, albeit for only one year, with no takers for what he wanted, maybe he figured Mitch would get less, so not worth the effort.

His hand should have been forced with the Marner NMC.

If Marner was dangled last summer, we'd absolutely know about it - this isn't the Lou days where info never got out. And you don't know the potential return on a player until you offer him out there.

If he's assuming the market didn't exist for Marner, and therefore didn't offer him out, that's him not doing his job.

 

[IPS]

Bertuzzi did nothing as a Leaf, how do you do better with two useless contracts.

He outscored Marner this last postseason. So did Domi. If you wanna condescendingly make your point about Marner outscoring Cirelli and Hagel last postseason, then you have to acknowledge this too.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Oh like when Marner out produced Cirelli and Hagel combined when the Leafs beat Tampa?

Bertuzzi did nothing as a Leaf, how do you do better with two useless contracts. Domi did great but that's what you get when you chase these at best slightly above average players, you're more likely to get a Nick Ritchie than a Hagel.

Goaltending, another defenseman at least as good as Rielly (doesn't have to play the same role) and a 3C, those are the Leafs roster needs. You don't have to give away to get that done.

He didn't have a great series against Boston but you Bertuzzis to did nothing?

 

[Leafsfanperson]

He outscored Marner this last postseason. So did Domi. If you wanna condescendingly make your point about Marner outscoring Cirelli and Hagel last postseason, then you have to acknowledge this too.

What a sample size.

Cirelli and Hagel would win the Leafs a cup and Marner is inept? This is the hill this roster needs to die on.

Careful what you wish for because looks like you're gunna get it this summer.

 

[Confucius]

What a sample size.

Cirelli and Hagel would win the Leafs a cup and Marner is inept? This is the hill this roster needs to die on.

Careful what you wish for because looks like you're gunna get it this summer.

The problem with that line of thought is those guys won’t become available, they were recently locked up long term for 13 million. The type of guys we will get in a UFA market are the type we have got in the past. How many if any of those guys turned out well for us?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

What a sample size.

Cirelli and Hagel would win the Leafs a cup and Marner is inept? This is the hill this roster needs to die on.

Careful what you wish for because looks like you're gunna get it this summer.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

The problem with that line of thought is those guys won’t become available, they were recently locked up long term for 13 million. The type of guys we will get in a UFA market are the type we have got in the past. How many if any of those guys turned out well for us?

I was trying to be charitable to that poster because at least he gave some real examples.

Even trading for those players it's like the Matt Belesky effect, he has a good playoff run, that's this peak of his career and he's a glorified AHLer for the rest of his career. Getting average players after they had their cinderella run while ignoring they can't drive play.

These guys would trade Marner for Justin Williams.

Thanks for being the one of the few with a level head this summer.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I was trying to be charitable to that poster because at least he gave some real examples.

Even trading for those players it's like the Matt Belesky effect, he has a good playoff run, that's this peak of his career and he's a glorified AHLer for the rest of his career. Getting average players after they had their cinderella run while ignoring they can't drive play.

These guys would trade Marner for Justin Williams.

Thanks for being the one of the few with a level head this summer.

 

[saffronleaf]

I look at the goal Jamie Benn scored to open the game. Was supporting down low, got a pass and took it up the ice in a hurry, ripped it in from the right wing from the off wing. How easy was that? Just a simple hockey goal. Why is that such a challenge for our Uber stars?

Despite being Uber stars, they rarely drive the play

 

[Stephen]

What a sample size.

Cirelli and Hagel would win the Leafs a cup and Marner is inept? This is the hill this roster needs to die on.

Careful what you wish for because looks like you're gunna get it this summer.

It's not a hill to die on other than to illustrate how two average middle six forwards contributing something, anything is better than a $11 million man who provides nothing.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I've said it for awhile I'll gladly take a Matthews down year for him to have a Draisaitl/McDavid like playoffs where he just pops off completely. Rockets don't interest me anymore, he's clearly shown he's the most talented goal scorer in the league. And if trading Marner means he's gonna have a few less goals in the regular season but more in the playoffs then it's well worth it.

You're right...those things are basically empty calories when you don't follow them up with good/great post season runs. Those type of accolades are for fans of teams that stink and never make the playoffs....like Buffalo and Ottawa.

 

[IPS]

Even trading for those players it's like the Matt Belesky effect, he has a good playoff run, that's this peak of his career and he's a glorified AHLer for the rest of his career. Getting average players after they had their cinderella run while ignoring they can't drive play.

You lost me here. We don't have any of that going on here, so this seems like a very useless discussion point.

Thanks for being the one of the few with a level head this summer.

Cheering to bring back a core that's failed 8 years in a row, yeah your guys' heads are level with something, that's for sure.

 

[fahad203]

Despite being Uber stars, they rarely drive the play

No you didn't