Player Discussion Auston Matthews Discussion

[Leafsfanperson]

The reason why people want to trade Marner is because he's not worth it as a player.

On top of the offensive misery, he has a tendency to turn the puck over or do something really bad defensively in key playoff moments.

Yes, we might end up with overpaid players. How is that different than Marner? The only difference is we might have more flexibility without Marner.

Ultimately, the reason why the core 4 failed is because Marner and Tavares weren't good/worth their contracts.

The wrong takeaway is thinking we can't win with highly paid forwards. The real takeaway is you can't win when 2/4 of the highly paid forwards suck. Matthews isn't a generational player in the playoffs.

The difference is you rather over pay middling players than overpay an elite player.

Let's over pay three guys instead of one.

 

[Stephen]

Took 15 years for MLSE to admit they needed to rebuild and now they are obligated to flush a cornerstone or more because you're exhausted?

Boo hoo

I'll take my hat off to Mitch, he's not holding anyone hostage and he getting treated like he's Dion Phaneuf.

You want to suggest that the window isn't Auston Matthew's prime? The mental gymnastics people use to celebrate this ignorant narrative.

If they trade Tavares 11 cap hit today, they'll just give Debrusk 6 per x 6 and Pesche the same. I'd rather week Tavares for another year that set the next 6 years on fire, if you're tired now, you'll stop watching entirely after you get want you think you want.

Even though the Leafs have been built with higher end offensive talent this era and have been on cruise control in the regular season, they are exactly 2 games ahead of what the Dion Phaneuf, Kessel, Bozak and JVR era was ever able to achieve after 10 years of mismanaged development of the core.

Matthews and Marner, (and Nylander, Tavares and Rielly) are a group constantly on the cusp of something special based on their talent level and exorbitant salaries, but are never actually special. Every night in the playoffs, special moments occur and these guys have given us very little to cheer about in their 8 years of futility.

As the disappointment piles on, you just come to the realization that this product is a) not entertaining and b) doesn't work on the ice when it matters. The Maple Leafs are basically the Minnesota Wild but have arrived at playoff mediocrity via another route. Change is necessary. When we look back on this era in the 2030s, most people won't look back fondly on this group.

 

[thewave]

Even though the Leafs have been built with higher end offensive talent this era and have been on cruise control in the regular season, they are exactly 2 games ahead of what the Dion Phaneuf, Kessel, Bozak and JVR era was ever able to achieve after 10 years of mismanaged development of the core.

Matthews and Marner, (and Nylander, Tavares and Rielly) are a group constantly on the cusp of something special based on their talent level and exorbitant salaries, but are never actually special. Every night in the playoffs, special moments occur and these guys have given us very little to cheer about in their 8 years of futility.

As the disappointment piles on, you just come to the realization that this product is a) not entertaining and b) doesn't work on the ice when it matters. The Maple Leafs are basically the Minnesota Wild but have arrived at playoff mediocrity via another route. Change is necessary. When we look back on this era in the 2030s, most people won't look back fondly on this group.

They are going to look back on it as the biggest missed opportunity and organizational failure of all time.

The management dynamic alone will have a book written on it. The focus being how one of the most promising rebuilds went so far off course. Dubas. Money Ball. NuHockey. Rookie Coach Keefe. FIRING OF Babcock. Letting go of so many players that went on to win elsewhere. Lack of addressing the tender position. Lack of developing C D and Gs.

Its crazy

 

[Stephen]

The difference is you rather over pay middling players than overpay an elite player.

Let's over pay three guys instead of one.

The eliteness of our core players doesn't really manifest when it matters.

 

[Stephen]

They are going to look back on it as the biggest missed opportunity and organizational failure of all time.

The management dynamic alone will have a book written on it. The focus being how one of the most promising rebuilds went so far off course. Dubas. Money Ball. NuHockey. Rookie Coach Keefe. FIRING OF Babcock. Letting go of so many players that went on to win elsewhere. Lack of addressing the tender position. Lack of developing C D and Gs.

Its crazy

I disagree with the idea that it's been a missed opportunity.

At the core of all the Leafs shortcomings, Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner are not who they need to be when it matters up to this point in their careers.

The faith that has been put into them to deliver has not been rewarded. A lot of other factors come into play, maybe not giving them the best support, the best play style, but they simply haven't delivered.

Leon Draisaitl has more than double the career playoff points of Auston Matthews while playing in only 7 more games. This is why a flawed Oilers team is inching closer to their championship goals this spring while Toronto's stuck in its Groundhog Day.

 

[Trapper]

The difference is you rather over pay middling players than overpay an elite player.

Let's over pay three guys instead of one.

But we aren’t just overpaying one. It’s 4.
Matthews/Nylander/Tavares/Marner. And 2 are wingers. We don’t have the prime D or goalie even being paid. 2 are wingers.
If Marner was on other team with a high paid D or the only double digit guy, different story.

It doesn’t. Show me the playoff success that it works.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Berube needs to ask Nylander and Matthews to have better B games, when the A game isnt there. That means just work hard. Matthews has an average compete level, is invisible too often, given he can score 60 a season in his sleep. If Matthews starts competing harder, he could score 80.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The difference is you rather over pay middling players than overpay an elite player.

Let's over pay three guys instead of one.

Small overpayments for three middling players is likely better than a huge overpayment for one pretty good player.

 

[fahad203]

I disagree with the idea that it's been a missed opportunity.

At the core of all the Leafs shortcomings, Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner are not who they need to be when it matters up to this point in their careers.

The faith that has been put into them to deliver has not been rewarded. A lot of other factors come into play, maybe not giving them the best support, the best play style, but they simply haven't delivered.

Leon Draisaitl has more than double the career playoff points of Auston Matthews while playing in only 7 more games. This is why a flawed Oilers team is inching closer to their championship goals this spring while Toronto's stuck in its Groundhog Day.

Drai is hated because he plays for the Oilers. I still think he's criminally underrated

He almost has same amount of goals as Matthews has points in playoffs

100 playoff points in 63 games. If anyone did that regular season that's an MVP season

Let alone to do that in playoffs

 

[IPS]

I disagree with the idea that it's been a missed opportunity.

At the core of all the Leafs shortcomings, Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner are not who they need to be when it matters up to this point in their careers.

The faith that has been put into them to deliver has not been rewarded. A lot of other factors come into play, maybe not giving them the best support, the best play style, but they simply haven't delivered.

Leon Draisaitl has more than double the career playoff points of Auston Matthews while playing in only 7 more games. This is why a flawed Oilers team is inching closer to their championship goals this spring while Toronto's stuck in its Groundhog Day.

How do ya think Mitch and Auston do in tonight's game vs Dallas?

They'd get their lunch money taken every shift. Connor had to fight his ass off for even minor chances.

 

[Stephen]

How do ya think Mitch and Auston do in tonight's game vs Dallas?

They'd get their lunch money taken every shift. Connor had to fight his ass off for even minor chances.

I look at the goal Jamie Benn scored to open the game. Was supporting down low, got a pass and took it up the ice in a hurry, ripped it in from the right wing from the off wing. How easy was that? Just a simple hockey goal. Why is that such a challenge for our Uber stars?

 

[Martin Skoula]

I look at the goal Jamie Benn scored to open the game. Was supporting down low, got a pass and took it up the ice in a hurry, ripped it in from the right wing from the off wing. How easy was that? Just a simple hockey goal. Why is that such a challenge for our Uber stars?

That goal actually doesn’t count because he didn’t work hard for it and it wasn’t from the dirty areas where playoff goals are scored from.

 

[PromisedLand]

Saw this on twitter LMAO

 

[hfman]

Matthews Nylander Tavares Marner
All 4 of them

Softer than kitten fur




We are winning absolutely nothing with these 4 cottonelle babies as the driving force behind this team. Not one of them instills fear in a playoff opponent. They are as beta as an athlete can be.


The scary thing is it looks like they're going to roll with these guys yet again this coming season. Berube is a great distraction. "Oh well at least we made a change" will be the reasoning.

 

[sunstersun]

Can Matthews be an elite player in the playoffs? Maybe with a more effective RW who can shoot and be physical?

Matthews has above average speed nothing special. His hands don't really result in opportunities to score. His shot is elite, but he also is more dependent on setup or someone else than I would like. Physical wise, I don't think he impacts the game enough. Playmaking wise, he's good, but not great.

So, ideally a better linemate, some better passing and more physical hitting could produce a better Matthews in the post season.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

Small overpayments for three middling players is likely better than a huge overpayment for one pretty good player.

No, overpaying mid that is horrible because when they regress you can't move them and their contracts become franchise killers, you have to eat assets just to get another team to take it, I'll cite the history of this board being saturated with 'how the can move Tucker, Kubina, Blake, Clarkson, John Michael Liles, Jeff Finger, Bryan McCabe, Tim Connolly, Francious Beuchemin, Patrick Marleau, Mike Komisarek, David Clarkson as just examples off the top of my head.

You'd be hard pressed find one good contract of these 'three middling players that are slightly overpaid they are all insanely overpaid.

Mitch on the other hand, is the one that is 'slightly overpaid' a 99 point winger making 10.9 is actually pretty much fair value.

Mitch is never useless, the players you suggest the Leafs chase are all average at best or useless.

I'm yet to read one decent counter point to what I'm saying.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

But we aren’t just overpaying one. It’s 4.
Matthews/Nylander/Tavares/Marner. And 2 are wingers. We don’t have the prime D or goalie even being paid. 2 are wingers.
If Marner was on other team with a high paid D or the only double digit guy, different story.

It doesn’t. Show me the playoff success that it works.

Again, you're suggesting magic unicorns that dominate in the playoffs to get through trade or use of freed up cap space. EVER NOTICE YOU PEOPLE NEVER NAME NAMES BECAUSE YOU'RE ASKING FOR THINGS THAT DON'T EXIST.

You're saying Matthews, Nylander and Marner are 'overpaid' what do you think their cap hit should be? Tell me about your utopian cap hits on your imaginary dynasty.

'show me in the playoffs' awwwww we have another crying super fan. My team didn't win in game 7 overtime so we devolve into a borderline wildcard team....

Can anyone actually discuss the issues instead of saying, 'boo hoo we lost again I need to blame a guy if we keep will likely become the franchise leader in points'

I've never had an easier tie dunking on a message board.

The eliteness of our core players doesn't really manifest when it matters.

Who do you want insted of Marner then? McDavid?

 

[Stephen]

Who do you want insted of Marner then? McDavid?

At $11 million for Mitch Marner you could potentially be paying a Vezina winner and have enough for a top six forward who isn’t afraid of his own shadow come playoff time. The list and permutation is literally endless.

 

[ToneDog]

Drai is hated because he plays for the Oilers. I still think he's criminally underrated

He almost has same amount of goals as Matthews has points in playoffs

100 playoff points in 63 games. If anyone did that regular season that's an MVP season

Let alone to do that in playoffs

If he did that here, we'd treat him like a God.

 

[Stephen]

Can Matthews be an elite player in the playoffs? Maybe with a more effective RW who can shoot and be physical?

Matthews has above average speed nothing special. His hands don't really result in opportunities to score. His shot is elite, but he also is more dependent on setup or someone else than I would like. Physical wise, I don't think he impacts the game enough. Playmaking wise, he's good, but not great.

So, ideally a better linemate, some better passing and more physical hitting could produce a better Matthews in the post season.

I’d settle for Matthews being average in the playoffs.

In the last two Boston and Florida series, Matthews has played 10 games and scored 1 goal. The Leafs are also 2-8 in that time.

That’s a 69 goal scoring Rocket man falling to an 8 goal pace over 82 games.

Most things on this roster are cheaply put together and the money is all at the top. At the very top, Matthews doesn’t deliver at all.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

At $11 million for Mitch Marner you could potentially be paying a Vezina winner and have enough for a top six forward who isn’t afraid of his own shadow come playoff time. The list and permutation is literally endless.

Name them ffs

It's more likely to pay three bad contracts and we both know I'm right.

 

[Stephen]

Name them ffs

It's more likely to pay three bad contracts and we both know I'm right.

Literally any combination of 1 player or 2-3 teammates on any team that has advanced to the second round of the playoffs totalling $10.916 million since 2019 is a better use of money than Mitch Marner in the playoffs. The permutations are infinite.

The Leafs existed for 100 years before Mitch and will exist 100 years after Mitch. This naysaying about change is nonsense.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

Literally any combination of 1 player or 2-3 teammates on any team that has advanced to the second round of the playoffs totalling $10.916 million since 2019 is a better use of money than Mitch Marner in the playoffs. The permutations are infinite.

The Leafs existed for 100 years before Mitch and will exist 100 years after Mitch. This naysaying about change is nonsense.

So you don't have concrete ideas just like everyone else, cool.

 

[Stephen]

So you don't have concrete ideas just like everyone else, cool.

I don’t think we’re having an open and honest dialogue about Marner trade scenarios anyway, so why bother?

 

[Leafsfanperson]

I don’t think we’re having an open and honest dialogue about Marner trade scenarios anyway, so why bother?

When have I been dishonest?

You married to a bad idea. How about we run Tyler Bertuzzi out of town because he's was beyond useless at 5 million, he was 5 million of dead cap space. He's overpaid by 5 million dollars.

No? We have to scapegoat Mitch because we hold him to insane standards.

I'll keep the guy with that produces and the criticism is that he's yet to cement his ceiling in the playoffs. I'll take the guy that got 11 points against Tampa in our only playoff win.

Stop whining and address what I've said or don't reply to me. My criticism is fair, plain and honest, I'm not the one making excuses.