Auston Matthews 69 goals in 81 games, most goals scored since Lemieux in 1995-96

[TDK67]

Zac Funk has more assists though.

True. Kind of a testament to how good Funk is since he's facing tougher D and goaltending in the WHL. Highly doubt Matthews leads the world & most junior leagues in G/GP if he was playing anywhere other than the NHL.

 

[Regal]

Ovechkin's 65 goal season he was also being fed like significantly more PP chances then you get in today's NHL.

Yet the league was still lower scoring because PPs were less efficient and it was harder to score at ES

The 153 points was accompanied by 64 goals… I would think six fewer goals and a million more assists is much more impressive. Not close for me.

Yea it’s a pretty stupid comparison honestly. There’s no argument that 6 more goals would make up for 50+ more assists.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

He’s somehow one upped his Hart season.

 

[TDK67]

In a vacuum, 64g 153p > 70g 115pts

With context of scoring relative to the league:

* 153p was +20% more than #2 pt total (128pts)

* 77g (pace) is +40% more than #2 goal pace (57g)

Doing 3-4 laps around the rest of the league in goal scoring is more impressive than 1-2 laps around the rest of the league in pts

 

[authentic]

70 goals and ~120 points? Not for me, no. 70 goals and ~140 points? Probably

What about 75 goals and 125 points?

Could Matthews one day be as good as Zac Funk? I think not, but a fun thought nonetheless.

#KeepItUpKid

Matthews can’t elevate his teammates the same way. He just doesn’t got the funk.

 

[Strangle]

Yet the league was still lower scoring because PPs were less efficient and it was harder to score at ES



Yea it’s a pretty stupid comparison honestly. There’s no argument that 6 more goals would make up for 50+ more assists.

League scoring is irrelevant to individual performances

 

[authentic]

Yet the league was still lower scoring because PPs less efficient and it was harder to score at ES



Yea it’s a pretty stupid comparison honestly. There’s no argument that 6 more goals would make up for 50+ more assists.

But Ovechkin still had/has far more powerplay time relative to the rest of the league, to the point that despite playing in a lower scoring league throughout their careers up to the same point he actually played in a higher scoring environment than Matthews. That’s why it always gets brought up when people mention scoring levels with these two, and rightfully so.

 

[authentic]

In a vacuum, 64g 153p > 70g 115pts

With context of scoring relative to the league:

* 153p was +20% more than #2 pt total (128pts)

* 77g (pace) is +40% more than #2 goal pace (57g)

Doing 3-4 laps around the rest of the league in goal scoring is more impressive than 1-2 laps around the rest of the league in pts

Both are pretty close, but given how Matthews is scoring compared to how McDavid did last season though (playing actual defense, getting a minute less PP time per game) it’s arguably more impressive.

 

[Regal]

League scoring is irrelevant to individual performances

Yea that’s nonsense

 

[Regal]

But Ovechkin still had/has far more powerplay time relative to the rest of the league, to the point that despite playing in a lower scoring league throughout their careers up to the same point he actually played in a higher scoring environment than Matthews. That’s why it always gets brought up when people mention scoring levels with these two, and rightfully so.

It’s a decent argument, though I think the impact of staying out the whole two minutes isn’t quite the same as the impact of PP opportunities alone

 

[Calderon]

Even ignoring adjusted stats altogether, Matthews is simply having a more dominant season thus far, he just needs to finish at a decent pace to put the nail in the peak Ovechkin coffin.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the goal scoring side of things only but if you aren't I don't think you're right. The context reveals a lot:

Matthews is pacing for 77-35--112 in 81 games.
Ovechkin had 65-47--112 in 82 games.
Yes Matthews is pacing for better in goals and EV goals while the points are tied. When we factor in the scoring environment AM's numbers are going to be somewhat inflated. Then we'll add the fact that AM has only recently risen to the 6th place in the points race very recently and we have no reason to believe he'll going to be even close to the contention for the Art Ross: McDavid has tied the league lead in the ppg with 1.67 and given his injury back in the fall the context speaks strongly for the fact that he's going to finish even higher than his current pace of 134 points suggest. That is to say that AM will most likely lose the point race by the tune of 25+ points. Ovechkin, on the other hand, won the Art Ross in his season.

On top of it all we really have to bear in mind that even 65+ goals is far from being in the bag for AM as of now (13 goals away as I'm writing this), let alone 77.

 

[Regal]

In a vacuum, 64g 153p > 70g 115pts

With context of scoring relative to the league:

* 153p was +20% more than #2 pt total (128pts)

* 77g (pace) is +40% more than #2 goal pace (57g)

Doing 3-4 laps around the rest of the league in goal scoring is more impressive than 1-2 laps around the rest of the league in pts

I guess it depends if we’re just comparing the impressiveness of the goals compared to the impressiveness of the points or the overall season. 77 goals would be a more impressive goal scoring season than 153 was in terms of points production, but I think 64/153 would still be a better season overall than 77/112 (his current pace).

 

[authentic]

I'm not sure if you're referring to the goal scoring side of things only but if you aren't I don't think you're right. The context reveals a lot:

Matthews is pacing for 77-35--112 in 81 games.
Ovechkin had 65-47--112 in 82 games.
Yes Matthews is pacing for better in goals and EV goals while the points are tied. When we factor in the scoring environment AM's numbers are going to be somewhat inflated. Then we'll add the fact that AM has only recently risen to the 6th place in the points race very recently and we have no reason to believe he'll going to be even close to the contention for the Art Ross: McDavid has tied the league lead in the ppg with 1.67 and given his injury back in the fall the context speaks strongly for the fact that he's going to finish even higher than his current pace of 134 points suggest. That is to say that AM will most likely lose the point race by the tune of 25+ points. Ovechkin, on the other hand, won the Art Ross in his season.

On top of it all we really have to bear in mind that even 65+ goals is far from being in the bag for AM as of now (13 goals away as I'm writing this), let alone 77.

I’m referring to goal scoring only. You can read through my past few posts as to why his goal scoring is more impressive despite the eras, and he’s currently having a more dominant season there anyway he just needs to finish strong.

People really just look at points when they say “overall” though, are we supposed to ignore that the games they play away from the puck are polar opposites, just like their time on the powerplay?

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I'm not sure if you're referring to the goal scoring side of things only but if you aren't I don't think you're right. The context reveals a lot:

Matthews is pacing for 77-35--112 in 81 games.
Ovechkin had 65-47--112 in 82 games.
Yes Matthews is pacing for better in goals and EV goals while the points are tied. When we factor in the scoring environment AM's numbers are going to be somewhat inflated. Then we'll add the fact that AM has only recently risen to the 6th place in the points race very recently and we have no reason to believe he'll going to be even close to the contention for the Art Ross: McDavid has tied the league lead in the ppg with 1.67 and given his injury back in the fall the context speaks strongly for the fact that he's going to finish even higher than his current pace of 134 points suggest. That is to say that AM will most likely lose the point race by the tune of 25+ points. Ovechkin, on the other hand, won the Art Ross in his season.

On top of it all we really have to bear in mind that even 65+ goals is far from being in the bag for AM as of now (13 goals away as I'm writing this), let alone 77.

.....I think the guy is going to score 13 goals over the rest of the season lmao going out on a limb on that one.

 

[Regal]

I’m referring to goal scoring only. You can read through my past few posts as to why his goal scoring is more impressive despite the eras, and he’s currently having a more dominant season there anyway he just needs to finish strong.

People really just look at points though when they say “overall” though, are we supposed to ignore that the games they play away from the puck are pale opposite, just like their time on the powerplay?

You’re putting too much stock in Matthews’ defense and not enough in Ovechkin’s better offensive play driving. Peak Ovechkin also limited goals against because of how much he pushed offense. Their overall effectiveness outside of production is probably close but I would still give Ovechkin the edge, and Matthews would have to out produce Ovechkin (once scoring environments are included) in order to be a better overall player at their peaks imo.

 

[PaulD]

In a vacuum, 64g 153p > 70g 115pts

With context of scoring relative to the league:

* 153p was +20% more than #2 pt total (128pts)

* 77g (pace) is +40% more than #2 goal pace (57g)

Doing 3-4 laps around the rest of the league in goal scoring is more impressive than 1-2 laps around the rest of the league in pts

Is assists don't count for much then Marner is the most over paid player in the league.....or is is Tavares?

 

[authentic]

You’re putting too much stock in Matthews’ defense and not enough in Ovechkin’s better offensive play driving. Peak Ovechkin also limited goals against because of how much he pushed offense. Their overall effectiveness outside of production is probably close but I would still give Ovechkin the edge, and Matthews would have to out produce Ovechkin (once scoring environments are included) in order to be a better overall player at their peaks imo.

The difference is nearly negligible when including their deployment on the powerplay, 5:37 to 3:15, 2nd in powerplay time vs. 65th last I checked, that has to make up some of the difference. Also, Ovechkin drove play extremely well and was a physical beast hitting everything in sight, but he also played run and gun which helped his stats even further as opposed to playing an elite two-way game at center. I think at this point most are aware that Matthews stacks up well in goal scoring to peak Ovechkin but many are still underrating his overall game. I’m not saying he’s better than peak Ovechkin but I also don’t think he’s much worse, especially if he can combine this season with a signature playoff run.

 

[GeoRox89]

What about 75 goals and 125 points?



Matthews can’t elevate his teammates the same way. He just doesn’t got the funk.

Think it would have to hit 75 and ~135 to get me debating which is better. I can see the arguments either way at many points. If McDavid had scored 50 goals this would be a more interesting debate (for me) than it is when he had 64. I’ll buy the argument for rating goals higher than straight points but I have a hard time rating them as more than 2x higher

 

[authentic]

Think it would have to hit 75 and ~135 to get me debating which is better. I can see the arguments either way at many points. If McDavid had scored 50 goals this would be a more interesting debate (for me) than it is when he had 64. I’ll buy the argument for rating goals higher than straight points but I have a hard time rating them as more than 2x higher

Yeah come to think of it 130-135 would be more like it. McDavid leading the league in goals and assists at the same time would be ultimately more impressive though.

 

[Regal]

The difference is nearly negligible when including their deployment on the powerplay, 5:37 to 3:15, 2nd in powerplay time vs. 65th last I checked, that has to make up some of the difference. Also, Ovechkin drove play extremely well and was a physical beast hitting everything in sight, but he also played run and gun which helped his stats even further as opposed to playing an elite two-way game at center. I think at this point most are aware that Matthews stacks up well in goal scoring to peak Ovechkin but many are still underrating his overall game. I’m not saying he’s better than peak Ovechkin but I also don’t think he’s much worse, especially if he can combine this season with a signature playoff run.

I should have said all factors when it comes to measuring production, so I agree that deployment is a factor is how we measure their relative production. I’m not sure if I agree that his run and gun game should factor into their production comparison, because he was still limiting chances against, and he was doing it with less help. I think Matthews’ season will likely end up better in terms of peak goal scoring, but I still have trouble seeing him quite at the same level as peak Ovechkin as an overall offensive force. But maybe that’s my bias in terms of what I value in players. I still think MacKinnon is a better player than Matthews and Ovechkin did a lot of the same things he does but was a better goal scorer on top of it.

 

[ALine]

Yet the league was still lower scoring because PPs were less efficient and it was harder to score at ES



Yea it’s a pretty stupid comparison honestly. There’s no argument that 6 more goals would make up for 50+ more assists.

Forgive my ape brain I am trying to get a handle on this adjusted goals business (fairly straight forward math by why is 6 such an import number?).
Wouldn’t less efficiency be at best a non factor, or at worst a knock against OV here.
What does the 91st best goal scorer in 07/08 (Kunitz 21g/82games) and 21/22 (JVR 24g/82 games) have anything to do with it. It’s not like this is ancient history, many who played then are still playing now.


For 07/08 for OV, 21/22 for Matthews.

-Ov scored 33% of his goals on the pp
-Ov pp goals were 51% of his EV total
-caps had 346 pp opportunities that season.

-Matthews scored 26% of his goal on the pp
-Matthews pp goals were 36% of his EV total
-leafs had 231 pp opportunities that season.


OV’s pp opportunities were more crucial to his goal totals than for Matthews. league wide PP efficiency is irrelevant.

 

[Regal]

Forgive my ape brain I am trying to get a handle on this adjusted goals business (fairly straight forward math by why is 6 such an import number?).
Wouldn’t less efficiency be at best a non factor, or at worst a knock against OV here.
What does the 91st best goal scorer in 07/08 (Kunitz 21g/82games) and 21/22 (JVR 24g/82 games) have anything to do with it. It’s not like this is ancient history, many who played then are still playing now.


For 07/08 for OV, 21/22 for Matthews.

-Ov scored 33% of his goals on the pp
-Ov pp goals were 51% of his EV total
-caps had 346 pp opportunities that season.

-Matthews scored 26% of his goal on the pp
-Matthews pp goals were 36% of his EV total
-leafs had 231 pp opportunities that season.


OV’s pp opportunities were more crucial to his goal totals than for Matthews. league wide PP efficiency is irrelevant.

League wide efficiency going up shows that it’s currently easier to score on the PP than it was in 07-08. This is very likely due to the goalie pad limits because the numbers went up at the same time. Though running 4 forward sets probably helped as well. So if it’s easier to score on the PP today it means that time on the PP is more beneficial than the equivalent time in 07-08. While Ovechkin did benefit from more PP time overall, the advantage wasn’t quite as great as the difference in their ice time would suggest. It’s not the biggest factor in the league scoring differences (that would be ES scoring), but it is one of them.

 

[authentic]

I should have said all factors when it comes to measuring production, so I agree that deployment is a factor is how we measure their relative production. I’m not sure if I agree that his run and gun game should factor into their production comparison, because he was still limiting chances against, and he was doing it with less help. I think Matthews’ season will likely end up better in terms of peak goal scoring, but I still have trouble seeing him quite at the same level as peak Ovechkin as an overall offensive force. But maybe that’s my bias in terms of what I value in players. I still think MacKinnon is a better player than Matthews and Ovechkin did a lot of the same things he does but was a better goal scorer on top of it.

I don’t really disagree with Ovechkin being the better offensive force overall, I said the same in one of my posts just the other day. But being the better goal scorer as an elite two-way center alone has him in the conversation for better overall player. Also not long ago I had MacKinnon as the favourite for the Hart and Art Ross. He’s the only other player besides McDavid that I would say is arguably better than Matthews, you could almost flip a coin on those two at this point.

 

[TDK67]

Is assists don't count for much then Marner is the most over paid player in the league.....or is is Tavares?

Very interesting question. Let me try to translate it as it relates to anything I said:

"If assists don't strawman then strawman is the most over paid strawman in the league...or is it strawman?"

Yea, idk. Really tough to counter that kind of compelling counterpoint to what I originally wrote.

 

[ALine]

So that is a question then, is what, like 36% more opportunity make up for the rise is scoring overall. ( this is just based on their teams opportunities although Pptoi would paint a similar picture, if not more flattering to Matthews).
And if, as you say, it is Ev scoring that largely drive the increase in scoring league wide, is another knock against Ov for needing more pp goals to get to 65.
And in the same vein, if Ev scoring is what is driving up scoring league wide, Matthews is currently is, well exactly the same amount of goals up on number 2 that OV finished with. Shouldn’t number to be closer if league wide Ev and Pp scoring is up.