Auston Matthews 69 goals in 81 games, most goals scored since Lemieux in 1995-96

[NyQuil]

i guess goalie equipment got a little smaller prob helps goalscoring a little but still not like we see 60 goal scorers very often. and it was impressive as hell when Matthews did it the first time but now since Pastrnak and McDavid did it its like i lost its value

I mean, Denis Maruk did it in 1981-1982, along with 136 points, and no one knows who he is.

With Matthews, I'm less impressed by the number itself and more impressed by the lead he has over the next guy.

 

[authentic]

There's always a trade off though.

Goal-scoring may have been lower that year compared to this year, but Ovechkin was still getting nearly 6mins of PP time a game.

Even ignoring adjusted stats altogether, Matthews is simply having a more dominant season thus far, he just needs to finish at a decent pace to put the nail in the peak Ovechkin coffin.

 

[wetcoast]

No, I don’t really care who the argument is against. Everyone has the same opportunities to score as many goals as they can.

Everything else, ice time, powerplay time, linemates, red line, goalies, is all part of the game

If you wanted to argue that goal scoring was way out of whack because 80% of professional hockey players were off fighting a war, that would make sense. For those particular seasons.

But if you’re just arbitrarily choosing two players and two years and saying with confidence that “the player who scored less goals is a better goal scorer because players scored less goals” then you’re in a fantasy land.

You need parameters, weighting of those parameters, you need thousands of variables …. Or you can just concede that all of those are part of the game that all professionals play, conditions that vary for players, and just count the goals

There’s no rational reason an oveckin goal in 2014 should count as 1.35 2024 goals

1 goal = 1 goal

As it has for a hundred years. No need to galaxy brain it

Never mind it's obvious that you aren't interested in a serious discussion here.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I agree that it's difficult to separate.

One could argue that players have never been more skilled, simply because the skillset keeps expanding. And that this will likely continue going forward.

When it comes to talent though, it's a bit murky, because that talent is also between the pipes, and on the blueline.

Either goalies have suddenly become terrible despite all of the advancements in goalie instruction at increasingly younger ages, or there's something else at play here.

I think there are too many players in the league nowadays for "more offensive talent" or "less defensive talent" to be a major driver in what happens with goals per game.

It's more likely in my mind to see sweeping changes, like the crackdown on obstruction that led to the post-DPE era (more PPs initially, less hooking now, which is to the detriment of defensive play), the proliferation of composite sticks (which have no defensive advantage), or the shrinking of goalie equipment (which can only benefit scorers).

Meanwhile, the post-80s DPE came about with fewer and fewer enforcers playing regular shifts on the bottom lines, the emergence of better skating bottom-six players specializing in defence, the introduction of the trap across the league, the increasing size of goalie equipment, and the reliance on obstruction (see: can opener) as a legitimate defensive approach.

I see that some people like the big round numbers without context, and that's fine. I just prefer to interpret those numbers with a little more context.

For goalie talent imo it’s less that goalies are getting worse and more that the difference between the top and average goalie is shrinking. Every team seems to want the 6’4 solid fundamentals low maintenance guy and avoid the 5’10 elite reflexes acrobatic hothead. Which kind of goes back to the improved skating + improved systems argument, if I can reliably get my team to funnel the opponents chances into predictable areas, I just need a competent big Michelin man ready to absorb those pucks, not the second coming of Roy to bail me out constantly.

On top of that teams have been violently cutting out low% shots, the point slapshot disappeared almost entirely because of how often it loses the zone and causes odd man rushes against and it’s been replaced with snap shots from closer in designed to aim for tips not corners.

Just taking a random year, 08-09, the top 5 teams were averaging 10-12 HD chances a game, 1.5-1.65 HD goals, around a .820 HD sv%, .920 sv% on all shots.

This year it’s 12-14 HD chances, 1.6-1.8 HD goals, .850 HD sv%, .905 on all shots.

Yes the equipment shrinking plays a role obviously but even if it didn’t you would expect save% to drop as coaches continue to optimize how they play offense. Not in terms of more goals being scored but how many shots they need to spam at the net to get those goals. Just cutting out 5 point shots a game can turn a .933 off 2 goals on 30 shots into a .920 2 on 25 without the goalie performing any worse on the actual scoring chances.

 

[wetcoast]

One of my favorite adjusted stats are the 62 goals Ovechkin is given credit for in 2012-2013 when in reality, it was a 48 game season where he potted 32 goals.

Folks will walk around and tell you with a straight face how real adjusted stats are. Yeah, when a formula pretends a full season occurred when it didn’t and generously double a real life goal total, while stripping away unexplainable dominance (Gretzky) in order to make it more ordinary, I guess the desired results can always be acquired.

We’re watching a player right now with a 33% lead on the runner up. We need to adjust that. We need to adjust that. We need to…

You 2 should go make a club or something.

Say the NHL suddenly decides to make a season 160 games and and tons of guys start scoring 100 goals+/season?

Are they better goal scorers, well the answer with you 2 seems to be well a goal is a goal right?

Dennis Maruk is obviously a better goal scorer than anyone who played in the NHL before expansion.

See this is the problem when people make absolute stands on positions that make zero sense.

I used the money conversion example as it's easy and most 5th graders would understand that it's all money but the conversion rate does matter.

But you have already tipped your hat in that you don't like that it "helps" 2 certain players when in fact it adjusts for everyone equally.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I mean, Denis Maruk did it in 1981-1982, along with 136 points, and no one knows who he is.

With Matthews, I'm less impressed by the number itself and more impressed by the lead he has over the next guy.

the main argument here comes from someone saying that matthews scoring 60 is alot less impressive than ovechkin scoring 50 and that poster also believes matthews at 52 should only be considered about 40 of Ovechkin's 50+

just funny how some posters keep pushing the bar further and further. rest of all of this really doesnt matter. but either way people shouldnt view these seasons as a joke when they are incredibly difficult to do even if scoring is up.

 

[wetcoast]

Expansion absolutely has an effect on league wide scoring

So what?

A goal is a goal why would anyone care if league wide scoring changed........

 

[NyQuil]

So what?

A goal is a goal why would anyone care if league wide scoring changed........

Virtually every top player of a certain age had a career year in 1992-1993 but that was because they were much more talented in that one season.

21 players hit 100 points that year.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Club 50

There are currently 7 NHL forwards with 50+ points and one of 50+ blocked shots or 50+ takeaways.

Matthews has 50+ points, 50+ goals, 50+ blocked shots and 50+ takeaways.

 

[Strangle]

Never mind it's obvious that you aren't interested in a serious discussion here.

What is the serious discussion? Is it about how 65 goals is actually better than 92? Are you going to explain all the cool nu-math to prove it?

So what?

A goal is a goal why would anyone care if league wide scoring changed........

There is a difference between an explanation and changing goal totals.

One is based on reality and the other is fantasy island

 

[mobilus]

I mean, Denis Maruk did it in 1981-1982, along with 136 points, and no one knows who he is.

I know who he is. He came to one of my kids' Atom team practices back in the '00s to do some shooting drills. The man still had a wicked wrist shot.

 

[NyQuil]

Club 50

There are currently 7 NHL forwards with 50+ points one of 50+ blocked shots or 50+ takeaways.

Matthews has 50+ points, 50+ goals, 50+ blocked shots and 50+ takeaways.

There are only 7 guys with 50+ takeaways. That's really what the club is.

Barzal - 64
Draisaitl - 63
Stone - 62
Matthews - 59
Nylander - 59
Malkin - 58
McDavid - 57

Good group of guys though.

 

[mobilus]

There are only 7 guys with 50+ takeaways. That's really what the club is.

Barzal - 64
Draisaitl - 63
Stone - 62
Matthews - 59
Nylander - 59
Malkin - 58
McDavid - 57

A takeaway can happen anywhere on the ice, a blocked shot is defensive zone only. It's not an irrelevant stat.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

There are only 7 guys with 50+ takeaways. That's really what the club is.

Barzal - 64
Draisaitl - 63
Stone - 62
Matthews - 59
Nylander - 59
Malkin - 58
McDavid - 57

Good group of guys though.

Not entirely.

 

[NyQuil]

A takeaway can happen anywhere on the ice, a blocked shot is defensive zone only. It's not an irrelevant stat.

I never said that it was.

More so the fact that all of the other statistics are superfluous because the Club members in the takeaway category isn't a subset of guys, but literally the only 7 guys with 50+ takeaways.

Meanwhile, for 50+ points, there's 52 guys, for 50+ blocked shots, there's 189 guys.

In this current scenario, all you have to do is look at the takeaway stat to determine who the members of the 50 Club are.

 

[wetcoast]

What is the serious discussion? Is it about how 65 goals is actually better than 92? Are you going to explain all the cool nu-math to prove it?

So Gretzky seems to be the issue here not actual logic?

So Maruk was almost as good a goal scorer (60-65) as Ovechkin in his best year and better every year other than 07-08?

There is a difference between an explanation and changing goal totals.

One is based on reality and the other is fantasy island

Here seems be another problem you are conflating.

No one is changing goal totals they are being adjusted in comparison to determine actual value.

Are adjusted stats perfect nope but they are 10X more use full than simply using counting stats.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I never said that it was.

More so the fact that all of the other statistics are superfluous because the takeaway category isn't a subset of guys, but literally the only 7 guys with 50+ takeaways.

Meanwhile, for 50+ points, there's 52 guys, for 50+ blocked shots, there's 189 guys.

In this current scenario, all you have to do is look at the takeaway stat to determine who the members of the 50 Club are.

Nope. MacKinnon and Trochek are in it. Malkin is not. Matthews is in 4, no one else gets by 2.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

It intrigues me how people use GP and era adjusted but are allergic to per 60.

 

[NyQuil]

Nope. MacKinnon and Trochek are in it. Malkin is not. Matthews is in 4, no one else gets by 2.

Weird, NHL.com has MacKinnon with 29 takeaways.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[Video Nasty]

You 2 should go make a club or something.

Say the NHL suddenly decides to make a season 160 games and and tons of guys start scoring 100 goals+/season?

Are they better goal scorers, well the answer with you 2 seems to be well a goal is a goal right?

Dennis Maruk is obviously a better goal scorer than anyone who played in the NHL before expansion.

See this is the problem when people make absolute stands on positions that make zero sense.

I used the money conversion example as it's easy and most 5th graders would understand that it's all money but the conversion rate does matter.

But you have already tipped your hat in that you don't like that it "helps" 2 certain players when in fact it adjusts for everyone equally.

You have this habit of going to extremes when someone doesn’t agree with your stance.

Let’s just circle back and agree that I think the current way of adjusting stats needs a lot of work, I certainly don’t have a solution, and I wish there was a way we could all have real life simulations that we would all somehow accept ala Rocky and Dixon in Rocky Balboa.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Weird, NHL.com has MacKinnon with 29 takeaways.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

......and 51 blocked shots. Trocheck has 56. Malkin does not have 50 points.

 

[NyQuil]

......and 51 blocked shots. Trocheck has 56. Malkin does not have 50 points.

Oh, I thought you had to have all of the stats.

Malkin only has 43 points so you’re right.

 

[mobilus]

More so the fact that all of the other statistics are superfluous because the takeaway category isn't a subset of guys, but literally the only 7 guys with 50+ takeaways.

Meanwhile, for 50+ points, there's 52 guys, for 50+ blocked shots, there's 189 guys.

In this current scenario, all you have to do is look at the takeaway stat to determine who the members of the 50 Club are.

For blocked shots just amongst forwards, where are Barzal, Draisaitl, Stone, Matthews, Nylander, Malkin and McDavid on the list?

3rd: Matthews with 62
18th: MacKinnon with 51
57th: Stone with 40
119: Barzal with 30
145: Malkin with 28
214: McDavid with 23
270: Nylander with 19
304: Draisaitl with 17

 

[NyQuil]

For blocked shots just amongst forwards, where are Barzal, Draisaitl, Stone, Matthews, Nylander, Malkin and McDavid on the list?

3rd: Matthews with 62
18th: MacKinnon with 51
57th: Stone with 40
119: Barzal with 30
145: Malkin with 28
214: McDavid with 23
270: Nylander with 19
304: Draisaitl with 17

Yeah I get it now.

 

[tapi]

the main argument here comes from someone saying that matthews scoring 60 is alot less impressive than ovechkin scoring 50 and that poster also believes matthews at 52 should only be considered about 40 of Ovechkin's 50+

just funny how some posters keep pushing the bar further and further. rest of all of this really doesnt matter. but either way people shouldnt view these seasons as a joke when they are incredibly difficult to do even if scoring is up.

Some haters, and also Ovi fanboys, will find any excuse, while conveniently disregarding G/60 and the fact Ovi played 7mins on the PP consistently. The reality is of course that AM34 has already surpassed the best level Ovi ever reached at least two times (whole seasons), while outperforming Ovi in general and being a way more versatile scorer, not so reliant on being on the PP for insane amounts of time. Thus we can assert Matthews is the best goal scorer of all-time after Gretzky and Mario.