Auston Matthews 69 goals in 81 games, most goals scored since Lemieux in 1995-96

Bear of Bad News

"The Worst Guy on the Site" - user feedback
Sep 27, 2005
14,280
29,477
No, I don’t really care who the argument is against.

So you insist, repeatedly. It doesn't hold water.

The "galaxy brain" personal attack doesn't fly very well either - if you're repeatedly advocating for folks to "think less" about something, that should tell you that there's a motivation involved.

If you're right, then there's no harm in thinking about it more. Right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bossram

AvroArrow

Registered User
Jun 10, 2011
18,953
20,237
Toronto
No, your motivation is entirely relevant.

Everyone has biases
, and it's the ones who shout "I'M THE OBJECTIVE ONE AND AM UNBIASED!!" that you need to pay particular attention to.

These are also the people who insist "don't bother looking into my motivations because it's not relevant".
Then there are people who continually throw shade against a specific team, but try and preach to others about motivations and biases having an influence.
 

Arthur Morgan

Registered User
Jul 6, 2016
8,990
6,285
Toronto
www.youtube.com
I mean they really dont make any sense. whos to say the "adjusted stats" are even right with their math? its just a bunch of nonsense that anyone can just make up to make their point of view seem more correct.

there are just more elite goal scorers in the league now then there were in the early 00's. training and equipment hasnt changed that much in the past 20 years compared to the 20 before it
 

Arthur Morgan

Registered User
Jul 6, 2016
8,990
6,285
Toronto
www.youtube.com
So if Matthews had 50 goals in a season where the goals per game was 2.5 and 50 in a season where the goals per game was 5.

You would consider those seasons equal?
logic here is even 70 wouldnt really be all that impressive if you compare him to Ovechkins 65 since goalscoring id down. he would need 75-82 to match Ovechkins dominance

so this 52 is more like 40
 

Strangle

Leafs Smol PP
May 4, 2009
9,757
6,997
You've made it perfectly clear that you don't want to endanger your longstanding unbiased purely objective opinion on this, yes.

you’re trying really hard to make this about me

So if Matthews had 50 goals in a season where the goals per game was 2.5 and 50 in a season where the goals per game was 5.

You would consider those seasons equal?

50 goals is 50 goals
 

Bear of Bad News

"The Worst Guy on the Site" - user feedback
Sep 27, 2005
14,280
29,477
Then there are people who continually throw shade against a specific team, but try and preach to others about motivations and biases having an influence.

I'm certainly biased. Which team are you suggesting that I throw shade at continually?

(I've been accused of being a fan of about 25 teams at this point.)
 

Strangle

Leafs Smol PP
May 4, 2009
9,757
6,997
So you don’t understand adjusted stats, and since you don’t understand them you claim they make no sense and are dumb.

I probably have dozens of posts explaining my thoughts on adjusted stats

Yes, I understand them. They are incredibly simple

No, I don’t think they make any sense in the real world. They don’t do what they claim to do

I don’t want to get bogged down answering this exact same question from the next 20 posters who want to say the same thing you just did.

Just know that adjusted stats aren’t some big mystical mystery of the universe. You take average goals scored from year x and you compare to year y then you assign goal values in fractions of a goal based on the ratio and then you say ‘the player with less goals is a better goal scorer’
 

X66

114-110
Aug 18, 2008
13,585
7,461
logic here is even 70 wouldnt really be all that impressive if you compare him to Ovechkins 65 since goalscoring id down. he would need 75-82 to match Ovechkins dominance

so this 52 is more like 40

There's always a trade off though.

Goal-scoring may have been lower that year compared to this year, but Ovechkin was still getting nearly 6mins of PP time a game.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
99,180
65,512
Ottawa, ON
there are just more elite goal scorers in the league now then there were in the early 00's. training and equipment hasnt changed that much in the past 20 years compared to the 20 before it

That's not really true at all.

Back in 2018:
Contrary to popular belief, the NHL has been shrinking goalie equipment for at least the past dozen years. Pads were narrowed, shortened, then shortened again. Both glove and blocker had their total surface area reduced. Jerseys were required to follow the form of the goaltender’s body. The height of the stick’s paddle was trimmed. Pants were narrowed.


Back in 2011:
Over the last decade, the game of hockey has changed significantly, especially due to advances in composite hockey stick technology. This paper discusses the progression of hockey stick composition throughout the years as well as important properties of hockey sticks and how the composition of sticks affects these properties. It also examines the slap shot, the most explosive action performed in hockey, and how it displays these stick properties. Composite hockey sticks are ideal because they combine many of the beneficial properties of other stick compositions, but there is still a significant amount of improvement that can be made to the technology.

And still continuing.


The NHL embraced a lot of these equipment changes because of the downward trend in goal scoring.

The 80's had inflated offensive stats and the DPE had depressed offensive stats.

Now we're somewhere in the middle, and I think it has more to do with the systems/officiating/equipment in place than the talent level.
 
Last edited:

Strangle

Leafs Smol PP
May 4, 2009
9,757
6,997
Haven’t we been over this countless times? I understand different scoring eras, I understand the human need to try and compare players from different times, I understand that adjusted stats in some fashion have their place.

I’m commenting on the slavish devotion to them, as if they are concrete fact, as if they actually happened.

No matter how much it hurts, no matter how much Crosby and Ovechkin need to be forever protected in their bubbles, players before and after have done and are doing amazing things.

For the last time (this week probably), the concept of adjusted stats are not something difficult to wrap my head around.

But there’s many pieces of context they don’t account for and it’s beyond tiresome when no one before and after Crosby and Ovechkin who can just be given the credit they are due.

Crosby and Ovechkin’s era’s were so much more dominate than the ones that came before and the one that has come immediately afterwards that they need a whole new section of mathematical theory to prove how great they were
 

solidmotion

Registered User
Jun 5, 2012
626
319
The 80's had inflated offensive stats and the DPE had depressed offensive stats.

Now we're somewhere in the middle, and I think it has more to do with the systems/officiating/equipment in place than the talent level.
it's expansion/talent dilution. vegas joined the league in 2017-18 and seattle in 2021-22. average team scoring jumped from 2.77 to 2.97 goals/game in 2017-18, stayed close to that level for a few years and then jumped to 3.14 goals/game in 2021-22. NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com
 
  • Like
Reactions: saffronleaf

Martin Skoula

Registered User
Oct 18, 2017
12,220
17,202
That's not really true at all.

Back in 2018:



Back in 2011:


And still continuing.


The NHL embraced a lot of these equipment changes because of the downward trend in goal scoring.

The 80's had inflated offensive stats and the DPE had depressed offensive stats.

Now we're somewhere in the middle, and I think it has more to do with the systems/officiating/equipment in place than the talent level.

I don’t think you can separate systems, equipment, and talent level in a meaningful way. Systems matter more because there are very few truly bad skaters in the league now, skating talent has improved which means at the low end you have players who can execute the demands of the system more reliably and at the high end you need a good system to contain the McDavid/MacKinnons of the league. Composite sticks made new types of talent possible like Matthews/Bedard’s drag shot that changes angles and point of release several feet across in full speed using defenders as screens. The rise of snap shots in general opened up new skill sets and we have arguably a golden age of hand-eye coordination net front deflection plays that have killed the classic booming point shot. This forces systems to change, which opens up new niches of talent, which forces equipment adjustments, which forces systems to change, which forces..
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Gr8 Dane

Video Nasty

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
5,744
9,982
Crosby and Ovechkin’s era’s were so much more dominate than the ones that came before and the one that has come immediately afterwards that they need a whole new section of mathematical theory to prove how great they were

One of my favorite adjusted stats are the 62 goals Ovechkin is given credit for in 2012-2013 when in reality, it was a 48 game season where he potted 32 goals.

Folks will walk around and tell you with a straight face how real adjusted stats are. Yeah, when a formula pretends a full season occurred when it didn’t and generously double a real life goal total, while stripping away unexplainable dominance (Gretzky) in order to make it more ordinary, I guess the desired results can always be acquired.

We’re watching a player right now with a 33% lead on the runner up. We need to adjust that. We need to adjust that. We need to…
 
  • Like
Reactions: Strangle

Arthur Morgan

Registered User
Jul 6, 2016
8,990
6,285
Toronto
www.youtube.com
That's not really true at all.
well why not? clearly there's more elite scorers right now then back then. we have had only two 60 goal scorers at that time. have the equipment and training changed much the past 10-20 years compared from the 80s to now? training and equipment is fairly close now to what it was 20 years ago.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
99,180
65,512
Ottawa, ON
I don’t think you can separate systems, equipment, and talent level in a meaningful way. Systems matter more because there are very few truly bad skaters in the league now, skating talent has improved which means at the low end you have players who can execute the demands of the system more reliably and at the high end you need a good system to contain the McDavid/MacKinnons of the league. Composite sticks made new types of talent possible like Matthews/Bedard’s drag shot that changes angles and point of release several feet across in full speed using defenders as screens. The rise of snap shots in general opened up new skill sets and we have arguably a golden age of hand-eye coordination net front deflection plays that have killed the classic booming point shot. This forces systems to change, which opens up new niches of talent, which forces equipment adjustments, which forces systems to change, which forces..

I agree that it's difficult to separate.

One could argue that players have never been more skilled, simply because the skillset keeps expanding. And that this will likely continue going forward.

When it comes to talent though, it's a bit murky, because that talent is also between the pipes, and on the blueline.

Either goalies have suddenly become terrible despite all of the advancements in goalie instruction at increasingly younger ages, or there's something else at play here.

I think there are too many players in the league nowadays for "more offensive talent" or "less defensive talent" to be a major driver in what happens with goals per game.

It's more likely in my mind to see sweeping changes, like the crackdown on obstruction that led to the post-DPE era (more PPs initially, less hooking now, which is to the detriment of defensive play), the proliferation of composite sticks (which have no defensive advantage), or the shrinking of goalie equipment (which can only benefit scorers).

Meanwhile, the post-80s DPE came about with fewer and fewer enforcers playing regular shifts on the bottom lines, the emergence of better skating bottom-six players specializing in defence, more equal icetime distribution, the introduction of the trap across the league, the increasing size of goalie equipment, and the reliance on obstruction (see: can opener) as a legitimate defensive approach.

I see that some people like the big round numbers without context, and that's fine. I just prefer to interpret those numbers with a little more context.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Guinnes66

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
99,180
65,512
Ottawa, ON
training and equipment is fairly close now to what it was 20 years ago.

You don't think there have been radical changes in equipment in the last 20 years?

In the previous 20 years, there were still guys using wooden sticks.

Aluminum shafted sticks like Gretzky's Easton looked cool but added no real advantage to shooting.

1708719896417.png


Was Giguere 400 pounds? It certainly looks it in the early 2000s. That trapper could intercept signals from space.

Here's Demko today:

1708719978255.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast

Arthur Morgan

Registered User
Jul 6, 2016
8,990
6,285
Toronto
www.youtube.com
You don't think there have been radical changes in equipment in the last 20 years?

In the previous 20 years, there were still guys using wooden sticks.

Aluminum shafted sticks like Gretzky's Easton looked cool but added no real advantage to shooting.

View attachment 824331

Was Giguere 400 pounds? It certainly looks it in the early 2000s. That trapper could intercept signals from space.

Here's Demko today:

View attachment 824332
i guess goalie equipment got a little smaller prob helps goalscoring a little but still not like we see 60 goal scorers very often. and it was impressive as hell when Matthews did it the first time but now since Pastrnak and McDavid did it its like i lost its value
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad