Auston Matthews 69 goals in 81 games, most goals scored since Lemieux in 1995-96

[Divine]

Hull was born in Canada, but he is American.

He's both. People consider him American because he tried to make team Canada and couldn't and therefore played for the U.S.

If you had to categorize him into one, Canadian makes the most sense because he has more ties to Canada. Born in Canada, dad is a HOF NHLer who was Canadian but married an American lady. If his mom wasn't American, he would not have any American in him. If his dad wasn't Canadian, he could still be considered Canadian because he was born in Canada. I don't know you can say the son of Hall of Famer Canadian NHLer Bobby Hull is 100% American.

Hull is the reason the NHL started using American born because they can't say he's not an American when he identifies as one now.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

We’ve seen three in the past two seasons and will see another this year.

Ovechkin was the only player to hit 50 goals between 13-14 and 17-18 and he did it three times.

I never said 60 isn’t still extremely difficult to do. Perhaps you shouldn’t jump to conclusions that anything that isn’t blowing smoke up Matthews’ mooning ass is considered criticism. I’m suggesting that if Matthews is going to be considered the greatest goal scorer over Ovechkin, as was the conversation, he might not need as many Rockets, but that scoring 60 isn’t automatically better than Ovechkin winning the Rocket with a massive lead while scoring 50+ in lower scoring seasons.

Matthew’s leads are far bigger than people realize. It’s kind of like that stat above where he is tied with OV and several others are close……until you look at the 200 less GP.

 

[Leaf Fans]

He's both. People consider him American because he tried to make team Canada and couldn't and therefore played for the U.S.

If you had to categorize him into one, Canadian makes the most sense because he has more ties to Canada. Born in Canada, dad is a HOF NHLer who was Canadian but married an American lady. If his mom wasn't American, he would not have any American in him. If his dad wasn't Canadian, he could still be considered Canadian because he was born in Canada. I don't know you can say the son of Hall of Famer Canadian NHLer Bobby Hull is 100% American.

Hull is the reason the NHL started using American born because they can't say he's not an American when he identifies as one now.

All true. However, he went to play NCAA hockey in Minny and never returned to Canada. At the risk of being called woke, he identifies as American.

 

[Divine]

All true. However, he went to play NCAA hockey in Minny and never returned to Canada. At the risk of being called woke, he identifies as American.

Yeah, I'm sure he does - but he tried to play for team Canada. Team Canada didn't think he was good enough and then he represented America. He even said that he doesn't feel more American after representing America, but he just wanted to play hockey.

Article clipped from Calgary Herald

Clipping found in Calgary Herald published in Calgary, Alberta, Canada on 12/28/1986.

www.newspapers.com

He was also allowed past hockey's immigration because Team Canada simply didn't want him. "I was never approached by Team Canada. Team USA called me last year and asked me to play at the World championships," explained Hull, who was signed by the Flames during the 1985-86 NHL playoffs. "I don't feel more like an American than a Canadian. I just want to play."

Funnily enough though, he represented Canada before he represented America but because it wasn't an IIHF sanctioned event, he was allowed to switch. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be having this debate. The biggest aspect of the he's American debate is that he played for America, which wouldn't have been possible if the first event he represented was sanctioned.

Long story short, he identifies it as American, there's a big asterisk beside it because he first played for Canada and switched to America when Canada didn't select him. The NHL avoids getting into the debate by saying American-born.

 

[Regal]

Matthew’s leads are far bigger than people realize. It’s kind of like that stat above where he is tied with OV and several others are close……until you look at the 200 less GP.

This lead is huge don’t get me wrong. It’s one of the best years so far all time. The discussion was about if he gets 60 in another year but doesn’t win the Rocket

 

[Slimmy]

okay well if scoring is up now, then why have we only seen two 60 goal scorers? shouldn't we have like ALOT more if its so much easier to score now? scoring 60 is still extremely difficult to do,

It's still difficult. Its still impressive. But, its also easier to accomplish now when we have entered a new high scoring era.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

We’ve seen three in the past two seasons and will see another this year.

Ovechkin was the only player to hit 50 goals between 13-14 and 17-18 and he did it three times.

I never said 60 isn’t still extremely difficult to do. Perhaps you shouldn’t jump to conclusions that anything that isn’t blowing smoke up Matthews’ mooning ass is considered criticism. I’m suggesting that if Matthews is going to be considered the greatest goal scorer over Ovechkin, as was the conversation, he might not need as many Rockets, but that scoring 60 isn’t automatically better than Ovechkin winning the Rocket with a massive lead while scoring 50+ in lower scoring seasons.

still waiting, how many more goals should Matthews, Pastrnak or McDavid put in to make up then?

It's still difficult. Its still impressive. But, its also easier to accomplish now when we have entered a new high scoring era.

I dont see it being any easier. all these players are extremely good but we havent had anyone else really get all that close even though scoring is up. I mean seriously like how many more goals would it take to get on the same level?

 

[JukofYork]

why do you have to be ridiculous?

Why do you have to be upset? I think he is the best player in the NHL. Get over it Sandy

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

He's both. People consider him American because he tried to make team Canada and couldn't and therefore played for the U.S.

If you had to categorize him into one, Canadian makes the most sense because he has more ties to Canada. Born in Canada, dad is a HOF NHLer who was Canadian but married an American lady. If his mom wasn't American, he would not have any American in him. If his dad wasn't Canadian, he could still be considered Canadian because he was born in Canada. I don't know you can say the son of Hall of Famer Canadian NHLer Bobby Hull is 100% American.

Hull is the reason the NHL started using American born because they can't say he's not an American when he identifies as one now.

That’s kind of like my buddy who is Tony Twist’s son. He was born in Canada, but has lived basically his whole life in America. After DUIs he’s probably going to get deported this year, and he doesn’t know what to do.

 

[DRW895]

Poor Kevin Stevens

 

[Schennanigans]

Even his ppg ratio is great. He can go pointless the rest of year and be close to a ppg.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Is this better than peak OV?

 

[Strangle]

Stutzle > Matthews last summer.

Never forget.

I wish they’d unlock that thread, I’m not done making the haters hold their L’s

So many confidently incorrect people in that poll

 

[Divine]

Is this better than peak OV?

Debateable.

Matthews fans argue he's at a higher GPG rate.
Ovechkin fans argue Ovi played in a lower scoring era.
Matthews fans counter with Ovi played 2 mins per game more on the PP than Matthews (over 3 hours per season more)
Ovechkin fans counter with Ovi had worse linemates

And it keeps going and going.

The fact he's in the conversation with peak Ovechkin is crazy though because he plays centre and has to do a lot more than Ovechkin did (face-offs, defence)

 

[Regal]

okay so how many more goals should Matthews, Pastrnak or McDavid put in to make up then? just seems like your pushing the goal posts here 3 players put 60 in since Stammer and before him Ovechkin. I dont think this is holding up as much as you think it does. very very very low amount of players hitting or exceeding 60.

this thread isn't to say Matthews will finish his career with more goals but more so if it's possible. and the pace he's going at literally makes this conversation possible.

yes he has a long way to go. but his pace and comparing him at the same games played and seeing where Matthews is at. makes it a little interesting does it not?

You’re trying to lengthen the timeline here. We’re looking at 4 times in a 3 year span once Matthews does it this year. It doesn’t matter that it didn’t happen for a bunch of years before that because league scoring has skyrocketed in recent years, and covid shortened the two years before that.

And it’s not just 60 goals, the number of 50 goal scorers and 40 goal scorers has also gone up. If we’re going to compare seasons, we need to look at the scoring environments. When Ovechkin scored 53 in 14-15, league average scoring was 2.67. This year it’s 3.07. Just a basic adjustment to league scoring would put it equivalent to 61 goals this year. But league scoring was depressed at the top of the league those years as well. Ovechkin was 41% better than the average of the rest of the top 10 goalscorers that year. If he was the same lead above the 2-10 goalscorers this year, would put him at 47 goals currently, which means likely 65ish over a full season. I do think that method can be problematic, but I do think using both shows that, while it’s not a huge edge, it is slightly better objectively than scoring 60 today. Roughly somewhere in the low 60s.

I’m also not sure you’re fully realizing what the discussion was about. Two posters were discussing Matthews’ ability to become the GOAT goal scorer over Ovechkin by the time his career is over and one brought up that after this year he’ll still be behind Ovechkin by 6 Rockets, and the other responded that he could lose the Rocket and still have a better year than some of Ovechkin’s, using the example of Pasta scoring 65 and Matthews scoring 60. I agreed with the sentiment that Matthews doesn’t have to necessarily win the same number of Rockets because not all Rockets are the same but added that I don’t think 60 today is necessarily is better than some of Ovechkin’s Rockets in the later half of his career, with my reasoning based on the numbers above. It would admittedly be similar though.

Also, none of this is related to this season where he’s going to very likely surpass 60 by a decent amount. So your whole “how many more goals?” question doesn’t make sense to me. Are you thinking I mean anywhere in the 60s and not 60 exactly?

If we’re looking at the 14-15 season I mention above, McDavid scored 64, not 60, so I would consider his year a bit ahead. Pasta, scored 61, so it would be pretty similar. Matthews scored 60 but it was in 73 games, so I’d consider it a bit ahead as well. Though all of them would be pretty close. Matthews in 20-21 I’d also consider around the same level though obviously a shortened year. All of them would also be above Rocket years like Crosby in 16-17.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

You’re trying to lengthen the timeline here. We’re looking at 4 times in a 3 year span once Matthews does it this year. It doesn’t matter that it didn’t happen for a bunch of years before that because league scoring has skyrocketed in recent years, and covid shortened the two years before that.

And it’s not just 60 goals, the number of 50 goal scorers and 40 goal scorers has also gone up. If we’re going to compare seasons, we need to look at the scoring environments. When Ovechkin scored 53 in 14-15, league average scoring was 2.67. This year it’s 3.07. Just a basic adjustment to league scoring would put it equivalent to 61 goals this year. But league scoring was depressed at the top of the league those years as well. Ovechkin was 41% better than the average of the rest of the top 10 goalscorers that year. If he was the same lead above the 2-10 goalscorers this year, would put him at 47 goals currently, which means likely 65ish over a full season. I do think that method can be problematic, but I do think using both shows that, while it’s not a huge edge, it is slightly better objectively than scoring 60 today. Roughly somewhere in the low 60s.

I’m also not sure you’re fully realizing what the discussion was about. Two posters were discussing Matthews’ ability to become the GOAT goal scorer over Ovechkin by the time his career is over and one brought up that after this year he’ll still be behind Ovechkin by 6 Rockets, and the other responded that he could lose the Rocket and still have a better year than some of Ovechkin’s, using the example of Pasta scoring 65 and Matthews scoring 60. I agreed with the sentiment that Matthews doesn’t have to necessarily win the same number of Rockets because not all Rockets are the same but added that I don’t think 60 today is necessarily is better than some of Ovechkin’s Rockets in the later half of his career, with my reasoning based on the numbers above. It would admittedly be similar though.

Also, none of this is related to this season where he’s going to very likely surpass 60 by a decent amount. So your whole “how many more goals?” question doesn’t make sense to me.

Im not reading all of this I asked a simple question. how many more goals would Matthews, Pastrnak or McDavid have to score to get on the same level as Ovechkin?

there has to be a number if 60 doesnt come close then what does?

 

[Regal]

Im not reading all of this I asked a simple question. how many more goals would Matthews, Pastrnak or McDavid have to score to get on the same level as Ovechkin?

there has to be a number if 60 doesnt come close then what does?

Where the f*** did I say that?

If you want an answer you can read it. It’s in there. Otherwise go f*** yourself. I’ve usually seen you as a level headed poster so I’m not sure what pissed in your cheerios today

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Where the f*** did I say that?

no but your basically saying its not as impressive as Ovechkins 50+ goal seasons. so how many more do they need to get on the same level?

 

[Regal]

no but your basically saying its not as impressive as Ovechkins 50+ goal seasons. so how many more do they need to get on the same level?

I said it wasn’t necessarily better than his 50+ goal seasons where he won the Rocket. Ie. it’s not as simple as just saying 60>53. If you want to read it, it’s there. Ovechkin’s 14-15 for example where he scored 53 is equivalent to around the low 60s imo

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I said it wasn’t necessarily better than his 50+ goal seasons where he won the Rocket. Ie. it’s not as simple as just saying 60>53. If you want to read it, it’s there. Ovechkin’s 14-15 for example where he scored 53 is equivalent to around the low 60s imo

I also never said it was better either but what would it take for it to get to the same level? I mean if 60 really isnt that great anymore since scoring is up then would it be 66? or is 70 the number needed now? I mean Ovechkin scored 65 in a lower scoring era so maybe 70 is too low as well right?

like f*** dude. these 60 goal seasons are still rare as hell. we have 3 incredible talents that managed to hit it but no one else is. just shows how incredible their goal scoring is/can be. no one else is doing it.

just trying to push the goalposts further and further to make Ovechkin seem untouchable

 

[Strangle]

I'm not denying that he doesn't have a shot. McDavid also has a shot at breaking Gretzky's Ross record... doesn't mean it's anywhere near a good shot or reasonable.

It's the way some fans are acting as if it's a done deal or very likely. Matthews has statistically his best ages behind him, and still needs 6 more rockets after this season. Not that it's not possible, but it's extremely unlikely.

I agree, and I’m a die hard leaf fan. Matthews is the best goal scorer I’ve ever seen on the leafs, by a long shot.

But talk about breaking ovie’s goal scoring record, or Gretzky’s is pointless at this point in his career.

There is just so much that can happen in the next decade that getting up there can’t seriously be discussed for 5-6 more years, at least.

The real conversation to have and to be impressed by is that Matthews is beating Ovechkin’s pace up to this point in his career. Beating out the (arguably) best goal scorer in the world over your first 8 seasons is a massive accomplishment and very exciting for any fan of hockey.

But it’s not the same thing as scoring 900 career goals

 

[Video Nasty]

We’ve seen three in the past two seasons and will see another this year.

Ovechkin was the only player to hit 50 goals between 13-14 and 17-18 and he did it three times.

I never said 60 isn’t still extremely difficult to do. Perhaps you shouldn’t jump to conclusions that anything that isn’t blowing smoke up Matthews’ mooning ass is considered criticism. I’m suggesting that if Matthews is going to be considered the greatest goal scorer over Ovechkin, as was the conversation, he might not need as many Rockets, but that scoring 60 isn’t automatically better than Ovechkin winning the Rocket with a massive lead while scoring 50+ in lower scoring seasons.

We also need to stop blowing extra smoke up Ovechkin’s ass by pretending that he had anything resembling consistent goal scorers as competition. Stamkos was that guy for a brief spell until undone by injuries. That’s it.

I’m impressed by his own consistency, but in the years you outlined, but that era was so weak for top end talent. I would hope an elite goal scorer like Ovechkin could feast on easy mode.

Perry, Pavelski, Pacioretty, Kessel, Nash, Benn, Tarasenko, one offs of Stamkos (ruined), Crosby, and Kane…these are the names filling up most of the top 5s from 2013-2014 through 2017-2018. It’s kind of a joke.

 

[Strangle]

I also never said it was better either but what would it take for it to get to the same level? I mean if 60 really isnt that great anymore since scoring is up then would it be 66? or is 70 the number needed now? I mean Ovechkin scored 65 in a lower scoring era so maybe 70 is too low as well right?

like f*** dude. these 60 goal seasons are still rare as hell. we have 3 incredible talents that managed to hit it but no one else is. just shows how incredible their goal scoring is/can be. no one else is doing it.

just trying to push the goalposts further and further to make Ovechkin seem untouchable

The adjusted stats people are insufferable

The entire premise of adjusted stats is that talent is inherently flat across time and space and the only way to judge a player’s performance is to normalize them against another random year in the league.

It makes literally zero sense.

Talent is not normalized, and there are too many variables to try to calculate what an ‘equivalence’ is in point scoring or goal scoring.

Go and tell people that Ken Dryden is the greatest goalie of all time because he put up the numbers he did in a much higher scoring era than Hasek, and watch everyone’s head explode saying “no, you can’t do that!”

The premise that adjusted stats are based on is inherently and massively flawed. It’s also extremely arbitrary and ignores talent gaps in the league.

you can’t account for every single variable that would cause a rise or fall in league scoring.

TOI? 3 on 3 overtime? No ties? Shootouts? Power play TOI? Line mates? Officiating? Two line pass, etc etc etc

We have the stats that we count and those are the only ones that matter. f*** adjusted stats, they’re idiotic

We also need to stop blowing extra smoke up Ovechkin’s ass by pretending that he had anything resembling consistent goal scorers as competition. Stamkos was that guy for a brief spell until undone by injuries. That’s it.

I’m impressed by his own consistency, but in the years you outlined, but the era was so weak for top end talent. I would hope an elite goal scorer like Ovechkin could feast on easy mode.

Perry, Pavelski, Pacioretty, Kessel, Nash, Benn, Tarasenko, one offs of Stamkos (ruined), Crosby, and Kane…these are the names filling up most of the top 5s from 2013-2014 through 2017-2018. It’s kind of a joke.

Talent in the league is the highest it’s been in 30 years.

That’s why scoring is up, as it should be.

5 on 5 and PP goals count the same.

Lemieux had half his points on the powerplay in 1995-96 so what? He was still the best player in the world.

Goals scored in 2023-2024 also count the same way they did in 2014-2015

 

[Strangle]

All 51 goals in 54 games, thanks to nhl.com

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

I’d like someone to point out to me which of these goals Matthews should have passed on to get an assist instead of just scoring himself

While they’re at it, I’d also like to know which goals wouldn’t have went in in 2014

 

[Regal]

We also need to stop blowing extra smoke up Ovechkin’s ass by pretending that he had anything resembling consistent goal scorers as competition. Stamkos was that guy for a brief spell until undone by injuries. That’s it.

I’m impressed by his own consistency, but in the years you outlined, but that era was so weak for top end talent. I would hope an elite goal scorer like Ovechkin could feast on easy mode.

Perry, Pavelski, Pacioretty, Kessel, Nash, Benn, Tarasenko, one offs of Stamkos (ruined), Crosby, and Kane…these are the names filling up most of the top 5s from 2013-2014 through 2017-2018. It’s kind of a joke.

I agree and made mention of it in the first post that was quoted by that poster. Which is why I agreed with the poster I first quoted that Matthews shouldn’t have to win as many Rocket Richard trophies that some runner ups might be better than some wins. I was just also trying to put the scoring environment also into the equation. If Matthews finishes runner up next year with 60, it’s probably similar but slightly below value to a couple of those wins. If he finishes runner up with 65, I’d consider it better than those wins.