Podcast (Audio) ATKM Director of Player Development, Glen Murray - AVAILABLE NOW
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Peter James Bond II
"Man, we were right there" - De-Luc-sional
- Mar 5, 2015
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Lias had 1 period at LW on line 1 last year....and got injured that game.
Other than that, he has never played with talent.
And yet at 18, at the WJC, he was better than Pettersen, Dahlin, etc...and plus 5 to Pettersen's -1 as well.
He was not ready for the NHL at 18, so what? Had a rough transition and was not mature.
He went back to Sweden and matured and found his game again...the Kings get him and he was finding his game in Ontario. Transitioning to wing as well. 17 PTS in 15 games in Ont 20-21 and 6 goals in 4 games there last year. Who does that? No one. What;s the problem? The problem is, he plays 99.5% of his shifts on line 4 and expected to grind and cycle.
He's shown great hands in the shootout. Makes good plays and has looked good with Vilardi last preseason and then he got injured.
If he ever got 2 weeks in the top 6, he may wel excel. But that won't happen here. Too bad.
Lias Andersson (C/W)  | 7 | 6 | 1 | 7 | 6 | 5 | | | ||||||||
| 2. | 
| Elias Pettersson (C/W)  | 7 | 5 | 2 | 7 | 0 | -1 | | | ||||||
| 3. |
| Alexander Nylander (W/C)  | 7 | 1 | 6 | 7 | 2 | 3 | | | ||||||
| 4. |
| Rasmus Dahlin (D)  | 7 | 0 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 7 |
Herby
How could Blake have known?
I think you (and many others here) place way to much emphasis on a 6-8 game tournament featuring 17-19 year olds. The sample size is just to small. None of you wrote off QB for doing nothing, so why hype up others for having a strong few games?Lias had 1 period at LW on line 1 last year....and got injured that game.
Other than that, he has never played with talent.
And yet at 18, at the WJC, he was better than Pettersen, Dahlin, etc...and plus 5 to Pettersen's -1 as well.
He was not ready for the NHL at 18, so what? Had a rough transition and was not mature.
He went back to Sweden and matured and found his game again...the Kings get him and he was finding his game in Ontario. Transitioning to wing as well. 17 PTS in 15 games in Ont 20-21 and 6 goals in 4 games there last year. Who does that? No one. What;s the problem? The problem is, he plays 99.5% of his shifts on line 4 and expected to grind and cycle.
He's shown great hands in the shootout. Makes good plays and has looked good with Vilardi last preseason and then he got injured.
If he ever got 2 weeks in the top 6, he may wel excel. But that won't happen here. Too bad.
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[TD]Lias Andersson (C/W)
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[TD]Elias Pettersson (C/W)
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[TD]Alexander Nylander (W/C)
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[TD]Rasmus Dahlin (D)
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Lias Andersson had a better WJC than Elias Pettersson,
Alex Turcotte had a better WJC than Cole Caufield and Matt Boldy.
Mikey Anderson had a better WJC than Quinn Hughes.
Ryan Poehling had a better WJC than Jason Robertson and Josh Norris
Morgan Frost had a better WJC than Nick Suzuki
Nic Petan had a better WJC than Brayden Point
The professional numbers just matter so much more. And all Lias has shown is he is a AAAA player for 2 diff organizations.
You have a player who will be 24 right as the season starts who hasn’t been able to stick with 2 different organizations who have seen him play hundreds of professional games, that has to mean more than a few WJC games 4-5 years ago.
I agree about World juniors but aside from that any time I have seen Lias live hes been noticeable. He gets around the ice quick and can be a little chippy. Would love to see him get a chance to stick. He finished the covid season strong enough to be protected from Seattle and had a good camp before injuries.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Unfortunately for Lias, like the others, he got hurt at the worst time. Go figure. He just also happens to be slightly older and out of waiver luck.
I do think this fall will be interesting to see which kid takes a jump forward...but the org has to run with it too. If you love what Gabe and Lias are bringing in the preseason you let them work thru their issues, not banish them to siberia. Especially if you're then going to let a schmuck like AA run loose.
I do think this fall will be interesting to see which kid takes a jump forward...but the org has to run with it too. If you love what Gabe and Lias are bringing in the preseason you let them work thru their issues, not banish them to siberia. Especially if you're then going to let a schmuck like AA run loose.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
World Junior performances only matter when our prospects do well. When they don't, it's just a small sample size tournament.
Herby
How could Blake have known?
But they needed offense, the Kings were one of the least talented offensive rosters in the NHL last year. They didn’t have enough talent on the roster so AA stuck and provided the offense they were looking for. Neither Gabe or Lias were going to provide the 32G/50P pace that AA was able to give the Kings when he was healthy. The Kings brought in a much better player in Fiala, and AA moves on to continue being a for hire mercenary elsewhere.
The fact that two players taken in the top 11 of a draft 4 years ago (at the time) were not able to provide more offense than a mercenary for hire is the big problem, not that the mercenary was brought in to fill that void.
The system is set-up for you to either make it by now or to not. Neither of these guys have been able to make it and they were drafted 5 years ago (and Lias was 3 weeks from being 2016 eligible). They just simply aren’t kids anymore, they are what they are.
I know you are being sarcastic but that really is the truth around here. It’s pretty amazing.
I’ll stick to saying it’s a mostly meaningless tournament whether one kills it or sucks.
Yeah I totally agree, but Kempe had other aspects to his game. He had a noted mean streak and brought size, top-end speed, and other things Fagemo does not. I'm still holding out hope for Fagemo, he's got a wicked shot. And really somebody has to click and take a big step forward, it would be far more useful for us if it was him rather than one of the character-type guys. I think the points for Fagemo are more important as he's a bit more one-dimensional than our other prospects.
Kupari reminds me more of Kempe, really. I think the spots are there for them to push some guys out but they just have to really bring it. I'm an AI fan but if one of them can push I think he would be a prime candidate to move out to gain both assets and cap space. Also, Moore is UFA next year so it's a big year for him. If he regresses that spot may be there too.
I think waivers are overemphasized with the organization as well, it should influence decisions but it seems to be the end-all which probably isn't productive.
I don't know if I would lump Vilardi in with Lias. He's got 37 points in 89 games where Andersson has 17 in 109, he's well over twice as productive. Vilardi actually outproduces Kaliyev and isn't even two years older, and given how long he was out with his back injury he's a lot closer to Kaliyev's development curve. I would say Lias is WYSIWYG, but certainly not Gabe. That said, this has to be a breakout year for Gabe or they will be moving on.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
They were given sporadic icetime and banished to the fringes of society when they missed a stickcheck while AA was able to freewheel and do whatever with no accountability. Slap Vilardi next to Danault for an extended period of time and we'll see what we've really got.
Between injuries and a glass ceiling, we'll never know if they can or can't provide that offense, but they're not going to do it in 8 minutes out of position with an angry coach staring at the back of their necks waiting for a mistake.
I'm not even really 'sticking up' for Lias really, I'm mostly pointing out that even if he HAS it, we wouldn't know because of his injuries and timing and how the Kings use their players no matter how you feel about it. He's probably waiver fodder, but if the guy performs, do you think the org will actually give him a shot? At this point, I'm ultra-skeptical about that. He could have a huge camp and preseason and a couple of bad games on the 4th line seals his fate for the year...
Edit; and I guess without rehashing old arguments that you and I just agree to disagree on--I guess what I'm trying to verbalize is, at this point, I don't truly believe that some of these guys could have a huge camp and have it matter. I think the org has their mind made up on who is doing what based on waivers and seniority. JAD is done. Lias is done. Gabe could have the camp of his life and they won't use that to put him in the top six, they'd use it to trade him. IMO, of course.
The one good byproduct of all this is that hopefully I'm wrong about my feeling above because the Kings are setting up to have the most competitive camp they've ever had and several of these guys are literally fighting for their careers at this time.
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King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,188
- 24,094
I think you put way too much emphasis on people referencing a tournament featuring the world's top young players to discuss the viability as an NHL player.
While all of the players you listed "had a better WJC than..." may not be as good as the other players listed, the point remains that they all bounced back and forth between the NHL and AHL at the absolute worst, if not carving out an NHL career.
And considering how the Kings have admitted they handle prospects, I'm not sure using the Kings slow-boil approach is an indictment against Andersson.
As far as Byfield, I'm not sure if you ignored just how much worse the line was when Byfield was lined up with Jack Quinn, who played for Team Canada's coach in junior. Byfield played far better when he wasn't lined up with him, irrespective of points scored.
It may very well be that Byfield isn't the type of player who elevates the players around him. But the narrative of Byfield "doing nothing" when there was a stark contrast in his play with certain teammates teeters between inconclusive and misleading.
Peter James Bond II
"Man, we were right there" - De-Luc-sional
- Mar 5, 2015
- 3,682
- 5,520
ok. WJC matters not...Glen Murray thought otherwise.
Then, how does Lias go to Ontario and not necessarily have anyone to gel with and
scores 6 goals in 4 games...many of them great goals, one between his legs shot.
How many current Kings could go there and just insert in their lineup and score 6 goals
in 4 games? Maybe Kempe. Maybe Fiala. No one else. And they may only score 3 or 4.
How did Lias do that? He's a goal scorer. He can put the puck in the net, period.
Why doesn't he do that on the Kings? Answer is 8 mins of ice w Lizotte, Lemieux...
No one would score many with them.
If I'm an East Conf team, I'm calling Blake and offering a 5th...and willing to part with a 3rd
for him.
Then, how does Lias go to Ontario and not necessarily have anyone to gel with and
scores 6 goals in 4 games...many of them great goals, one between his legs shot.
How many current Kings could go there and just insert in their lineup and score 6 goals
in 4 games? Maybe Kempe. Maybe Fiala. No one else. And they may only score 3 or 4.
How did Lias do that? He's a goal scorer. He can put the puck in the net, period.
Why doesn't he do that on the Kings? Answer is 8 mins of ice w Lizotte, Lemieux...
No one would score many with them.
If I'm an East Conf team, I'm calling Blake and offering a 5th...and willing to part with a 3rd
for him.
DoktorJeep
Luc and Rob are a waste of time and money.
I rooted for Lias to succeed, like all kids. But I can admit he looked like ass during his NHL minutes this past season. It’s one thing to be invisible playing in the bottom six, aka Kupari, Vilardi, JAD.
Its another thing to get beat, fall down, turn over the puck and chalk up minuses. Aka Lias, QB, Vilardi, etc.
If there are 12 guys for six spots of bottom forward minutes, then the guys who look like tweeners will always lose out to those who project as reliable depth.
Especially when the 24yo depth guys produce about the same as the young guns who can’t put up 10+ goals in 10 minutes a night over 8 games.
Its another thing to get beat, fall down, turn over the puck and chalk up minuses. Aka Lias, QB, Vilardi, etc.
If there are 12 guys for six spots of bottom forward minutes, then the guys who look like tweeners will always lose out to those who project as reliable depth.
Especially when the 24yo depth guys produce about the same as the young guns who can’t put up 10+ goals in 10 minutes a night over 8 games.
Elias Pettersson always had much higher upside than Lias. Dahlin, its not even worth bringing up, he was the best Swedish D prospect since Hedman (maybe even better) and you knew that before his draft year even started. Also, it is precisely Lias Andersson who was a far more mature (especially physically) player at that age. Elias Pettersson was something like 5'10 the year before and had a massive growth spurt in a year, essentially looking like a bambi.
I never saw more than 3rd line or middle six upside at best in Lias and rated him accordingly. Specifically in his draft year his pace and footspeed didn't look at a top 6 level and his skill level gets overrated, I haven't seen a real skill component of his working against better competition consistently, even when he played in SHL. He has a bit of a personality and a grinding mindset, so NA staffers will probably keep giving him chances where another Euro would already be sent packing.
He is another great example of a guy who NA scouts go crazy for thinking he is the next ROR/Mike Richards/great gritty leader with some skill type that eventually turns into Trevor Lewis or even less. It was patently clear for at least second half of that draft year and probably longer that Martin Necas for example was the better prospect.
The fact that there were rumors the Kings were strongly considering Lias at 11 is actually scary. That means the player would be something like top 8 overall on your draft list. For example, we had Lias ranked 7th....in Europe. Our top 4 was EP, Heiskanen, Necas, Liljegren. If you look at that draft, that is pretty close to getting it right. When coming up with the final list, we didn't see Lias as being a strong candidate for those spots.
I never saw more than 3rd line or middle six upside at best in Lias and rated him accordingly. Specifically in his draft year his pace and footspeed didn't look at a top 6 level and his skill level gets overrated, I haven't seen a real skill component of his working against better competition consistently, even when he played in SHL. He has a bit of a personality and a grinding mindset, so NA staffers will probably keep giving him chances where another Euro would already be sent packing.
He is another great example of a guy who NA scouts go crazy for thinking he is the next ROR/Mike Richards/great gritty leader with some skill type that eventually turns into Trevor Lewis or even less. It was patently clear for at least second half of that draft year and probably longer that Martin Necas for example was the better prospect.
The fact that there were rumors the Kings were strongly considering Lias at 11 is actually scary. That means the player would be something like top 8 overall on your draft list. For example, we had Lias ranked 7th....in Europe. Our top 4 was EP, Heiskanen, Necas, Liljegren. If you look at that draft, that is pretty close to getting it right. When coming up with the final list, we didn't see Lias as being a strong candidate for those spots.
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bland
Registered User
- Jul 1, 2004
- 8,242
- 12,606
The WJCs ABSOLUTELY matter. Its an opportunity for young men to play in a high pressure, high visibility international tournament among (usually) the best of their peer group.
It appears that some are confusing them with the be all and end all of talent evaluation. Its just a test, and one taken in front of the largest audience the kids have ever performed in front of at that stage of their careers.
Regarding Byfield, for all the defending we made of his usage and deployment, his performance in that tournament is frankly eerily reminiscent of what we have seen thus far in the NHL: flashes bookended by some ineffectual and lethargic play. At some point a player of his massive ability will need to transcend his given role and force his way forward. Hasn't happened yet.
It appears that some are confusing them with the be all and end all of talent evaluation. Its just a test, and one taken in front of the largest audience the kids have ever performed in front of at that stage of their careers.
Regarding Byfield, for all the defending we made of his usage and deployment, his performance in that tournament is frankly eerily reminiscent of what we have seen thus far in the NHL: flashes bookended by some ineffectual and lethargic play. At some point a player of his massive ability will need to transcend his given role and force his way forward. Hasn't happened yet.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Also being banished to the bottom lines with shit linemates and wondering why he isn't doing 1st line stuff on the 4th line. It is eerily similar, you're right.
So Zegras and Stuezle not scoring a goal in their D+1 WJC years means they arent good, right?
bland
Registered User
- Jul 1, 2004
- 8,242
- 12,606
Peter James Bond II
"Man, we were right there" - De-Luc-sional
- Mar 5, 2015
- 3,682
- 5,520
I am not questioning that Pettersson or Dahlin are not better players than Lias, they clearly are.
I appreciate your level of having scouting experience and always appreciate your posts and have checked out your site.
Lias does lack footspeed, but his skating somewhat improved since he came back to NA.
To me, he has NHL hands that are top 6 capable, I believe, He will just never get the chance.
When he's around the goal or 15 feet out, he's pretty adept at seeing the net and not the goalie
and putting pucks behind them, low, high or between their legs. Trevor Lewis could never put pucks
past a goalie like Lias....but Trevor is the better 200 foot player.
In 3 and a half minutes in this one tournament, Lias has more high end plays and shots, than an Iafallo
3:30 highlight reel OVER 5 YEARS would have. The deflection Lias makes at 1:30....shoot the puck into Iafallo's skates 50 times and maybe once he gets that in the goal - by accident. To deflect a puck that's coming into
your feet and you're on your forehand and top shelf it? Thats skill. Skill that should be on your PP in front of the net. The last 2 years, Brown and Iafallo were in front of the net and were total failures in that role. Brown used to be great there....nothing against him. He used to score about 5-7 deflections and tip ins there.
Herby
How could Blake have known?
Truer words have never been spoken on this forum. The gritty/moderately talented center has replaced the 6'4+ semi-skilled guys who have flaws scouts just refuse to overlook, these guys used to be over-drafted every year 15-20 years ago and some still happen today (Dach)
The problem with the gritty-center thing is that like you said in many cases they turn into much less because the skill level was overrated or the style they play just wears them down very quickly.
Good post btw.
Herby
How could Blake have known?
He compared Elias Pettersson and Lias Andersson using a tournament that both played in 4-5 years ago, we have hundreds of pro games to reference so why are we referencing a tournament where they played 2-4 games vs competent opponents mixed in with games vs countries with extremely minimal talent. With IIHF rules and often times international size rinks.
What you say about Byfield is exactly another reason why the tournament shouldn't be considered as important as it is for prospect evaluation. You have a bunch of kids coming together to play a couple of meaningful games for a new coach and a new system, some will thrive and some won't. But success or failure at this tournament shouldn't be an anointment or condemnation of a prospect, the latter often happening here on HF
I understand where @bland is coming from with it being a test on a big media stage, and he is right, it is the biggest moment most of them will have played at the time, but still people place to much importance. Quinn Hughes and Cole Caufield are without question two of the best players I've seen come through the NCAA in the last 20 years. Hughes had two very meh WJC's, he didn't look like the dominant game controlling player that he was at UM at all at that stage. Caufield was even worse, didn't look like a player who was having an all-time great season for a teenager in the NCAA. Everyone on these forums ofcourse immediately condemns both saying how they were being exposed blah blah blah. Hughes played well in a brief NHL cup of coffee a couple of months later and has been one of the best offensive defenseman in the sport since. Caufield continued to dominate the NCAA and immediately jumped into Montreal's lineup and was a difference making player on the largest stage of them all, a stage that dwarfs an U-20 tournament.
The pre-season rookie tournaments are coming up, there is one every year in Traverse City that I usually try and check out. You guys have the rotating location one on the west coast. I would place more of an emphasis on these tournaments on NHL rinks, with NHL coaches, NHL systems than an IIHF tournament.
Axl Rhoadz
Binky distributor
- Apr 5, 2011
- 5,343
- 3,959
@All The Kings Men , enjoyed getting the Turcotte update...nice job. I'm not even close to giving up on this kid.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I mean I'm high on him anyway but the dude is absolutely built out of shoulder chips...I can't give up on him till he gives up on himself. He's drive personified.
he puts on a happy face about it...but you've GOT to imagine him watching all his friends succeed at the NHL level while he struggles is pissing him off a little bit. just gotta think he's prob putting even more pressure on himself.
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,188
- 24,094
I was referring more to you jumping on anyone making reference to the WJC. Your stance on the WJC is well known - not saying you shouldn't talk about it, but you frequently respond to "at the WJC he..." with "but did you say anything about Byfield? Why do you put so much emphasis on a small tournament?" Instead of examining the overall point that players have good showings on the big stage and thus may be able to offer more than they are being credited for - such as Lias Andersson.
I don't recall anyone saying anything about Quinn Hughes at the WJC. Not saying it's false - just that I don't recall.
Caufield was rightfully eviscerated for his performance, and I was one of the bigger critics. And those criticisms carried over after an outstanding stretch of time when he played in the playoffs. Those criticisms include - Caufield is much more dependent on linemates for success, isn't a play driver, and was getting much more hype than what he was doing.
Last season, during the major slump Caufield went through, he was a complete non-factor for a chunk of the season. Once Martin St. Louis came in, and put him in a better position to succeed, he took off.
Of course, development isn't linear. He has a very good skillset, but he's an extremely streaky player who has high highs and low lows. His disappearing act at the WJC was emblematic of that.
I cannot disagree stronger that rookie tournaments mean more than the WJC. The WJC is the biggest stage where you win or go home. Players have to get their shit together much faster, which thus shows adaptability and individual skill, as opposed to playing against a collection of players where a small subset on each team is actually playing for an NHL roster spot, others for an AHL spot, and sometimes just fillers. I'm not saying it has zero value, but players who elevate their game on the big stage against their best peers in the world mean a LOT more to me than exhibition matches re-labeled as a tournament.
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