Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

[Trapper]

This is not just a Leafs thing. Teams pay players all the time before they win. In every sport.

You can’t pay everyone in a cap world especially after you just paid Tavares and other areas required money.

 

[GQS]

Masai also fired the reigning coach of the year because he didn't meet his standards. Aside from the Maple Leafs, most organizations demand success and won't accept less. Raptors had been building a winning culture for years prior. They already has a conference finals appearance but kept running into an all time great player in LeBron James at the peak of his powers. The team was deep at every position, one of the best defensive groups of the decade, toughness, versatility, intangibles, etc etc

Cmon now. Dwayne Casey being the 'coach of the year' was a joke. That dude SUCKED. Also I've always said that the Raptors could never win a championship with Casey as the coach and Derozan being the 'star' of our team and guess what happened? They won as soon as they got rid of those two.

Also if we're being honest if you look at all the times that the Raps won a playoff series, alot of their opponents were average to trash that they still struggled to beat often because Demar and/or Lowry went into ball chucking hero mode. Thankfully Lowry evolved into being a better player and was less a ball hog when Kawhi was here and they were able to win a championship although it should be noted that the Warriors were missed Durant pretty much the entire series which could've made the difference between winning and losing the championship that year.

The Raptors had the infrastructure, they were missing the top end talent. Maple Leafs have the top end talent but no infrastructure. Any qualified individual should be able to build the infrastructure while the top end talent is the challenge. Dubas was gifted the 20 year old future Hart winner, two elite wingers under the age of 22, then a prime age #1 D and #1 G and still made an absolute mess. It was handed to him on a silver platter and he screwed up almost everything from the day he was hired.

You're comparing basketball vs hockey where as you know one or two stars can dominate and help their team vastly more than a couple of stars on a hockey team. Not a fair comparison at all. This is why the Stanley Cup is practically the hardest championship to win in all of sports and why there's so few repeat winners these days.

Dubas certainly did get some good parts when he took over as GM, but it was far from a perfect team and the Leafs prospect pool was pretty mediocre to say the least and he had at least several bad contracts to deal with. The team that he built today obviously isn't perfect, but its still good and is there really any other 'bad' contracts on this team other than Holl?

Also look at the Leafs prospect pool now compared to what it was before he took over? Vastly improved and we actually have a number of them that might end up being on the team in a few years. Compare that to before he took over and you'd be lucky to find even a couple to be excited over because of how poorly the drafting was. So yes Dubas isn't perfect, but he's still done alot of good in building the team for now and for the future. Its just that not everything he's done has panned out the way he hoped and that's normal.

Bad enough so many people are blind and delusional about the Maple Leafs, now you're dragging the Raptors in to call them lucky in attempt to diminish their success? All because the Leafs are an embarrassment?

There absolutely was a large degree of luck. If Masai doesn't get the Derozan for Kawhi trade done there is no championship period. If Masai doesn't get rid of Casey there isn't a championship most likely. If Kawhi doesn't report to the Raps they don't win. If Kawhi isn't able to stay healthy for the season and the playoffs they don't win. If Durant doesn't get injured and is able to play the entire finals series, the chances of the Raps winning is much less. So yeah there was a significant degree of luck involved in the Raps winning that year when everything came together just right.

What happened the year after when Kawhi jumped ship? They had nearly the same roster and it resulted in a second round loss and the Raps haven't been close to winning another championship since. So congrats to Masai for making one critical trade that panned out great, but at the time there were plenty of question marks surrounding Kawhi and whether he would report and how he would do on the team.

 

[Jojalu]

You can’t pay everyone in a cap world especially after you just paid Tavares and other areas required money.

That I agree with.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Tik tok tik tok da noose is getting tighter

 

[BallardEra]

Dreadful road trip shows Maple Leafs GM Dubas has not built a Cup contender

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I believe as a senior you have to give the people under you the authority to make moves. That being said, you can't run a team worrying about one individual player and what they will do. That is the problem that have been doing for years. This has to be run as a TEAM, TEAM first!


Shanny knows very well. He was part of it. Highly skilled team with lots of grit. He knows. This is Kyles vision,


Don't know but he should know better.

Ok, but he's gone against his own history and instincts. He is responsible for this just like Kyle.

 

[CDN24]

All I see is you making excuses for other teams, while blasting the Leafs for going through the same thing.

It's understandable. You watch and have a much bigger emotional connection with the Leafs, and they are disappointing you. But it's important to take a step back and be objective sometimes.

You used other teams to make excuses for the Leafs.

3 of the teams you listed won cups since Dubas took over. Another won 2 just before. Looks to me like you are trying to use struggles of recent winners to justify your continued position that this team is a contender like them.

I can be objective as I have no emotional connection to this team. My son is a Leafs fan (where did I go wrong) but I am not a fan. I enjoy following the Leafs and following the Shanaplan from afar. It is an interesting experiment but I don't think we can call it a success until we see some playoff success. The team is no better today than the one Dubas inherited. In fact the one he inherited had more potential, he's burned through a lot of that potential.

So objectively, when did the plan go off the rails? In my opinion making Dubas GM who then made the critical error of signing Tavares.

Take your own advice, take a step back and be objective

 

[Dekes For Days]

You used other teams to make excuses for the Leafs.

No, I pointed to other teams to show that what we are going through right now that is causing a complete meltdown on this board is not unique to us. It really doesn't mean all of the apocalyptic things that are being suggested.

Looks to me like you are trying to use struggles of recent winners to justify your continued position that this team is a contender like them.

No, you're trying to use our struggles to differentiate us from "recent winners" and "contenders", even though many of those teams are going through the exact same struggles.

The team is no better today than the one Dubas inherited. In fact the one he inherited had more potential, he's burned through a lot of that potential.

The team has objectively been better and better set up for the future through Dubas' entire tenure than the team he inherited, despite an unexpected flat cap, and not having multiple elite players on ELCs, which is why you completely ignored the breakdown I provided, and only chose to reply to me after the team goes through a rough stretch. We are not off to a great start this year, but it is way too early to define what we are and will be this year, especially with most of the team playing much differently than their normal.

Take your own advice, take a step back and be objective

I seem to be one of the only ones here doing so.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dubas failed to structure the team properly, but the core also let him down.

If a parent never disciplines their child, who’s fault is it when the child is out of control?

Dubas let the core down by shielding them from all discipline and criticism. It weakened them, and now they are a problem.

 

[DarkKnight]

Imagine the gifs this road trip would have created if we weren’t on the road.

 

[CDN24]

No, I pointed to other teams to show that what we are going through right now that is causing a complete meltdown on this board is not unique to us. It really doesn't mean all of the apocalyptic things that are being suggested.

No, you're trying to use our struggles to differentiate us from "recent winners" and "contenders", even though many of those teams are going through the exact same struggles.

The team has objectively been better and better set up for the future through Dubas' entire tenure than the team he inherited, despite an unexpected flat cap, and not having multiple elite players on ELCs, which is why you completely ignored the breakdown I provided, and only chose to reply to me after the team goes through a rough stretch. We are not off to a great start this year, but it is way too early to define what we are and will be this year, especially with most of the team playing much differently than their normal.

I seem to be one of the only ones here doing so.

Well, you sir are nothing if not consistent. Your confidence is inspiring. I won't debate you further. Your confidence far exceeds my attention span.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Did you know that Minnesota actually has 6 straight first round losses too (and actually failed to win a single game in the 2nd round when they made it the year before that)? I'm guessing not, because it's not endlessly repeated in response to literally everything.

Did you know they replaced two GMs and three coaches in that stretch, and then took the drastic step of living with three years of dead cap space after buying out bad contracts to try and break the cycle?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Did you know they replaced two GMs and three coaches in that stretch, and then took the drastic step of living with three years of dead cap space after buying out bad contracts to try and break the cycle?

So in other words, firing the GM/coach/dumping core players isn't the magic fix-all it's made out to be, and it can leave you in a worse place moving forward?

 

[Stephen]

So in other words, firing the GM/coach/dumping core players isn't the magic fix-all it's made out to be, and it can leave you in a worse place moving forward?

Can’t we just decide to go in a different direction with new faces with no guarantee of results?

 

[Tak7]

Friedman on TJMS:

*Before the weekend games, didn't think Leafs had any intention of making coaching change. As recently as Saturday, doesn't think they considered a coaching change. Team does realize that runway is getting much shorter, but doesn't think they want to change coach.

*Believes that they want to give Keefe more healthy defense (Liljegren & Benn back this week), but acknowledges team know that losing will change the timeline.

*Coaches & players need to work with each other. Doesn't think players & coach are doing that. Thinks their biggest priority is getting Keefe & Marner back on the same page. Marner is too important to the team, and needs to feel comfortable and supported by the coach.

*Believes that Matthews is still resigning in Toronto - doesn't think it will be a long-term extension. Has 0 reason to believe that Matthews is unhappy or has issues.

 

[keonsbitterness]

So in other words, firing the GM/coach/dumping core players isn't the magic fix-all it's made out to be, and it can leave you in a worse place moving forward?

In other words, our results are on a par with the non-descript Minnesota Wild.

 

[Stephen]

In other words, our results are on a par with the non-descript Minnesota Wild.

At least we’ve moved away from the Tampa and Colorado comparisons for now.

 

[daveleaf]

Ok, but he's gone against his own history and instincts. He is responsible for this just like Kyle.

He has to assume some responsibility. That being said a GM usually has the opportunity to change the coach and Dubas had his wish. They haven't performed any better. Sure, regular season is fine but playoffs and tough games they fail. I think Shanny deserves the chance to get it right. I think he needs to get Trotz in there, start to change the culture, get a senior advisor and start to right this ship.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Friedman on TJMS:

*Before the weekend games, didn't think Leafs had any intention of making coaching change. As recently as Saturday, doesn't think they considered a coaching change. Team does realize that runway is getting much shorter, but doesn't think they want to change coach.

*Believes that they want to give Keefe more healthy defense (Liljegren & Benn back this week), but acknowledges team know that losing will change the timeline.

*Coaches & players need to work with each other. Doesn't think players & coach are doing that. Thinks their biggest priority is getting Keefe & Marner back on the same page. Marner is too important to the team, and needs to feel comfortable and supported by the coach.

*Believes that Matthews is still resigning in Toronto - doesn't think it will be a long-term extension. Has 0 reason to believe that Matthews is unhappy or has issues.

1 year x $15 m incoming ......?

 

[Ianturnedbull]

He has to assume some responsibility. That being said a GM usually has the opportunity to change the coach and Dubas had his wish. They haven't performed any better. Sure, regular season is fine but playoffs and tough games they fail. I think Shanny deserves the chance to get it right. I think he needs to get Trotz in there, start to change the culture, get a senior advisor and start to right this ship.

I agree accept that Shanny has been here for 8 years. You're talking about another couple years and to do what? Win a playoff round? He gets an entire decade to win a playoff round?!!!!

 

[Dekes For Days]

In other words, our results are on a par with the non-descript Minnesota Wild.

Actually, our 16-23 record, as unfortunate as it is, is better than Minnesota's 10-23 record over their 6 losses.

 

[Marmoset]

I agree accept that Shanny has been here for 8 years. You're talking about another couple years and to do what? Win a playoff round? He gets an entire decade to win a playoff round?!!!!

Shanahan chose Dubas as GM and has stuck by his vision. There is a case to be made that if Dubas is to go, Shanahan should go as well.

I'm not saying that I would do this if it was my decision, but it would be considered.

 

[leafsfan5]

Friedman on TJMS:

*Before the weekend games, didn't think Leafs had any intention of making coaching change. As recently as Saturday, doesn't think they considered a coaching change. Team does realize that runway is getting much shorter, but doesn't think they want to change coach.

*Believes that they want to give Keefe more healthy defense (Liljegren & Benn back this week), but acknowledges team know that losing will change the timeline.

*Coaches & players need to work with each other. Doesn't think players & coach are doing that. Thinks their biggest priority is getting Keefe & Marner back on the same page. Marner is too important to the team, and needs to feel comfortable and supported by the coach.

*Believes that Matthews is still resigning in Toronto - doesn't think it will be a long-term extension. Has 0 reason to believe that Matthews is unhappy or has issues.

What....what is he going for then?

If it's another 5 year deal I'll take it since we have no power. Get him to commit this summer and then immediately commence a re-tool

 

[keonsbitterness]

Actually, our 16-23 record, as unfortunate as it is, is better than Minnesota's 10-23 record over their 6 losses.

Whoop-dee-doo.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Why can't it be both ways?

Dubas failed to structure the team properly, but the core also let him down.

Because if the core let him down, then the rest of the team construction matters very little. No team has a bottom 6 good enough to drag their core guys through what has mostly been 10 games of ineptitude, and we were at least still able to put up a .500 record.

One constant with every Cup winning team is that your core leads the way and is clicking. Our team, with our core not being totally useless, would easily have one of the best records in the league right now. They help us build leads, put pressure on the other team and wear them down, and generate momentum. That then makes it much easier for the depth guys, the defense, and the goaltending to do their jobs instead of having to constantly figure out a way to overperform.

Dubas has constructed very good teams, but it doesn't matter if the key guys do not play like they should. It would be a problem for literally any team. Unfortunately, and what could be his critical mistake, is he trusted guys who may not have what it takes.