ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

[tinyzombies]

2018-19 Hedman. System might have changed, or a different partner, which could account for ratings change. He’s 27 here which might also be a factor, lots of Cup miles on him now. Here he’s good inzone and avg vs the rush. Stick checks only avg still, for a guy that doesn’t use the body much.

• Poor rating < 78
• Good rating > 84

 

[Theokritos]

Some guys we know had issues sharing the puck, like Mikita and Hull

Mikita had issues sharing the puck? Was he not one of the greatest playmakers of his time?

 

[Voight]

Texarkana will select Defenseman #2 Mark Howe

 

[tinyzombies]

Dryden for me

 

[rmartin65]

With the 81st pick of ATD 2022, the Vancouver Millionaires are pleased to select, Vladislav Tretiak, G!

@Hawkey Town 18 is on the clock

 

[ResilientBeast]

Texarkana will select Defenseman #2 Mark Howe

Good pick was wondering how low he'd go

 

[Batis]

Near equally strong at passing and shooting, fast, strong backchecker, just a bit of toughness.

As close to a jack-of-all trades as you can get, really.

All in a LW package (though technically, he can play C, but you'd have to be crazy to do it)

Also strong on the PK IIRC from Batis' studies on Soviet F's.

To add to this I would say that Firsov also was one of the most unselfish superstar forwards of all time which I personally believe is the main reason for why most of his linemates seem to have performed at their all-time highest level when playing with him. It is for example worth noting that Kharlamov had the highest Soviet player of the year voting share of his career in 71/72 when he was playing on the same line as Firsov.

Another thing worth noting is how much Firsov stood out among his peers when it comes to scoring in games against Czechoslovakia and Sweden during the years leading up to the Summit Series. Because of the rule of not mentioning undrafted players I only left the top 3 on the lists here below. It was originally top 10 lists.

It is worth noting that at the time of the Summit Series Anatoli Firsov was by far the most proven big game performer in European hockey. If we look at the scoring in games between the top 3 teams in Europe (USSR, CSSR and Sweden) over the last 4 major international tournaments of Firsovs international career (1969, 1970, 1971 World Championships and the 1972 Olympics) this is what we get.

Scoring against other Top 3 teams in the time frame between the 1969 WHC and the 1972 Olympics (sorted by PPG among players who played in at least 60 percent of the available games)

1 Anatoli Firsov: 13 gp, 10 g, 7 a, 17 pts (1.308)
2 Valeri Kharlamov: 14 gp, 7 g, 6 a, 13 pts (0.929)
3 Boris Mikhailov: 13 gp, 7 g, 3 a, 10 pts (0.769)

Goalscoring against Top 3 teams in the time frame between the 1969 WHC and the 1972 Olympics (sorted by GPG among players who played in at least 60 percent of the available games)

1 Anatoli Firsov: 13 gp, 10 g (0.769)
2 Boris Mikhailov: 13 gp, 7 g (0.538)
3 Valeri Kharlamov: 14 gp, 7 g (0.500)

As you can see Firsov was very clearly the most productive player in games between the top 3 teams in Europe during this time frame both when it comes to scoring and goalscoring. In fact Firsovs goalscoring stats alone would put him tied with Mikhailov for second place on the points per game list behind only Kharlamov and on top of being by far the most dominant goalscorer Firsov was also the second best playmaker in these games.

 

[The Macho King]

Good pick was wondering how low he'd go

My list had him and Denneny left on it. I decided to finish my first line before I grabbed my third defenseman, but I'm a big Howe fan and I don't think I've had him in an ATD yet.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Nice symmetry that each conference has 4 goalies and they're almost perfectly split by tier

Roy, Sawchuk, Hall, Tretiak
vs
Hasek, Plante, Brodeur, Dryden

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

This guy has a great Norris record as it is, but I was very impressed by some of the Player Polls that @Dreakmur posted in his bio last year showing that even in the 2020 and 2021 seasons his peers considered him a top 4 Dman in the league.

On top of that he has some great playoff and Olympic performances, including being named to the Olympic AS Team in 2014.

Chicago selects Drew Doughty, D

 

[tony d]

Going to pick my goalie here and select Mr.Zero himself, Frank Brimsek.

Next has been pmed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Dryden for me

Dryden was the particular goalie I was thinking of when I said that there were goalies in this range probably a little better than Brodeur at stopping the puck, but without nearly the puck handling ability.

 

[ResilientBeast]

This guy has a great Norris record as it is, but I was very impressed by some of the Player Polls that @Dreakmur posted in his bio last year showing that even in the 2020 and 2021 seasons his peers considered him a top 4 Dman in the league.

On top of that he has some great playoff and Olympic performances, including being named to the Olympic AS Team in 2014.

Chicago selects Drew Doughty, D

View attachment 504828

Nice he's having another strong season...because consensus seemed to be he'd fallen off once the Kings weren't great anymore

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mikita had issues sharing the puck? Was he not one of the greatest playmakers of his time?

Many playmaking centers are at their best with the puck on their sticks as much as possible, through transition and in the offensive zone. Having a winger who is basically a puck hog takes that away from them. Hull/Mikita apparently didn't gel well at even strength.

 

[Theokritos]

Many playmaking centers are at their best with the puck on their sticks as much as possible, through transition and in the offensive zone.

Right, but here is something that an undrafted Russian player wrote in his autobiography about Mikita:

"Our trips to Canada became an annual thing and we got to know the NHL teams pretty well. Gradually we also got to know the hockey clubs in the American cities. (...) Personally, I rooted for the club "Chicago Black Hawks". (...) And this team plays in a manner that is striking and completely unusual for Canadians. Their style of play is closer to the European one. They are happy to use combinations and they play passes skillfully. It has to be said that the tone in this direction is set by Stan Mikita who sees the rink perfectly well."

Having a winger who is basically a puck hog takes that away from them. Hull/Mikita apparently didn't gel well at even strength.

I misinterpreted that sentence as "some guys we know had issues sharing the puck, like Mikita in general and Hull in general", as opposed to "some guys we know had issues sharing the puck, like Mikita nd Hull when they played together". The latter makes more sense, in particular for Mikita.

That said, do we actually know that Hull and Mikita did not gel well when playing together or is that more of an assumption based on the fact that they were mostly kept on separate lines?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That said, do we actually know that Hull and Mikita did not gel well when playing together or is that more of an assumption based on the fact that they were mostly kept on separate lines?

10-15 years ago, the HOH section was filled with posters who actually watched late O6 hockey, and it seemed like "common knowledge" that Mikita and Hull played better away from each other than with each other. I wish I had a better source, but I'm not spending hours looking for one right now.

We do have numerous sources (Sports Illustrated archives, etc) as to Bobby Hull's puck carrying proclivities.

It's not uncommon for two "puck dominant" players to play better apart than together.

It's why "puck dominant" wingers are probably the hardest thing to build around in the ATD (short of Phil Esposito) - many top ATD centers were puck dominant.

 

[tinyzombies]

Doughty's architecte-hockey profile doesn't go back to his Norris year in 2016, but two years (2017-18 below) later he put up the same offensive numbers and same plus minus and his rush defense rating was poor, while his inzone defense was very good. But was his rush rating poor because they played possession and faced alot of counterattacks? Stick checks and puck management beyond poor. No blocks or bodychecking at all. Transition elite, passing excellent, gets into great position to score but can't finish.

• Poor rating < 78
• Good rating > 84

 

[tinyzombies]

Doughty's rating this year. Still very good positionally in his own zone, and improved to average vs the rush (maybe because they no longer play possession, just throwing low percentage pucks at the net and then facing counterattacks all the time). Poor in all other areas defensively (puck management, blocks, bodychecking, stick checks) and now only average in transition. His finishing has improved to average from poor. And his skating is no longer elite, it's merely good. Stretch passing still very good.

• Poor rating < 78
• Good rating > 84

 

[overpass]

Right, but here is something that an undrafted Russian player wrote in his autobiography about Mikita:

"Our trips to Canada became an annual thing and we got to know the NHL teams pretty well. Gradually we also got to know the hockey clubs in the American cities. (...) Personally, I rooted for the club "Chicago Black Hawks". (...) And this team plays in a manner that is striking and completely unusual for Canadians. Their style of play is closer to the European one. They are happy to use combinations and they play passes skillfully. It has to be said that the tone in this direction is set by Stan Mikita who sees the rink perfectly well."



I misinterpreted that sentence as "some guys we know had issues sharing the puck, like Mikita in general and Hull in general", as opposed to "some guys we know had issues sharing the puck, like Mikita nd Hull when they played together". The latter makes more sense, in particular for Mikita.

That said, do we actually know that Hull and Mikita did not gel well when playing together or is that more of an assumption based on the fact that they were mostly kept on separate lines?

Mikita said it himself.

HIS MAJESTY GETS MUGGED AGAIN | Sports Illustrated Vault | SI.com

To the layman, the answer to Hull's center dilemma might seem obvious: give the job to Stan Mikita, who is, after all, one of the best in the game. "I've tried it on occasion," Reay says, "but they don't work well together. Both Stan and Bobby need the puck, and there is only one puck to play with." Mikita agrees. "Bobby wants the puck 15 or 20 feet before he hits the blue line," he says. "I want to keep the puck until I get across the blue line. Our styles are so different that we could never play together regularly."

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mikita said it himself.

HIS MAJESTY GETS MUGGED AGAIN | Sports Illustrated Vault | SI.com

To the layman, the answer to Hull's center dilemma might seem obvious: give the job to Stan Mikita, who is, after all, one of the best in the game. "I've tried it on occasion," Reay says, "but they don't work well together. Both Stan and Bobby need the puck, and there is only one puck to play with." Mikita agrees. "Bobby wants the puck 15 or 20 feet before he hits the blue line," he says. "I want to keep the puck until I get across the blue line. Our styles are so different that we could never play together regularly."

Thanks overpass; SI really heavily covered the Black Hawks didn't they?

 

[Theokritos]

10-15 years ago, the HOH section was filled with posters who actually watched late O6 hockey, and it seemed like "common knowledge" that Mikita and Hull played better away from each other than with each other. I wish I had a better source, but I'm not spending hours looking for one right now.

We do have numerous sources (Sports Illustrated archives, etc) as to Bobby Hull's puck carrying proclivities.

It's not uncommon for two "puck dominant" players to play better apart than together.

It's why "puck dominant" wingers are probably the hardest thing to build around in the ATD (short of Phil Esposito) - many top ATD centers were puck dominant.

Mikita said it himself.

HIS MAJESTY GETS MUGGED AGAIN | Sports Illustrated Vault | SI.com

To the layman, the answer to Hull's center dilemma might seem obvious: give the job to Stan Mikita, who is, after all, one of the best in the game. "I've tried it on occasion," Reay says, "but they don't work well together. Both Stan and Bobby need the puck, and there is only one puck to play with." Mikita agrees. "Bobby wants the puck 15 or 20 feet before he hits the blue line," he says. "I want to keep the puck until I get across the blue line. Our styles are so different that we could never play together regularly."

Thanks a lot! Great to see it spelled out by contemporary observers.

 

[Sturminator]

It's why "puck dominant" wingers are probably the hardest thing to build around in the ATD (short of Phil Esposito) - many top ATD centers were puck dominant.

This seems to be more true of ATD 1st unit players than anything else. There are plenty of centers available later on who didn't need a whole lot of the puck, but finding a 1st line-caliber center (and not merely someone playing on a 1st line) who can cater to a puck dominant wing is quite difficult. Bobby Hull is particularly difficult, as you ideally want a right-handed center, or at least somebody who was known for working well with his left wings. We ended up drafting Ted Kennedy for the job, and he seems like a good fit, but it's hard to think of any higher-rated centers who would really match well with Hull. Frank Nighbor, maybe? It's definitely ATD hard mode, though I think there are still a couple undrafteds who would also be viable in the role.

edit: we even considered reuniting Hull and Esposito due to their brief chemistry in Chicago, but I'm glad we didn't. Such a line in an ATD setting would be...imbalanced, to say the least.

 

[The Macho King]

This seems to be more true of ATD 1st unit players than anything else. There are plenty of centers available later on who didn't need a whole lot of the puck, but finding a 1st line-caliber center (and not merely someone playing on a 1st line) who can cater to a puck dominant wing is quite difficult. Bobby Hull is particularly difficult, as you ideally want a right-handed center, or at least somebody who was known for working well with his left wings. We ended up drafting Ted Kennedy for the job, and he seems like a good fit, but it's hard to think of any higher-rated centers who would really match well with Hull. Frank Nighbor, maybe? It's definitely ATD hard mode, though I think there are still a couple undrafteds who would also be viable in the role.

I would take the lesson from Reay here, and just have Hull anchor his own line and use your next forward picks to create two scoring lines. Hull as a "second liner" is beyond luxury casting.

 

[The Macho King]

Doughty's rating this year. Still very good positionally in his own zone, and improved to average vs the rush. Poor in all other areas defensively (puck management, blocks, bodychecking, stick checks) and now only average in transition. His finishing has improved to average from poor. And his skating is no longer elite, it's merely good. Stretch passing still very good.

View attachment 504851

• Poor rating < 78
• Good rating > 84

Just FYI - this shit isn't going to impact my analysis of a player at all.

 

[VanIslander]

... create two scoring lines. Hull as a "second liner" is beyond luxury casting.

Gretzky, Messier
Sakic, Forsberg
Crosby, Malkin

Common on great teams.