ATD 2021 Draft Thread III

[rmartin65]

Stamkos is better, but it’s pretty close. He’s a much better goal scorer, but Giroux is better at pretty much everything else, right?

Outside of playmaking (where I agree Giroux has a decided edge), it's probably pretty even. Neither have a particularly great record for defense, but neither are what I would call black holes. Giroux is probably a bit more aggressive, but I think he gets more mileage out of that PO series against the Pens (and that hit against Crosby) than is deserved in that regard.

I do think Stamkos is more flexible offensively than Giroux; yeah, he is primarily a goal scorer, but he has shown more playmaking chops in the last couple years, which I think speaks to his abilities and head for the game.

I don't think Giroux is a bad pick here, or anything- I think he fits as a top-6 LW here. I just don't think he is particularly close to Stamkos at C.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Outside of playmaking (where I agree Giroux has a decided edge), it's probably pretty even. Neither have a particularly great record for defense, but neither are what I would call black holes. Giroux is probably a bit more aggressive, but I think he gets more mileage out of that PO series against the Pens (and that hit against Crosby) than is deserved in that regard.

I do think Stamkos is more flexible offensively than Giroux; yeah, he is primarily a goal scorer, but he has shown more playmaking chops in the last couple years, which I think speaks to his abilities and head for the game.

I don't think Giroux is a bad pick here, or anything- I think he fits as a top-6 LW here. I just don't think he is particularly close to Stamkos at C.

If Stamkos had winger credentials similar to Giroux's he'd be long gone IMO

Stamkos has been on the wing with some regularity right @The Macho King ?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Glitch, via proxy will select:

Ilya Kovalchuk, W

Kovalchuk is pretty good value now, if you can use him.

 

[overpass]

Are you Joe Pelletier, Larry Brooks or Scotty Bowman? Or is your opinion not in your roster thread?

Let's just say you'll never see me draft one particular Italian-American coach.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Who can I leave a double list to, if I have to go soon?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Who can I leave a double list to, if I have to go soon?

I'm here the rest of the day

 

[ImporterExporter]

Who can I leave a double list to, if I have to go soon?

Same here bud. Big snow/ice storm here .I'm going nowhere.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Thanks guys but I left it to TDMM before seeing your posts.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Same here bud. Big snow/ice storm here .I'm going nowhere.

This storm is coming right on top of us tomorrow, I can feel it.

 

[The Macho King]

If Stamkos had winger credentials similar to Giroux's he'd be long gone IMO

Stamkos has been on the wing with some regularity right @The Macho King ?

More since the emergence of Cirelli. His production has been in line with his C production and he still takes some faceoffs on his strong side. RW for the record.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Let's just say you'll never see me draft one particular Italian-American coach.

You're in the Hall of Fame!?

 

[The Macho King]

More since the emergence of Cirelli. His production has been in line with his C production and he still takes some faceoffs on his strong side. RW for the record.

After saying this I realized he also spent a good chunk at LW too when Kucherov was healthy. I'd say he is mainly a C but I don't think he loses too much value on either W. Theres enough proof of concept there I think.

 

[Dreakmur]

Giroux has no business at RW in this. I outlined this above but apparently nobody read it.

He's a C/LW. I was the one who pushed his transfer out to LW and asked the mods on the Flyers board for specific breakdowns of his positional play. He's been a LW dating back to before 2017-18, which was his best offensive season to date. He followed that up with 85 points in 18-19.

He's very good in the dot which adds to his value. He can play LW and still take draws if you have a C who is weak there.

He was RW from rookie season through 2011. He moves to center when the two previous centers were traded.

 

[BenchBrawl]

(Disclaimer in the interest of transparency- I have Stamkos, so I have a vested interest in Stamkos looking better than Giroux)

I can't really see that. Outside of VsX, I think Stamkos is ahead of Giroux by a fair amount- in the years they overlapped at C (throwing out their rookie seasons, so 09-10 through 16-17), Stamkos finished ahead of Giroux in AS voting in every year he wasn't injured for a significant portion of the season (13-14 and 16-17). Add in 2 Richards, and I think Stamkos is comfortably ahead. They are close in VsX, but that looks to be about it.

True, but Giroux was one of the best in the playoffs; Stamkos is one of the worst stars of his era in the post-season. His team has proven time after time again that they didn't need him. For all his points, he's a passenger.

 

[ImporterExporter]

He was RW from rookie season through 2011. He moves to center when the two previous centers were traded.

There is nothing of note in those seasons. If someone plays him at RW in this, they are wasting him. His best seasons, his only ATD worthy seasons are at C and LW.

 

[Dreakmur]

There is nothing of note in those seasons. If someone plays him at RW in this, they are wasting him. His best seasons, his only ATD worthy seasons are at C and LW.

11th in points and 8th in assists is an ATD worthy season

 

[ImporterExporter]

LL has selected via messenger:

Darryl Sittler, C

 

[BenchBrawl]

11th in points and 8th in assists is an ATD worthy season

He's barely more passable than Bergeron there. Put him on your third line LW, he'll look great there and easy to find a center for. Also super easy to fill that Marchand-Barry RW spot later on.

 

[rmartin65]

True, but Giroux was one of the best in the playoffs; Stamkos is one of the worst stars of his era in the post-season. His team has proven time after time again that they didn't need him. For all his points, he's a passenger.

I disagree on your premise, but we also disagree about the importance of playoff play- whereas you value it highly, I value the larger sample size of the regular season.

 

[Dreakmur]

He's barely more passable than Bergeron there. Put him on your third line LW, he'll look great there and easy to find a center for. Also super easy to fill that Marchand-Barry RW spot later on.

It wasn’t just that Bergeron had almost no wing experience, it was the fact that you just removed his biggest strengths.

Giroux proved that he can effectively play every forward position. What are people expecting?

 

[BenchBrawl]

It wasn’t just that Bergeron had almost no wing experience, it was the fact that you just removed his biggest strengths.

Giroux proved that he can effectively play every forward position. What are people expecting?

I don't know what to tell you. My Bergeron comment was over the top, but Giroux can't play at RW in the ATD without a serious knock on his value. I don't accept players out of position just because they played a little bit there without doing anything even remotely close to their peak.

 

[Dreakmur]

I don't know what to tell you. My Bergeron comment was over the top, but Giroux can't play at RW in the ATD without a serious knock on his value. I don't accept players out of position just because they played a little bit there without doing anything even remotely close to their peak.

What’s the knock? He proved he could do it well.

 

[ImporterExporter]

My biggest issue is that there is little consistency in moving players off their position. Players have been shat on with MORE accomplishments at secondary positions. We can start pulling past quotes if need be.

I'm sorry, but 11th in points/8th in assists is not that noteworthy. Not at this level. Certainly not enough to make me go, "yeah I'm giving him his 88 VsX by being out there at RW", when he didn't prove he could score at that level.

He proved he could score at a premium rate at C and LW. His best seasons, are all at those positions.

What's his VsX as a RW?

He can absolutely be played out there in the ATD, but I'm not going to be giving him anywhere close to his full value as a player. I don't think I'm remotely off base saying that either. At least not based on how harsh we've been on these exact same situations in the past.

 

[BenchBrawl]

What’s the knock? He proved he could do it well.

Lemieux proved he could play LW well, should we start putting him there without expecting a drop in value? He'd be more valuable as a LWer, a weaker position. It's the ATD tradition; you play players where they were at their peak, or accept the knock on value because it's still worth it (the LWers like Zetterberg). You can't be surprised by this. There's a reason I was desperately looking for a RW and didn't pick Giroux.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I disagree on your premise, but we also disagree about the importance of playoff play- whereas you value it highly, I value the larger sample size of the regular season.

Fair. Probably comes from my mentality of preferring those who show up when it counts rather than the everyday grinders. Both have merit and are necessary in life, not denying it.